Author Topic: Multipliers - RCI and Power  (Read 1184 times)

Offline I-KP

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Multipliers - RCI and Power
« on: April 26, 2014, 07:41:52 am »
Ayup all.

I'm very much enjoying TLF; it's another 'high concept' game that Arcen are developing a healthy reputation for developing.  Nice work, gents and gals. 

Clearly TLF is a complicated beast and without a well-crafted Wiki the only way to find out what's in the game is to get stuck in and let the confusion begin.  :)  That's okay, it's a good kind of confusion.  I do have a couple of observations and they largely hinge around multipliers: some being too weak and others being too strong.

Firstly, RCI.  (Residential / Commercial / Industrial?  That's a SimCity holdover isn't it?  Not sure it applies to this game directly but I suppose the concept is similar.)  Unless I'm mistaken, and the chances of that are rather high, the RCI modifiers appear to be minimally impactful upon a planet's capacity to develop.  If a race has a planet suitability factor of >1 then the RCI values seem to be only one step away from being meaningless, which in turn has a direct impact on the worth of the various missions available that influence RCI; why bother doing them if there are other missions that net equal or greater credits /and/ have an impactful side effect?  If the RCI values were percentages that were directly applied to a characteristic would they not gain some relevance?  At the moment I turn RCI display off and ignore the RCI missions because they really don't seem to be worth worrying about.

Secondly, power bonuses.  Here we go from minimally impactful multipliers to crazy multipliers that rapidly get out of hand.  Accepting that I don't have a great understanding of the maths behind things like Science power, observations seem to indicate that after a race has started to accumulate science multipliers through tech and buildings their Science power grows at an extraordinary rate.  For example, the Skylaxians in one of my games now have a Science rating of 28,000 whereas every other race has between 3 and 250.  When other races come into contact with the Skylaxians it's like the Pakled making first contact with the Culture, and that massive gap in technological capacity sprang up in less than ten years.  The same sort of thing happens with Ground force power with some of the other races.  As I said, I don't know what the maths is behind values like these but I suggest that a pretty heavy form of diminishing returns function needs to be applied.

That having all been said, I do appreciate the asymmetry that this game presents us with, but the above to examples do stand out as being outliers even within the aforementioned accepted context.

Good job, team!

(It's been a while since I last visited these forums, not since the earlier days of AI War where I was able to contribute a not insignificant amount of gfx and ideas; I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when I see stuff I a came up with being shown on some of the official screenshots -- when playing with friends they're now pretty bored of me saying "I drew that / that was my idea" every nine minutes -- with my greatest claim to internal Arcen fame being the Riot starship concept and gfx.  Remember the early 'discussions' about adding in modularity?  Ah, thems were the days...)
Atmospheric & Lithospheric Reticulator,
Post-accretion Protoplanet Aesthetic Seeding Team,
Celestial Body Design & Procurement Division,
Magrathea Pan-Galactic Planets Corp.,
Magrathea.

Offline kosmoface

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 09:04:10 am »
I agree with the RCI Values. This mechanic is way too unimportant.

Offline GC13

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 10:46:25 am »
The RCI values can give a small bonus to planetary compatibility (I saw it go as high as +30%), but it's on the low end that they can really tank it.

Really, I think RCI values should be additive rather than multiplicative. The only issue with that is that I've seen the planetary compatibility be boosted up above twenty by some races, so what good is the +3 that would be a huge deal when your best race has a 3.0 planet?
Furthermore, it is my opinion that Hari must be destroyed.

Offline ObliqueFault

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2014, 11:08:24 am »
Well, there are a couple of non-obvious ways high RCI values can benefit the player. First, a race with high RCI values tends to be respected by the other species, by means of "Wellbeing Admiration" modifiers to race relations. Second, if the Boarines have positive RCI numbers their regent will be much more likely to adopt the Solar Unity agenda, which can be handy. Though you're right about the numbers having very little effect on a planet directly.

Regarding power multipliers, I haven't been paying enough attention to those numbers to offer much, though I have noticed that certain species will completely dominate in science, giving them an unstoppable edge in the endgame. I agree that there should be some balance changes to give the less scientific species a chance. As I-KP suggested, a diminishing returns mechanic on science buildings and outposts could help, as might a method for the underdogs to steal tech from the more advanced species.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2014, 06:39:38 pm »
Thanks for the input, guys.  I'm glad it's not just me re the RCI thing; I was beginning to wonder if I was missing a vital trick and simply not seeing their importance.  Certainly, turning the RCI off and not bothering with that side of the game at all didn't seem to impinge upon my game chances, or my enjoyment, but it does feel like a shame that such a large chunk of the game mechanics can be so readily ignored.
Atmospheric & Lithospheric Reticulator,
Post-accretion Protoplanet Aesthetic Seeding Team,
Celestial Body Design & Procurement Division,
Magrathea Pan-Galactic Planets Corp.,
Magrathea.

