Author Topic: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...  (Read 5023 times)

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« on: October 02, 2014, 08:02:03 am »
So, I've got a nice little Federation going.  My initial strategy was predicated on using the Andors and Skylaxians, but the Thoraxians killed off the Andors early, giving them two planets.  That took some adjustment, but I managed it.  A Federation coalesced around the Skylaxians and Burlusts.  I used the Skylaxians to pull in the Peltians, and I recruited the Acutians on my own.
That left:
  • The Evucks (my starting race).  I had decided already that they wouldn't make it, so I let them stew in their own juices.  There was plenty of time to kill them off.
  • The Thoraxians.  They killed off the Andors early in the game, so I found it necessary to support other races against them.  They got pretty ticked at me over time, so I decided they would eventually have to die with the Evucks.
  • The Boarines.  By the time the Acutians got pulled in to the Federation, the Boarines were one of the strongest races in the system militarily.  Only the Acutians were stronger.
So the Boarines were next on my list of races to get into the Federation.  Unfortunately, the Thoraxians' early conquest of the Andors led directly to a scenario where the Thoraxians could form a Protectorate of all the remaining non-Federation races.  Meaning the Boarines automatically allied with the Thoraxians and the Evucks, and not even the Skylaxians could invite them into the Federation because none of the Protectorate members would break away unless the Protectorate broke up.
So, how does one break up a Thoraxian Protectorate?  The helpful tooltip for the Protectorate emblem says the only way is to destroy the Thoraxians.  Fair enough, I planned to destroy them anyway, but I got that war going several years of game time ago and even with all the Federation races ganging up on them (Peltians, Skylaxians, Acutians, and Burlusts), that's taking much longer than it ought.
The Boarines are still friendly to me...if my influence with them rises high enough (and/or their attitude towards another Protectorate member falls low enough), can I talk them into leaving the Protectorate on their own?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 08:40:06 am »
Well, killing the Thoraxians is the main way, but if you kill all the other races in the protectorate then the thoraxians will be left alone and can be coerced into the federation at that point, too.

In some of the alliance types, like the Solar Axis Pact and Union of Independent States, you can sow dissent between the members and have members break off.  With the Thoraxian Protectorate, all of the races in the protectorate have pledged part of their strength to the Thoraxians, and the latter rule through fear.  So there's no breaking them off with that particular one.  The Thoraxians are getting a 1.2x multiplier to their ship production for each of the other races in the protectorate, while each of those races is at 0.8x instead.

So one of the biggest problems you probably have is that the Thoraxians are being too speedy in making new armadas.  If you can slow or disrupt that, then that will create more of an opening for you.

The ground power of the thoraxians is also frankly rather insane, particularly on their home turf.  You can bomb them, but the Skylaxians refuse to do that.  The peltians are really good at it, but unfortunately they are with the thoraxians in your game.  The Burlusts on the other hand are the only race that really can hold a candle to the thoraxians in a ground fight.  You could focus on getting their ground power even stronger.

You might find yourself in a war stalemate for a while with the protectorate, in which case directly going for war would just continue the stalemate.  A way to get around that would be to try to keep the thoraxians contained while at the same time focusing your main efforts on technology: the main weak spot of the thoraxians.  Unfortunately the evucks are also very good at technology, and they are freaking thieves as well.  So it might be in your best interest to snuff them out and THEN work on your techs.  That way they can't steal techs and then share with everybody else in the protectorate.  Killing them would also remove the multiplier they were providing to the thoraxian manufacturing, which is a big plus.

The Skylaxians are by far the best scientific race in the game, and the thoraxians and the peltians are the worst, and the boarines are not great, so you could outpace them within a few decades (handled with super-fast-forward in dispatches for techs, of course -- not just sitting around).

