A Paradox 4X Space Game?

[Teal_Blue]

Interesting article. I know it may seem out of place here, but when many of the criticisms against TLF started after beta, i didn't understand. Having stumbled across this article i think i am beginning to see what the players may have been looking for.

It may seem unrealistic to expect Arcen to satisfy a desire by Paradox players for a Grand Strategy game in space that they long for, as perhaps a step away, or difference from the historical pieces that Paradox is of course famous for, but none-the-less, i think i can begin to see what is was they were looking for in TLF that may of course been completely different than how Arcen wanted to take their own game. After all, Arcen isn't Paradox, they have an agenda of their own of course and don't want to simply mimic another company or playstyle.

Still it is understandable what the Paradox players may have been looking for.

Take a look at the article and see what you think, ultimately, perhaps only Paradox can give these players what they are really hoping for.

link :

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?623321-A-Paradox-4X-Space-Game&s=b0c37c4c14622ab5218f88bde1eb4536


Thanks for listening,
-Teal

p.s.  instead of 'article' perhaps i should have better said, 'forum discussion'. 

[Misery]

What in the numerous hells did I just read?

didn't understand a word of any of that.

[Alex Heartnet]

Yeah, this is a strange game even by Arcen Standards.

We''ll perhaps wait and see what Arcen has cooked up for Spectral Empire.

What in the numerous hells did I just read?

didn't understand a word of any of that.

What, you never run into someone with the much higher INT score then you?  Where you know the words being used but fail to understand what is being said?

[Misery]

Yeah, this is a strange game even by Arcen Standards.

We''ll perhaps wait and see what Arcen has cooked up for Spectral Empire.

What in the numerous hells did I just read?

didn't understand a word of any of that.

What, you never run into someone with the much higher INT score then you?  Where you know the words being used but fail to understand what is being said?

It's more like looking into a genre I've never touched and seeing words I DONT know... I'd give the same response, except moreso, to sports games.  It'd be just meaningless jargon and utter gibberish to me...   I've never been good with jargon or technical terms. Even when it comes to computing, something I'm very familiar with, I tend to use simpler terms, mostly due to being irritable.  "External HDD" becomes "stupid box thing", for instance.  For this forum posting in the link there, it's also *alot* of abbreviations or game names I've never heard of.

Paradox's games can be like that though as well.  The idea of learning them makes me think of Dwarf Fortress.  DF, I'm familiar with.  But the act of learning the damn game was.... long.  It's complicated as all hell, it really is.  And while Paradox's games look interesting to me, ehhhh.... I'm so dang lazy, really.  And there's probably not very many things exploding or being on fire. So when people are talking about them, well... yeah, I've no idea what they're rambling about.

[Teal_Blue]

The intention of my first post and the discussion on the paradox forum is rather straight forward... The paradox players wanted an extremely detailed and micro intensive game. When TLF launched that is what they thought they had.

But it seems at least to my mind that Arcen intended was a title that instead would appeal to a broader and more casual/entry level player base. Certainly more accessible and certainly less intimidating and less over-whelming experience than Paradox is known for. While certainly understandable for Arcen, it was nowhere near what the paradox players were looking for.

To re-iterate, the complexity, the level of detail, the hundreds, if not thousands of scripted scenarios and possibilities and variations and extremely micro-management intensive as paradox games such as Hearts of Iron or Crusader Kings or Victoria or Europa Universalis are what in particular these players were looking for.

Of course not everyone is. But this is what I understood having seen the discussion on the paradox forums that I did not originally understand. That was what I was saying with post. Not everyone of course wants that, and certainly there is reason to believe Arcen does'nt want to be a paradox clone. But still, all other tastes aside, it is enlightening to understand what and why those players are adamant about precise values and modifiers that can be calculated and are repeatable over and over and over again, because it approaches the same pattern and play style of the games that are so dear to their hearts.

Other people like sumps, or platformers or FPS shooters or casual pickup and put down titles that have nothing in common with grand detailed and strategic micro games and players.

I am not saying Arcen should have made such a title, but having read a wish list of what paradox players consider viable and desirable in such a title, gives me an understanding I did't at first see.