Offline Misery

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 12:26:00 am »
Ayup all.

I'm very much enjoying TLF; it's another 'high concept' game that Arcen are developing a healthy reputation for developing.  Nice work, gents and gals. 

Clearly TLF is a complicated beast and without a well-crafted Wiki the only way to find out what's in the game is to get stuck in and let the confusion begin.  :)  That's okay, it's a good kind of confusion.  I do have a couple of observations and they largely hinge around multipliers: some being too weak and others being too strong.

Firstly, RCI.  (Residential / Commercial / Industrial?  That's a SimCity holdover isn't it?  Not sure it applies to this game directly but I suppose the concept is similar.)  Unless I'm mistaken, and the chances of that are rather high, the RCI modifiers appear to be minimally impactful upon a planet's capacity to develop.  If a race has a planet suitability factor of >1 then the RCI values seem to be only one step away from being meaningless, which in turn has a direct impact on the worth of the various missions available that influence RCI; why bother doing them if there are other missions that net equal or greater credits /and/ have an impactful side effect?  If the RCI values were percentages that were directly applied to a characteristic would they not gain some relevance?  At the moment I turn RCI display off and ignore the RCI missions because they really don't seem to be worth worrying about.

Secondly, power bonuses.  Here we go from minimally impactful multipliers to crazy multipliers that rapidly get out of hand.  Accepting that I don't have a great understanding of the maths behind things like Science power, observations seem to indicate that after a race has started to accumulate science multipliers through tech and buildings their Science power grows at an extraordinary rate.  For example, the Skylaxians in one of my games now have a Science rating of 28,000 whereas every other race has between 3 and 250.  When other races come into contact with the Skylaxians it's like the Pakled making first contact with the Culture, and that massive gap in technological capacity sprang up in less than ten years.  The same sort of thing happens with Ground force power with some of the other races.  As I said, I don't know what the maths is behind values like these but I suggest that a pretty heavy form of diminishing returns function needs to be applied.

That having all been said, I do appreciate the asymmetry that this game presents us with, but the above to examples do stand out as being outliers even within the aforementioned accepted context.

Good job, team


Aye, I can agree with this.  The numbers really need working on.

The various RCI values seem to need ALOT of points added or subtracted before they have an effect.... and with the player only able to very slowly influence this, there's hardly any change when you do this.  If I increase one of these values by say, 15, this takes some effort, and it should have a very noticable effect.  Instead it needs to be more like 3000 for it to be noticable, if that.

Agreed with the power bonuses as well.  Particularly the ground bits.  A couple of races are stupidly powerful on the ground... while others have literally zero, and I'm not sure that there's any way to change that.


Quote
(It's been a while since I last visited these forums, not since the earlier days of AI War where I was able to contribute a not insignificant amount of gfx and ideas; I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when I see stuff I a came up with being shown on some of the official screenshots -- when playing with friends they're now pretty bored of me saying "I drew that / that was my idea" every nine minutes -- with my greatest claim to internal Arcen fame being the Riot starship concept and gfx.  Remember the early 'discussions' about adding in modularity?  Ah, thems were the days...)

Ah yes, haha, I love this bit too when it happens. Not just with Arcen, but with other devs too, it's neat to go in and be able to say "yeah, that thing, that thing was my idea/fault".  Though it also leads to rather silly situations, where I might be getting frustrated and say "Argh, this thing, this thing keeps screwing me up!  Driving me crazy!  Who came up wi-  ....oh.  Right.  I did. Er."

Is one reason I love dealing with indie devs, they actually LISTEN and consider things that players say.  Which is pretty great.

Offline I-KP

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 07:21:45 am »
Is one reason I love dealing with indie devs, they actually LISTEN and consider things that players say.  Which is pretty great.
Never a truer word spoken.
Atmospheric & Lithospheric Reticulator,
Post-accretion Protoplanet Aesthetic Seeding Team,
Celestial Body Design & Procurement Division,
Magrathea Pan-Galactic Planets Corp.,
Magrathea.

Offline Conductorbosh

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Re: Multipliers - RCI and Power
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 03:57:23 pm »
Yeah, Medical/Economic/Environmental/Public Order all need to have a greater effect on the planet than they currently do now. If a planet has -3000 economic, their ship production should be slowed to a crawl. If a planet has -2000 medical, they should have a much higher death than birth rate (in my experience having terrible, terrible medical scores only matters if a virus breaks out).

I have a mantis ticket about this issue (the general problem of non-impactful RCI modifiers) here: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=14747