Another way to go, if you aren't going to go for tech supremacy, would be to try and ruin the planets of the thoraxians in various ways.  You are very fortunate to have the Acutians on your side, because this is one of their specialties.  If you are fed up enough, you can just have them slam a moon into the thoraxian planet and that is that.  You have to work on making sure the best industries are in power in order to really get the most out of that, though.  You can also dump toxic waste on their planet over and over again, as TotalBiscuit found, heh.  That has been nerfed since the time period of his video, though, in the form of other races getting increasingly disillusioned by you if you do that.  Which can actually cause the federation to break up, if I recall correctly (check the betrayal percentages in the federation progress screen to see if that changes at all).

Hope that helps!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 09:59:46 am »
Actually, the Peltians are in the Federation already.  I formed the Federation with the Skylaxians and Burlusts, and then I used the Skylaxians' influence with the Peltians to convince the Peltians to join.  The Acutians were bought in on the strength of my influence and a bunch of credit.  That's when I tried to go after the Boarines, but they joined the Protectorate between me leaving the Acutian homeworld and arriving at the Boarine homeworld.  :-\
My first thought was actually to try wrecking the two planets the Thoraxians have.  Can't do jack to their Public Order RCI (beyond driving it down to 0), but all their other RCIs on one of their planets is well negative, with Environmental actually being below -400.
I had been trying to reduce the Evucks' economy along with sabotaging their buildings, which had had some impact.  The Burlusts have a serious feud going with the Evucks, and they make occasional attack runs on them.  I've been so focused on the Thoraxians, though, that breaking down the Evucks' capabilities hasn't been a priority.
I've considered using the Acutian toxic waste dumping trick several times, but the negative impact on my influences with everyone else is way too heavy.  Ditto the planetcrackers.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 10:26:05 am »
Ah, whoops, my mistake on the Peltians.  Well, if you can focus on getting them even better orbital bombardment capabilities, and get their population growth higher than ever, and get their shipbuilding high... they'll make a splash on the thoraxian planets, heh.

There is a bug at the moment with the way RCI works with the birth rates that I am actually in the process of fixing right now, and once that is fixed you may have an easier time in general with the thoraxians not breeding more than they should given their poor medical RCI.  I should also note that the public order can't go negative for the thoraxians because they are a hivemind.

Makes good sense on the issues with the acutians there.

There are a couple of other options that I have in mind coming up for the player in order to help give more options with situations like this, but I'm not sure if they will be in today, or if that will slide to tomorrow.  I think you already have a solid array of options that can get the job done, but a lot of them are longer-term things that drag out the game in a way that I'm not feeling is always positive.  Sometimes a long and arduous campaign is really fun, but I do feel like the game is trending to that a bit too frequently in recent versions.

Stay tuned for those things -- and in the meantime, I hope some of the other ideas are helpful. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2014, 10:44:32 am »
Ah, whoops, my mistake on the Peltians.  Well, if you can focus on getting them even better orbital bombardment capabilities, and get their population growth higher than ever, and get their shipbuilding high... they'll make a splash on the thoraxian planets, heh.
:D

There is a bug at the moment with the way RCI works with the birth rates that I am actually in the process of fixing right now, and once that is fixed you may have an easier time in general with the thoraxians not breeding more than they should given their poor medical RCI.  I should also note that the public order can't go negative for the thoraxians because they are a hivemind.
I was wondering about that.  I had driven medical so far down that it seemed the death rate should start increasing exponentially, and the Thoraxians were still outbreeding their own reduced lifespans.  The Peltians are putting a dent in that, with all the bombardment tech I've given them, and a bit of coop research will increase that further (depending on what's available).  Hopefully, your RCI fixes will accelerate that.

