Creating an evident need for a Federation

[NichG]

Since the last time I proposed something it was suggested it get bounced around the forums first, I'm starting this here and we can figure out when its ready to be mantis'd. The new Federation Point mechanic seems to have the problem that it basically is a hurry-up-and-wait thing, but something is needed in order to stretch out the timespan of the game.

My suggestion is that you should not only have to get people liking eachother enough to form a Federation, but also demonstrate in a clear way to the solar system why a Federation is needed. Lets say each race might have a particular 'concern' - to convince them to join the Federation, they each gain a prerequisite related to their concern. Each prerequisite might be able to be satisfied in multiple ways in order to keep things from getting stale.

So for example, the Peltians have 'Form Federation for safety'; maybe the prerequisite is that they be afraid. One way for this to happen is the formation of a Fear Empire. Another way would be if they were the subject of a war at some point. A third way could be if another race's armada outnumbered the armadas of all other races in the solar system. Before the Peltians will agree to Federate, at least one of these three must have been satisfied.

For the Acutians, maybe you have to show them there's profit in it. That could be done by having a certain amount of trade/tariffs going on in the solar system, by having demonstrations of collaborative projects (e.g. either you helping build things for other races, or a certain amount of tech sharing happening), or by a demonstration that a failure to be part of the Federation is costing profits (say, if someone they had trade with breaks off the trade due to war, or is wiped out by war).

This would give the player multiple scenarios to set up (each of which might destabilize the solar system as a whole), so it would naturally draw out the game without having an explicit timer in the form of FP.

[Draco18s]

I agree with this.

My "I need to get back to it at somepoint" game is "Non-interference, no this is not observer-mode, why?" (mostly because I want to see what happens) and yeah.

There's no outside pressures of ANY kind, so...why does a federation need to form?

[Elijah]

There is pressure. The eventuality (something that will happen in-game) that one of the races will exterminate all the others.

[Draco18s]

There is pressure. The eventuality (something that will happen in-game) that one of the races will exterminate all the others.

That is not an external force.  That is an internal force.

[NichG]

Internal pressure can be fine too, but since its clear that there's a need for a gameplay mechanic that paces out the game, making those internal and external pressures explicit triggers means that there are more ways the player can interact with the solar system strategically, and it means that their short-term goals can be more varied.

Right now there are a few reasons you might want two races whom you intend to join the Federation to go to war with eachother, but its often sort of a gimmick to get access to tech without taking influence hits or to build influence with one of the races by defending them or to earn credits - very player-centered, basically. But if certain races needed to see the horrors of war to realize that they needed to federate, it might make sense to e.g. have the Boarines go to war with the Peltians to scare the Peltians into the federation. Then once its done, you have to fix the damage you caused if you also want the Boarines to be in your Federation. So it makes things more nuanced and strategically deep, hopefully.

I guess the question would be, aside from the obvious one (scare the Peltians in), are there reasonable internal/external pressures to trigger the various other races that wouldn't just be trivial - in the sense of happening too readily on their own without player intervention?

Here's another one: maybe the Andors don't like seeing other planets in turmoil, so the trigger for them is the formation of a pirate nation/sufficient amounts of piracy, seeing at least two planets with Public Order less than -100, or witnessing an atrocity (Evucks blowing up their planet, Acutians blowing up someone else's). Those are all relatively nontrivial.

[casualsax]

I like the concept, but I don't like the idea of fixed conditions for each race.  I'd also like to wait and hear what Chris and friends have to say about federation points first - there has been a lot of feedback on it. 

That having been said:  If these were turned into a solar map quests that randomly appeared after you formed your federation, it could be a nice touch.  "The Peltians have come to a vote and decided that if a federation member has twice their fleet power in the next year, they will join your federation." 

This gives you the option of either increasing a member's fleet, or decreasing theirs.  It also makes it readily apparent to the player, instead of a joining condition buried in a menu or wall of text.

[chemical_art]

I feel adding things.that result in the option for mote variety to get into the.federation.

For example, if one peaceful  race loses its world, the other peaceful races will be more likely to form a federation For safety. Mmuch better then the arbitrary point system

[NichG]

The problem with quests is that the player can't do anything about making them pop up, its all on the game to decide when a quest should spawn. That means quests would still be a hurry-up-and-wait mechanic - you have to sit around waiting for the game to decide its time to give you an opportunity to get someone into the Federation, rather than proactively working towards specific sub-goals that gradually get you there.

Edit: Mantis'd, so we might want to continue the discussion there.

[casualsax]

I do not like the idea of adding hoops to jump through for a race to join a federation.  It hurts the replay value and the narrative of the game.  If they are going to be vital, these requirements can be worked into the game itself.  Instead of making it so the Peltians  always have to be afraid, instead you make it so that any race with a weaker military than its current opponent will be more likely to join (so in the current build, it would have a direct effect on its Federation Points).  Then if the game's pacing is off, you can scale the Federation Points to your liking.

[NichG]

I'm not sure how homogenizing the races actually adds replay value compared to giving them each distinctive features and things they respond to. If all the races have the same mechanics then it doesn't matter if you federate the Peltians first or the Evucks or the Thoraxians or the Burlusts, because they're all the same. Clearly the game has already gone in the opposite direction design-wise, making each of the races have distinctive motivations, behaviors, and forms of government.

Replay should be enhanced by making it so there are many different twisting paths towards Federation - having each race have three different ways to make it want to join means that you have a lot of different combinations of situations you can explore in trying to make various kinds of Federations. If they all have the same three ways, there are many fewer gameplay combinations that can result.