[Deprecated] Highest Priority Development Interest Poll [Updated for 1.016]

[Misery]

I.... don't understand what's going on.  This forum, the steam forum, reddit... ghost towns.  I go to stream on twitch and TLF isn't even listed as a game.  This isn't a trivial or bad game, it should be evoking discussion.  At least in mantis you can see some discussion.  I think the devs should maybe try being active in the forums instead of pushing everything to mantis. I mean there's like literally 3 posts(not threads. posts...) a day to read, I think that's manageable.  I know I don't feel very inclined to discuss things in the forum because they basically say they're just going to read mantis.  That means I gotta make 1 post to discuss, and then a mantis ticket as well.  It's easier to just go with the mantis ticket.  I don't think having a QA ticket platform as the primary place to discuss things is a good idea, like at all.  It's good that stuff goes into mantis, but you can't just have discussions there because you don't want to fill up the ticket with a bunch of stuff.  That leads to just no one talking about much of anything.  Or the primary communication about the game being about shit like tooltips, and bugs.  Wheres the strategy posts? Where are the questions? I know if I'm going to put something into a mantis ticket, I always end up having to be like 'ok well is this really worth a ticket, will this interfere with something else id rather have fixed?, etc..."  Sometimes its nice just to post some casual stuff and have a discussion.  You want to have people talking about your game, I can't see how that would be bad for it any way.  And it's like well now no one posts in the forums so why should I even take the time to make a post?  I mean I made a post asking about the thoraxians and the burlust like several days ago that I thought would elicit some discussion for sure.  I didn't even get a damn response, it's just odd. Where the heck is everyone?

Oh, that's all pretty typical of these forums.

They're an exploded mess when there's a beta for a game or expansion (except the Skyward expansion.... but that's a whole other tale), as well as immediately after release, because players have the most questions at that time.  Once the need for answers slows down, so do the forums.  Steam's forums in particular seem to mostly be used either for questions or complaints, or at least that's been my experience for many games. 

Not really a matter of the game being ignored.... if I recall, I believe Chris said it's looking to be possibly their best-selling game now, which is part of why updates and additions are coming so frequently. 

As for not getting a response... yeah, some of it is that.  Me, I normally try to respond to alot of things.... but I'm spacey and can be kinda airheaded, so I dont always actually notice that things are there to begin with.  Though of course you can always directly ask me via Steam if you should want my opinion on something.

But yeah, it's all pretty normal.   Though, I do often wonder why there does tend to be a lack of "strategy discussion" posts much of the time... even during beta or alpha, those types do not appear very much.  It's mostly discussions about balance and bugs and stuff.  So yeah, I dont get that bit.


...and as for Twitch, frankly I'd be bloody surprised to see a game like this ever appear on there.  Twitch tends to.... stick VERY closely to certain trends.  AKA, League, Dota, Minecraft, the usual games listed as the current biggest as far as viewers go.  Hell, even FPS games dont seem to get even remotely close to the amount of coverage you'd think they would.   The only places where something like this might pop up are on those very few streamers that focus on either indie games in general, or Greenlight games specifically. 

I do wish that Twitch would get more variety.  Dota and League and Minecraft are pretty entertaining, but I dont want to *always* watch those.

[UnfriendlyBG]

I've just never had something not come up as a preset game when I've tried to stream it before I was really surprised.  They have like obscure super nintendo games that no one streams ever that northernlion will play 1 show and they're in the system.  There was a way to submit a request to add it as an official game, which I did, but it still isn't there. 

The main downside to this is you can go to twitch; do this: http://www.twitch.tv/search?query=The+Last+Federation#stq=The%20Last%20Federation&stp=1  and come up with no relevant results even if someone is actually streaming it, granted twitches search is god awful.  I've tried youtube and i've tried streaming for TLF and personally I think its better suited to streaming.  At least for me, I usually have to weigh a lot of options before I make a decision, or feel compelled to research some tooltip that may or may not be working correctly for like 10 minutes, or forget about autoresolve and end up in a 25 minute long strategically unimportant battle against pirates, all stuff that kinda kills you tube episodes.  When you're streaming its more laid back and you're not always feeling the weight of the clock. At least for me, who is very amateur, I dont know how the big streamers operate I don't watch any aside from northernlion who does a show more than a lets play type stream. Plus if someone actually logs in to chat they can ask you about the game in realtime or to bounce ideas off of or whatever.  Theres been times I've had people come into my rome total war 2 steam and ask me a question about something about their current campaign or something and id spend like 40 minutes teaching them everything i know, which are like my favorite moments.

Now does anyone want to watch a Last Federation Stream? I dunno, there'd probably be like 1 person that would want to at all times id think. that's enough for me lol.  I dont think I ever had a real person come into my stream over the course of 12 hours, but that might be different when they add it as an official game.

[nas1m]

Though, I do often wonder why there does tend to be a lack of "strategy discussion" posts much of the time... even during beta or alpha, those types do not appear very much.  It's mostly discussions about balance and bugs and stuff.  So yeah, I dont get that bit.

