Author Topic: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.  (Read 3683 times)

Offline echo2361

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 07:19:11 PM »
If there are active abilities, I think they should be potent, tactical, or indirect things you wouldn't fire so often that there would be a need for auto-cast.

A "chaff/flare/smoke missile" or other type of damage/accuracy/visibility reducing area effect would be the sort of thing that wouldn't have a direct enemy target nor would you have much reason to rapid-fire it, so I think that would work pretty well.

Some kind of big gun, artillery, or damaging AOE that has friendly fire potential and a long reload could sort of fall under this too. It's stuff you don't want that firing automatically, at most you might request multiple rounds to a spot.

I think active abilities are fine for things that you don't want being fired off and mixing with the swarms. Things that are big, slow, or specialized enough that they are treated separately from the squads.
I don't think normal units should have them as that would be micro-hell, I think they should probably be fired from the flagship or have their own dedicated unit so they don't get lost in the mess.

I guess to use an analogy, I feel that if it's the sort of thing that would in practice get direct orders for firing its weapon from above squad-level comms and maybe even directly from command, then it's OK.

+1 to all of the above :)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
I'm not a big fan of abilities due to the micro they add. However, if they are to be added, they need to be strong and be used by a very selected units. If they are so comMon need to be auto casted, they should not needed to be activated by the player at all.
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Offline x4000

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 07:49:58 PM »
That's true.  It would have to be very limited-ammo sort of stuff.  Generally speaking, depending on the speed you have this running at, it's not exactly a twitch game anyway.  People seem to be loving this at half speed as the default, and I we've added buttons for both slowdown and double-FF (as well as the existing FF).  Boy I find that slow, but it's something that can be tuned to taste, so I can't complain.  I guess being too slow is better than too fast, in terms of early players.
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Offline Misery

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 03:26:46 AM »
That's true.  It would have to be very limited-ammo sort of stuff.  Generally speaking, depending on the speed you have this running at, it's not exactly a twitch game anyway.  People seem to be loving this at half speed as the default, and I we've added buttons for both slowdown and double-FF (as well as the existing FF).  Boy I find that slow, but it's something that can be tuned to taste, so I can't complain.  I guess being too slow is better than too fast, in terms of early players.

Not to mention that there's not likely to be much in the way of complaining over micro when the pause function exists.

Normally I dont really like too many abilities and too much micro in an RTS.... Supreme Commander was more my style of thing.... but in a game like this, abilities would be unlikely to cause too many problems.  Being able to stop and think and examine things, and then activate the occaisional ability/whatever while still paused, sounds muuuuuuch better than trying to micro at 20 zillion actions per minute.

Fast micro always seems to me like the sort of thing that's best left to the moba genre, where it works well.... RTS games though, I have too many misclicks and wrong key presses, followed by anger and random flailing.

But yeah, keeping it as limited ammo would definitely be best.  More strategic that way, with the decision to use the ability mattering alot.

Offline x4000

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 08:57:40 AM »
Makes a lot of sense to me.  Also with a slow-down-time button here, it's the sort of thing where if the timing really does need to be "precise," you can play this temporarily in slow mo, get exactly where you want, and then boom.  So it becomes a strategic thing, not a twitch thing.  So long as you can "twitch" the mouse within like a 3 second window. ;)

Once the new GUI is in place, I'm planning on doing another combat video to show things off at different speeds in particular, so that people don't get the wrong idea about the speed of things.

I have honestly been really back and forth on the idea of special abilities that are directly-triggerable.  Originally I wanted those on regular ships as well as the flagship, now I'm thinking it's more of a just-flagship thing or not at all, etc.  I've been really kind of going back and forth a lot there.
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Offline nas1m

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 09:49:42 AM »
Makes a lot of sense to me.  Also with a slow-down-time button here, it's the sort of thing where if the timing really does need to be "precise," you can play this temporarily in slow mo, get exactly where you want, and then boom.  So it becomes a strategic thing, not a twitch thing.  So long as you can "twitch" the mouse within like a 3 second window. ;)

Once the new GUI is in place, I'm planning on doing another combat video to show things off at different speeds in particular, so that people don't get the wrong idea about the speed of things.

I have honestly been really back and forth on the idea of special abilities that are directly-triggerable.  Originally I wanted those on regular ships as well as the flagship, now I'm thinking it's more of a just-flagship thing or not at all, etc.  I've been really kind of going back and forth a lot there.
Limiting them to the flagships and/or centerpieces sounds like a good compromise to me. As well as the new combat video. I agree that it will be important to make sure People get an accurate impression of how combat feels time-wise...
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Offline x4000

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 10:05:45 AM »
I intend to keep doing periodic videos showing off bits of the game as we go.  As someone pointed out a while back, that was a big thing we did with AI War and Valley 1, but we haven't really done with games since.  And those were our two biggest sellers...
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 10:11:13 AM »
I'm glad to hear that this won't be turning into a twitch-style RTS.  I might be alone in this, but when APM is so important that it affects your ability to keep up with the game, I usually lose interest.

I like the idea of directly triggerable abilities.  Having them just on the flagship would be best so that you don't have to have a specific ship or group of ships selected to use an ability.  The toolbar can just be there all the time, with configurable hot keys, of course.

Offline x4000

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 10:16:19 AM »
I might be alone in this, but when APM is so important that it affects your ability to keep up with the game, I usually lose interest.

You are not alone in this -- I am exactly the same way with RTS games.  I like twitch gaming in other contexts, but not in RTS.

I like the idea of directly triggerable abilities.  Having them just on the flagship would be best so that you don't have to have a specific ship or group of ships selected to use an ability.  The toolbar can just be there all the time, with configurable hot keys, of course.