Maybe they'll get it eventually, but I think that it will have to come from Paradox. The audiences of Arcen and Paradox are too different I think.  Arcen is certainly strategic and complex, but not in the same way, nor to the extreme that Paradox players prefer.

Thank you for listening to my impressions and opinions and thoughts on this,
-Teal

[wwwhhattt]

I think the Paradox comparison is partly why I had trouble working out what to do with TLF. In Crusader Kings 2 I'm perfectly happy to let the game run for a while while I slowly wonder what to do next, since stuff's always happening anyway. With TLF I never really feel like that's an option - even running dispatch missions feels like a mistake, and if I can't find something immediately to do then I instantly feel like I'm screwing up somewhere. The difference there being that in CK2 most of what happens is irrelevant to you - it's possible to be surrounded by wars and not care - while in TLF everything that happens is important to some extent, making it hard to wait until there's something useful to be done. The problem being that as they both have sandboxy worlds where things happen without player intervention it's easy to imagine them aiming at that same area.

Unrelatedly, there was someone in that thread saying Paradox should stick to historical games, and I remember someone on these forums saying that Arcen should stick to strategy games seeing as that's what they're known for. It maybe makes sense from a financial point of view, but the idea of narrowing their output to what's worked in the past seems bizarre - although from the Arcen side that might be because I see them as less focused on strategy, more on gamey eclecticism.


...that turned out longer than I expected. huh.

[Misery]

I think the Paradox comparison is partly why I had trouble working out what to do with TLF. In Crusader Kings 2 I'm perfectly happy to let the game run for a while while I slowly wonder what to do next, since stuff's always happening anyway. With TLF I never really feel like that's an option - even running dispatch missions feels like a mistake, and if I can't find something immediately to do then I instantly feel like I'm screwing up somewhere. The difference there being that in CK2 most of what happens is irrelevant to you - it's possible to be surrounded by wars and not care - while in TLF everything that happens is important to some extent, making it hard to wait until there's something useful to be done. The problem being that as they both have sandboxy worlds where things happen without player intervention it's easy to imagine them aiming at that same area.

Ahhhh, I see, I think that makes the whole thing make alot more sense overall.   Having looked at some videos of Paradox's games, that does appear to be the case.

So, a VERY different type of playstyle overall despite some similarities in type of game.   And yeah, I agree with the "cant find anything to do = screwing up" bit.  Though, in all honesty, I tend to think that way in ANY game.  If stuff is happening yet *I* am not doing anything, that seems to just go against the whole idea of playing the game, so it seems either like I'm missing something, or there's a design flaw.  Never feels right to me.

[wwwhhattt]

Ahhhh, I see, I think that makes the whole thing make alot more sense overall.   Having looked at some videos of Paradox's games, that does appear to be the case.

So, a VERY different type of playstyle overall despite some similarities in type of game.   And yeah, I agree with the "cant find anything to do = screwing up" bit.  Though, in all honesty, I tend to think that way in ANY game. If stuff is happening yet *I* am not doing anything, that seems to just go against the whole idea of playing the game, so it seems either like I'm missing something, or there's a design flaw.  Never feels right to me.

They're quite good when you're cooking, or doing something else that only takes up bits of your time. My younger brother used to keep telling me I was playing Crusader Kings wrong because I wasn't constantly expanding (there's always stuff you can do, but why rush?).

[Dystropia]

I like you Teal_Blue. I like you too Misery. You I do not like Alex Heartnet.

[Misery]

I like you Teal_Blue. I like you too Misery. You I do not like Alex Heartnet.

....er..... what?

[Hearteater]

No idea. Seems a very random first post.

[Regan]

I just picked up TLF, and during the course of my first play-through thought rather than of what seemed missing from this game, what this game has that seems missing from another (or anything involving factions for that matter, can't say I've seen a game handle things this way before). The degree of meddling you're able to do without actually being part of any one faction would be a great way to flesh out the politics in a more shallow game such as Mount and Blade.

Paradoxians looking for something more intricate than the Sword of the Stars series already have Distant Worlds, though it may have slipped the minds of those in the linked thread. No need for another one of those, particularly from one of the few other studios out there doing original things!