Maybe the reason here really is that the baseline strategy (as outlined by the flowchart thread - I think by GC13/Drak) is not that different in every game - its just a matter of how much you get disturbed along the way by events and such (similar to but not as extreme as in Skyward).

There are events, in bucketloads even on the higher strategic difficulties, but there are just not enough (none?) of them affecting the relationships between races I think.

Having more diversity in terms of the baseline strategy (which currently is fairly samey) would go a long way in my book. But I am rambling...

[PokerChen]

On the number of copies side... I wonder what the sale ranking is, since this article gives you a good idea of actual sales given that information.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/2/

[ptarth]

I'm not sure it is in a state to watch that is very interesting. GC13's flowchart recipe list at the of his thread matches pretty much what I do if I want to try to win. It isn't that interesting to watch. Mostly, Do X. Wait until Y reaches level K. Repeat.

[Shrugging Khan]

Combat, Combat, Combat. The Simulation may be deep, and there are probably a ton of new diplomatic doodads in there by now that I've never even tried because I find Combat too unbearably boring to bother with, and having no combat at all just makes the game seem a bit non-engaging.

[Teal_Blue]

Combat, Combat, Combat. The Simulation may be deep, and there are probably a ton of new diplomatic doodads in there by now that I've never even tried because I find Combat too unbearably boring to bother with, and having no combat at all just makes the game seem a bit non-engaging.

What makes Ai War so intricate and interesting and Tlf not?
apart from the schmup which seems not strategic though I wish more tactical
What could make it better?

Teal

[topper]

On the number of copies side... I wonder what the sale ranking is, since this article gives you a good idea of actual sales given that information.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/2/

If the numbers are from 2009 onwards, I would be shocked if TLF is ranked higher than #1500.

The followup article is even more interesting to me since it shows that over 70% of buyers of a game play less than 10 hours or never play the game. So the pool of active posters is probably even smaller than I estimated.

[LaGrange]

The Last Federation:
People playing an hour ago: 9
Peak number of players in last 24 hours: 26
All-time peak number of players: 623
% Gain in last 30 days: -71.22%
http://www.steamcharts.com/app/273070

AI War: Fleet Command:
People playing an hour ago: 13
Peak number of players in last 24 hours: 35
All-time peak number of players: 232
% Gain in last 30 days: +10.54%
http://www.steamcharts.com/app/40400

Is Steam Charts legit, or not? I don't know much about the site.

[NickAragua]

It may or may not be legit, but a lot of people didn't get the game via Steam.

I would recommend alternating rounds of beta and official patches - put out major features as 'beta', then let it percolate a little bit to get feedback, polish and then release an official version.

I also must be some kind of drooling primitive neanderthal because I actually enjoy the combat (more than the ultra-dense strategic interface, where I just try to do a bare minimum so I can get back to blowing things up).

[topper]

Is Steam Charts legit, or not? I don't know much about the site.

Also note that Arcen games do not require Steam to launch, so then the time is not tracked.

If you install a Beta update, the installer automatically relaunches the game without Steam.

[Misery]

It may or may not be legit, but a lot of people didn't get the game via Steam.

I would recommend alternating rounds of beta and official patches - put out major features as 'beta', then let it percolate a little bit to get feedback, polish and then release an official version.

I also must be some kind of drooling primitive neanderthal because I actually enjoy the combat (more than the ultra-dense strategic interface, where I just try to do a bare minimum so I can get back to blowing things up).

Neh, you arent the only one that enjoys the combat... that particular combat model likely wouldnt have lasted through the beta if everyone had hated it, plenty seemed to like it.  I'm guessing that's still the case after release.  Not EVERYONE is gonna like it, but still.

As far as I'm concerned, it's more than half of the game and is the top thing that keeps me interested, though it's a little too easy for me even on Misery.   But it's such fun.

[LaGrange]

Also note that Arcen games do not require Steam to launch, so then the time is not tracked.

If you install a Beta update, the installer automatically relaunches the game without Steam.

I think you're talking about very early after the Steam release. I'd say for the past month all updates occur within Steam automatically, and it never takes me outside the Steam launcher.

But yes, you're right, there are people playing the non-Steam, standalone version of the game.

[ptarth]

I was looking into setting up the next poll. However, I don't feel much has changed since 1.016 in addressing the things that I find most lacking. I can put up the next poll, but I don't think the outcome will be very different from this poll.

Status update based on my observations.

