Federation point : this is a mistake, they need to go away.

[kasnavada]

I've been playing a bit with the 1.005 and the federation points need to go.

In the particular game I'm in, I've been WAITING for those points to rise above 400 but relations between races are already above 90, eveyone likes me and wars are a rare matter. My opinion is that it's slowing the game down with no particular goal nor reason. There are already is goals to fill in order to get races to like each other. We already had to have good relations with the races, good relations between races in the federation, enough credits / other currency, and now federations points on top of it ? That's too much, especially since the first 3 ways to get a federation in the 1.004 needed way more polish. And it's going to be a pain to balance one more mechanic against the 3 others anyway.

In short: even if there was other ways to win federation points, it does not bring anything meaningful  to the game. Current mechanics do every thing they are supposed to help with.

I'm going to move back to 1.004.

PS: I made an effort and finished that game, I had to wait until 3051 to get enough federation points with all races...
Relations were good enough by 3015, 3020 depending on the race... Also the tooltip is broken as races convincing others show the account of federation points of the "convincing" instead of the "convinced"... This kind of balance problem will be permanent as it will ultimately be very difficult to get all limiters to rise at about the same rate, letting players think that one of the mechanic is trivial and the other one needs work: therefore they'll ask to get rid of the inconsequential ones.

This finished game further encourages me to ask for this feature to go away. Anything that adds to federation points should add to credits / relations between races mechanics instead of creating another mechanic whose only effect is to do what other mechanics already do.

Submitted a mantis for this:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=14743

[x4000]

Bear in mind that you're looking at the earliest form of this, and it's not properly balanced yet.  The nature of a beta branch version, at first in particular.

The reason why federation points are absolutely needed:

1. Influence and attitude can both be randomly high very early in the game for various reasons, and can even be farmed to some degree.  This can make for extremely quick and exploitable games.

2. Influence and attitude need to be able to work like they currently do because they affect all sorts of things like the availability of deals, the wars between races, and other things.  Changes here are not advisable.

3. Having a mechanism for reflecting not just how races feel about each other and about you, but how they feel about the idea of a federation in general, makes a goodly amount of sense and is distinct from the other two things, as well as being something that can be balanced without impacting #2.

TLDR: It is something that is in serious need of balance, and I can see why it annoys you with it building up too slowly right now among other things, but trust me the core idea is very much needed based on my observations of player reports with what is happening in games, etc.

[x4000]

Changing my mind on this, thinking about it more.  On reflection, you are right.

[lifehole]

I've stated this already in another thread, but yeah, I'm not opposed to the idea of federation points, as I believe that it's a good balancing factor, but: It needs balancing in the form of situational awareness. If all of a sudden the robo-capitalists take 3 planets and you are on good terms with the other races, federation points should increase as a result. It makes the game more dynamic for the player rather than just sitting back and waiting/dispatching the entire game, it's the player reacting to situations formed by the simulation.

[x4000]

Yep, that's ultimately what I've realized.  In a lot of cases, the whole thing with the federation points is just too... arbitrary-feeling.  It's very spreadsheet-ish.  The underlying thing that they were trying to solve is still a thing, but needs a more creative solution.

[lifehole]

Yep, that's ultimately what I've realized.  In a lot of cases, the whole thing with the federation points is just too... arbitrary-feeling.  It's very spreadsheet-ish.  The underlying thing that they were trying to solve is still a thing, but needs a more creative solution.

Aye, I'd agree there, and I think that's pretty much been the community complaint over this weekend. It's just amazing that you listen and improve/respond/adapt to what the community said over a two day period, it's really a sign of a great game developer. Er, good job.

[x4000]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I would have gotten to it sooner, but I was solo-dadding most of the weekend because my wife was out of town, and I came down pretty sick, too.  Bleck.  Nice to be back in the saddle now.

[GC13]

I don't think the concept of Federation Points should be completely discarded; maybe they won't survive, but we do need some things other than Influence that we can affect. Maybe FP are too arbitrary, but if more specific measures of a race's need for military security, scientific advancement, and economic gain can be worked in. All of these things benefit from an alliance, and it's the player's job to make sure the Federation is the best alliance around.

[x4000]

Right.  Federation points need to go specifically because they can't really encompass those various things very well.

[GC13]

I think they could. I think they could be sufficient as a method for measuring those things if you added ways to affect point gains and losses.

It sounds like you've decided "sufficient" isn't good enough though, and I find it hard to argue with such logic.

[x4000]

Yeah, I haven't decided exactly what to do yet on that front, but more is needed.  The current biggest issue, though, is that the influence and attitude and credit requirements for joining the federation were simply too low, out of sync with actual values that are now seen in games.  That's the first thing I'm fixing.

[madcow]

What about requiring a certain number of races be space faring as well? This might seem arbitrary, but I noticed one of the complaints was being able to build a federation up before everybody was space faring then grabbing the others one at a time as they popped up. Or the time for races to become space faring getting shortened might have the same effect.

[x4000]

What about requiring a certain number of races be space faring as well? This might seem arbitrary, but I noticed one of the complaints was being able to build a federation up before everybody was space faring then grabbing the others one at a time as they popped up. Or the time for races to become space faring getting shortened might have the same effect.

A very good point.  I'm putting in some changes regarding this, too.

[GC13]

I'm looking at those patch notes, and those requirements seem rather stringent. 400 Influence required with the Thoraxians? I don't think I've ever had that much Influence with a faction. 200 is hard enough to get, and pretty much has to involve making another race hate you.

The increase in racial attitude required to have a race invite another into the Federation can also be problematic. Is this patch going to add more ways than just trade routes to make races like each other (allowing trade routes to have their attitude bonus weakened), or is this simply to make the player wait longer for the trade routes to do their job?

[x4000]

The patch notes are still partial.  The general-purpose join requirements are becoming a lot more stringent, yes, but there are also new contextual ways opening up for races to join (one of those has been added).

The idea is to make the general-purpose "hey sure, why not subordinate our government?" options a lot more stringent and slower to get, but to make more contextual things where it's like "okay, this benefits me strongly RIGHT NOW, you've got me convinced."

For some races like the Thoraxians, if you don't start with them in the federation, they're supposed to be bloody hard to get in there, too, heh.