There are a couple of other options that I have in mind coming up for the player in order to help give more options with situations like this, but I'm not sure if they will be in today, or if that will slide to tomorrow.  I think you already have a solid array of options that can get the job done, but a lot of them are longer-term things that drag out the game in a way that I'm not feeling is always positive.  Sometimes a long and arduous campaign is really fun, but I do feel like the game is trending to that a bit too frequently in recent versions.
Long slogs are OK as long as I can see progress, even if that progress takes the form of 2 steps forward and 1 step back.  Until I thought to get the Peltians to bomb the tar out of the Thoraxians, though, this battle was more like the Thoraxians simply absorbing almost everything I could throw at them.  That gets frustrating fast.
What's your time estimate on the RCI fixes?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2014, 10:47:46 am »
All makes sense!

On the RCI fixes... maybe around 2 hours, I'd say.  If you have a savegame you can upload of your particular scenario, and point out where you think there are problems, I can check it against my fixes before doing a release as a sanity check.  I've got a number of other people's saves as well for the same purpose, but more saves never hurt when checking something like this. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2014, 11:58:00 am »
On the RCI fixes... maybe around 2 hours, I'd say.  If you have a savegame you can upload of your particular scenario, and point out where you think there are problems, I can check it against my fixes before doing a release as a sanity check.  I've got a number of other people's saves as well for the same purpose, but more saves never hurt when checking something like this. ;)
If I was at home, I'd be happy to get you an upload, but I'm at work right now.  Actually, I was just wondering whether it would come today. :)  Tonight I'll play with it and see what happens.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2014, 12:03:05 pm »
Not a problem at all!  For all I knew you were in Europe, so you would be home by now. :)  Anyway, if you wind up with issues in your save after the new version, then do feel free to send it over and I can take a look at it for the version after that.  Thanks!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2014, 02:10:49 pm »
Well I'm glad you're at work, because this is taking me more than just a couple of hours, heh.  I'll be done before 5pm EST today, but boy this is a bigger job than I expected.  I actually already have fixed the bulk of what was likely affecting you births/deaths-wise, but there are a number of related things that needed smoothing out.  Still working on those.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Tayrtahn

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2014, 05:58:41 pm »
Well, killing the Thoraxians is the main way, but if you kill all the other races in the protectorate then the thoraxians will be left alone and can be coerced into the federation at that point, too.

Hm. I'm in a similar situation in my game, and I'm not finding this to be true.

My federation consists of the Andors, Skylaxians, Peltians, Burlusts, and Boarines. The Acutians were killed off very early. When I finally coerced the Burlusts into the federation, the Thoraxians and Evuck formed the Thoraxian Protectorate. After a while, the Evuck were wiped out by the Burlusts, but the Protectorate remained intact, with the Thoraxians as the only members. I've absolutely trashed the RCI on the Thoraxian homeworld and the entire federation has been assaulting them for decades, but they just won't give up!

Here's the solar system view: http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/22840491829295414/C1A624DB6396BF735EDFF494CB314F2B15E94A80/

The Hive Queens are killed by drones the moment they come to power. Looking at the numbers, the federation has enough ground combat strength to wipe them out, but I've never seen the invading ground forces number go over about 4b. If the Thoraxians weren't in their own Protectorate, I might be able to convince them to join me for medical reasons, but that's not an option since they're apparently committed to their alliance of one.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 07:30:51 pm »
Gah, sorry!  It should work in 1.603: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=The_Last_Federation_Post-1.0_Release_Notes#Version_1.603

* Fixed a bug where the Thoraxian Protectorate would still remain if only the Thoraxians remained in it (all the other races being dead that had been members of it).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Tayrtahn

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 09:23:11 pm »
And that's why I love Arcen Games.  :D

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 10:22:50 pm »
:)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 11:41:31 am »
:D Thanks, Chris, this game looks much more hopeful now.  The new resource excess mechanic makes things interesting.  The Thoraxians have only one planet left, so I need to knock their RCIs there down hard.

Offline steelwing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
Re: How to shut down a Thoraxian Protectorate...
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2014, 08:52:19 pm »
:D And I just won!  The Thoraxians proved to be tougher nuts to crack than expected.  Not so tough they could take all their RCIs being plunged to -300 and below.