Cool.  And yep, exactly -- not having to select the flagship to use it is the idea for sure.
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Offline Misery

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2014, 10:33:25 AM »
I have honestly been really back and forth on the idea of special abilities that are directly-triggerable.  Originally I wanted those on regular ships as well as the flagship, now I'm thinking it's more of a just-flagship thing or not at all, etc.  I've been really kind of going back and forth a lot there.

Perhaps you could make it so that it's not a ship-by-ship activation thing, but instead a squadron thing?  Like, the entire squadron takes part in doing whatever the special action is;  so you cant just tell individual ships to do it super specifically at exactly the right moments to mess up multiple targets simply via superior microing tactics.    This way, it'd be kinda similar to the Flagship's abilities, in that it's one single large entity, so to speak, that can activate, instead of like 8 things that have 8 seperate activations.   The effects could get weaker as the squadron's numbers shrink as well.  Something which wouldnt affect the Flagship, giving it a unique advantage.  Which makes sense, it's the flagship.

Also means alot less of poking individual ships, which makes things take longer.

Offline x4000

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 10:36:32 AM »
Possibly -- I've also been thinking about having the flagship having sometimes abilities that trigger things on specific ships.  Aka "make all interceptors explode violently, doing extra damage to anything near them."  Etc.  That way the ability isn't localized to your flagship, and is directly tied to how many interceptors you have deployed at the moment and where they are, but it's not also something you have to fiddle with on a ship or even a squadron basis.  That would also have implications for deployment order, ship positioning, and more.
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Offline echo2361

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2014, 12:34:34 PM »
Possibly -- I've also been thinking about having the flagship having sometimes abilities that trigger things on specific ships.  Aka "make all interceptors explode violently, doing extra damage to anything near them."  Etc.  That way the ability isn't localized to your flagship, and is directly tied to how many interceptors you have deployed at the moment and where they are, but it's not also something you have to fiddle with on a ship or even a squadron basis.  That would also have implications for deployment order, ship positioning, and more.

I like this idea about interceptors in particular and the general concept behind it in general. Having abilities tied to the different kinds of ships will add variety, but having them all be triggered from the flagship ensures I won't be clicking around to individual ships/squadrons all the time.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2014, 05:11:01 PM »
I don't like the squadron idea. the amount of micro in making sure ALL of my fighters in making sure then they are already in the right spot is just as much micro as selecting certain ones to use such ability. However, it doesn't come with the benefit.of.tactical flexibility. Better to just naked them eexplode on death automatically and be done.with it.
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Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 07:05:18 PM »
I agree that they should be limited to the flagshhip for the most part. 

If they don't fit on the flagship then they should have their own dedicated unit  if possible rather than be attached to a normal fleet unit.

To go back to the "real life" analogy, if it's something that would require a request to fire transmitted above squad level comms, then it would probably be ok as an active ability.
An equivalent minor unit throwing a grenade? Probably not, that would be best left automatic if it  is there at all.
 On the other hand, something that would be equivalent to an artillery strike, explosive charges, or airstrike? That would probably  fit.

Offline Misery

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Re: A note on some stuff that is coming for combat.
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2014, 08:18:02 PM »
I don't like the squadron idea. the amount of micro in making sure ALL of my fighters in making sure then they are already in the right spot is just as much micro as selecting certain ones to use such ability. However, it doesn't come with the benefit.of.tactical flexibility. Better to just naked them eexplode on death automatically and be done.with it.

I have to disagree.

Currently, if playing normally as it is when the AI is being tough, you already have to do this..... but only sort of.   This isnt Starcraft, you're not going to be getting units into EXACTLY the right spots for exactly the right situations, this being because they wont hold the heck still, the damn things.  You can of course give them direct orders, but it'll be about 2 seconds before they're out of position, and looping back around, or something.  Only the snipers seem to actually hold still ever.

Not to mention that it depends on the ability, really.  Abilities done in the way that SC does them often DO require intense precision.  But that's because of the nature of the game.  Example, maybe snipers can have some sort of "barrage" ability (either coming directly from them or the flagship, whatever).  Which would just, I dunno, triple their firing rate for a short time.  They dont need to be in exactly specific spots for something like this, and you dont have to be super specific about targeting when using such a thing unless that's your playstyle.... you really dont have to do much different at all.   Are your snipers already firing into the general area where you want some extra damage done?  You just activate it.... and that's it.  Let them do their thing then while you deal with something else. Same with something like, I dunno, some special laser attack.  Tell the squadron to do it, and each one will do their part as they reach the spot.  There's little need for them to do it at exactly the same time.... it's no different than attacking normally.  The amount of micro put into attacking normally is up to the player.  But usually you can just tell them "go here, attack this" and then you dont have to pay attention to it, because this isnt SC and it doesnt need to be hyper perfect. 

There's all sorts of ability ideas that could work like this.  The "click it once and let it be done" idea as opposed to Starcraft's "obsessed with micro" style.

Whereas something like on-death effects.... THAT could get irritating depending on the effect.  And I can think of several ways to highly abuse the idea of ships that cause AoE explosions when they pop, or similar abilities.


While I have nothing against Starcraft, frankly I think that game kinda poisoned the genre as a whole, as alot of developers seem to think that doing abilities or special combat effects that way is the ONLY way. When in fact there's so many other ways it could be done so that it requires hardly any micro, or none at all. 

And on top of that, it wouldnt be a bad idea to have something like this give these different ship classes more ways to stand out from each other.  Currently, I dont think they're doing that quite enough.