• Arcen was busy with other things.
• Last Federation Forum activity is null, active forumers have moved back to AIWars for the most part. Very little new blood.
• Mantis activity has dropped to a couple of entries per day.
• I don't think this pattern of forum activity is a sign of a healthy increasingly popular game. I think they are the characteristics of a dead/dying game.
• I find myself not interested in playing, for the same reasons I've previously described in thread and in the forum
• A relatively common theme in Arcen reviews and forum posts is that they have great core ideas, great fundamental engines, but then drop the ball when it comes to compelling gameplay.
• I've owned Bionic Dudes for a while and finally got around to finishing a game.
• I played Normal/Normal, the introductory setup.
• I initially found it great fun.
• But it got very tedious after a while.
• I actually skipped 25 game turns by attacking Radar Outposts (whatever they are called), just to end it. I also didn't upgrade my bots for those turns. That's essentially half the game.
• Part of the tedium was equipment comparisons. After every battle, equipment levelled up. So I had to see if 4-20 items were better than what I had.
• Part of the tedium was the required upgrades that didn't actually do anything, but I still had to spend so much time working on them. Hacking is a great example. I had to continually increase the hacking points I possessed just to be able to open the locked doors. That required me to find builds that kept up with the doors or just ignore the doors (I did this eventually). Gameplay didn't change, I just needed bigger numbers to fit the door bigger numbers.
• High attack enemies made shields pretty pointless. I can't take 2.6k hits, so I have to kill at range.
• Mech designs were based getting better weapons: more aoe, more damage, more range, more shots
• In the end, I used my 52 sensor range epic science mech to wake everything up. Then my level 30 or 40 turrets to kill everything. Or rely on friendly fire. Or rely on my epic siege mech using its AOE 13 Ammo 3 Plasma cannon. Then clean up with my epic assault bot with range 13 1.5k damage laser rifle.
• I don't have any interest in playing again, there weren't really interesting choices.
• Is this just the natural outcome of relying on procedural generation?
• I think this is similar to how tLF is working out. I experience lots of tedium and very few interesting choices.
• Getting information on the solar system is easier and more intuitive now, but I still want rate of change information.
• Making changes is still awkward. Either I can't do anything to effectively move things in the direction I want or I can, but then...
• Player impacts are still dwarfed by the RNG, especially when it comes to events. As it stands, a century of work can be lost in a single event, so why bother with working?

[Teal_Blue]

I was looking into setting up the next poll. However, I don't feel much has changed since 1.016 in addressing the things that I find most lacking. I can put up the next poll, but I don't think the outcome will be very different from this poll.

Status update based on my observations.

• Arcen was busy with other things.
• Last Federation Forum activity is null, active forumers have moved back to AIWars for the most part. Very little new blood.
• Mantis activity has dropped to a couple of entries per day.
• I don't think this pattern of forum activity is a sign of a healthy increasingly popular game. I think they are the characteristics of a dead/dying game.
• I find myself not interested in playing, for the same reasons I've previously described in thread and in the forum
• A relatively common theme in Arcen reviews and forum posts is that they have great core ideas, great fundamental engines, but then drop the ball when it comes to compelling gameplay.
• I've owned Bionic Dudes for a while and finally got around to finishing a game.
• I played Normal/Normal, the introductory setup.
• I initially found it great fun.
• But it got very tedious after a while.
• I actually skipped 25 game turns by attacking Radar Outposts (whatever they are called), just to end it. I also didn't upgrade my bots for those turns. That's essentially half the game.
• Part of the tedium was equipment comparisons. After every battle, equipment levelled up. So I had to see if 4-20 items were better than what I had.
• Part of the tedium was the required upgrades that didn't actually do anything, but I still had to spend so much time working on them. Hacking is a great example. I had to continually increase the hacking points I possessed just to be able to open the locked doors. That required me to find builds that kept up with the doors or just ignore the doors (I did this eventually). Gameplay didn't change, I just needed bigger numbers to fit the door bigger numbers.
• High attack enemies made shields pretty pointless. I can't take 2.6k hits, so I have to kill at range.
• Mech designs were based getting better weapons: more aoe, more damage, more range, more shots
• In the end, I used my 52 sensor range epic science mech to wake everything up. Then my level 30 or 40 turrets to kill everything. Or rely on friendly fire. Or rely on my epic siege mech using its AOE 13 Ammo 3 Plasma cannon. Then clean up with my epic assault bot with range 13 1.5k damage laser rifle.
• I don't have any interest in playing again, there weren't really interesting choices.
• Is this just the natural outcome of relying on procedural generation?
• I think this is similar to how tLF is working out. I experience lots of tedium and very few interesting choices.
• Getting information on the solar system is easier and more intuitive now, but I still want rate of change information.
• Making changes is still awkward. Either I can't do anything to effectively move things in the direction I want or I can, but then...
• Player impacts are still dwarfed by the RNG, especially when it comes to events. As it stands, a century of work can be lost in a single event, so why bother with working?

I don't know how to answer your questions on how to fix this. Is this a true condition for all players? Or a circumstance of personal play style do you think?

I am still a newbie, still trying to figure things out, still trying to affect things and not understanding what i am not doing correctly, or if the game expects me to do something else.

If the RNG were nerfed to balance the player impacts, would that make the game more interesting? Or more playable?

Is the problem that the game wants us to do specific things, and not what you as a player or i as a player want to do?
I sometimes feel that way, but then perhaps i don't have enough experience with the game and don't understand where i am to go to get done what i am trying to do.

Anyway, i am not really helping you if i am asking questions as well, but maybe if we can figure out what would help, then it will give us an idea of what changes to ask for to give us an experience closer to what you would like.

-Teal