Author Topic: The bomb-generator thing in rooms  (Read 1101 times)

Offline Draco18s

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 08:18:25 PM »
Its fine as long as the room gives you at least enough missiles to clear the room.

Offline ptarth

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 08:19:17 PM »
The room was designed when generators weren't required to be cleared to exit the room.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 11:10:28 PM »
Even generator rooms are passable without a missile. This room requires 4. Again, I have never seen any other room that hard requires missiles. I feel like bullethell games shouldn't require finite resources to be used.

At most, 3 missiles.  Those spawners blow up once the other mobs are cleared out.

Yeah, but it doesn't change my thought that hard requiring consumables to clear a room is an unwise design.

Aye, that's a rule indeed.  However, it's certainly possible that there are a few rooms breaking this rule that we hadnt spotted before.

As for the idea of putting missile pickups in rooms that require missiles, that's a no-go also.  Because there's no guarantee that the player will actually hit the required thing with the missiles.

Offline Cinth

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2017, 12:07:51 AM »
The room was designed when generators weren't required to be cleared to exit the room.

You still don't.  Spawners are on the list of things that blow up when the room is clear (I double checked that).

Its fine as long as the room gives you at least enough missiles to clear the room.

The room in question has a missile drop (2).  You should be able to clear it with those.  3 missiles if you're slow about spawns.
Even generator rooms are passable without a missile. This room requires 4. Again, I have never seen any other room that hard requires missiles. I feel like bullethell games shouldn't require finite resources to be used.

At most, 3 missiles.  Those spawners blow up once the other mobs are cleared out.

Yeah, but it doesn't change my thought that hard requiring consumables to clear a room is an unwise design.

Aye, that's a rule indeed.  However, it's certainly possible that there are a few rooms breaking this rule that we hadnt spotted before.

I haven't seen any that didn't provide the means to clear the room.

Quote
As for the idea of putting missile pickups in rooms that require missiles, that's a no-go also.  Because there's no guarantee that the player will actually hit the required thing with the missiles.

Players who generate problems for themselves aren't my problem.  If they can't hit a stationary target with a missile, well then, they have other problems.  If a player can't take the time to figure some stuff out on their own, then how in the hell are they to figure out puzzle rooms and stuff? 

I mean it's baffling that there are still complaints over the frogger rooms when there aren't any enemies at all in them.  People are going to throw fits about the mousetraps I plan on adding later.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 12:15:34 AM »
I mean it's baffling that there are still complaints over the frogger rooms when there aren't any enemies at all in them.  People are going to throw fits about the mousetraps I plan on adding later.

Reminds me of the Dungeon Defenders 2 players.
Javelin Throwers outrange towers: players complain, range gets reduced.
Players complain there's no end-game difficulty.  Siege tank is added.
Players complain that the siege tank is unkillable. Other players complain its too easy (because they're not scrubs and actually go deal with the problem with a not piss-poor DPS character). <--where we are now

The sad/awesome thing is, the siege tank is the least of their concerns.  The new difficulty mode (and the new mobs coming with it) are going to cause so many tears.  And they will be delicious.

Offline Cinth

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 12:25:47 AM »
Players need to be prepared for mousetraps.  It's going to happen. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline carldong

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2017, 12:42:48 AM »
Players need to be prepared for mousetraps.  It's going to happen.

Now, I don't bring my point up without support. Yes, players usually don't miss a stationary target, but time by time they make a mistake, maybe 0.1% of the time.

So that is not a big problem.

Let's also ignore the fact that Starward Rogue's rule(saw it somewhere else in this forum too, somewhere...) to be clearable with just the main weapon of any mech, at base damage. Breaking this breaks player expectation, because it is like breaking a premise in a chain of logic.

Take one step back, assuming that rule doesn't exist, there is no indication that such hard requirements are needed. Boss rooms are magenta, Minibosses are purple, Major Item rooms are green, normal rooms are cyan, etc. You don't surprise yourself to see a boss unprepared -- you know when to enter a boss room. Unless a new color is assigned specifically to rooms that hard requires consumables, players will be confused.

So my point: unless that design rule is non-existant, you should never break it. Because it instantly triggers slippery slope, or an impression of slippery slope, among players. You break it once, there will be another, and it goes spiral.

Or maybe I can't make this argument because you are changing your rules anyways. Yeah, that would break my premise.

Last note here: as for players missing missiles against stationary blocks. If people aim with analog stick at some distance away(maybe just lazily saving travel time), they MISS. No matter what you say, I sometimes do accidentally release my stick and puff, missile to the left.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 01:40:28 AM »
Its fine as long as the room gives you at least enough missiles to clear the room.
Not necessarily. If you are a new player and don't know that, you will be stuck if you pick the missiles up and use them on other mobs in the room before getting to the spawners, as most players will likely assume the spawners will pop with the basic weapon or when all mobs are cleared.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 01:57:26 AM »
Its fine as long as the room gives you at least enough missiles to clear the room.
Not necessarily. If you are a new player and don't know that, you will be stuck if you pick the missiles up and use them on other mobs in the room before getting to the spawners, as most players will likely assume the spawners will pop with the basic weapon or when all mobs are cleared.

Spawners do pop when all the mobs are cleared.  The room in question has 4 spawners, and you have to pop some of them with missiles to clear them.

Let's also ignore the fact that Starward Rogue's rule(saw it somewhere else in this forum too, somewhere...) to be clearable with just the main weapon of any mech, at base damage. Breaking this breaks player expectation, because it is like breaking a premise in a chain of logic.

As far as I know, that isn't a hard and fast rule, more like a guideline.

Take one step back, assuming that rule doesn't exist, there is no indication that such hard requirements are needed. Boss rooms are magenta, Minibosses are purple, Major Item rooms are green, normal rooms are cyan, etc. You don't surprise yourself to see a boss unprepared -- you know when to enter a boss room. Unless a new color is assigned specifically to rooms that hard requires consumables, players will be confused.

And part of learning a game is learning how to overcome obstacles. 

So my point: unless that design rule is non-existant, you should never break it. Because it instantly triggers slippery slope, or an impression of slippery slope, among players. You break it once, there will be another, and it goes spiral.

The only rule for rooms that I've ever been given was that it should not require something the player may not have on them to continue on.  Meaning to me, if a room needs a missile to move forward, that room has to give the player at least one missile.  At that point, the onus is on the player to figure out the task at hand.  The game should hand hold players to the point where they blindly roll through rooms without even caring about what is contained within.

Last note here: as for players missing missiles against stationary blocks. If people aim with analog stick at some distance away(maybe just lazily saving travel time), they MISS. No matter what you say, I sometimes do accidentally release my stick and puff, missile to the left.

The game should not be responsible for player mess-ups.  It should, however, punish them.  >D
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2017, 02:08:17 AM »
Its fine as long as the room gives you at least enough missiles to clear the room.
Not necessarily. If you are a new player and don't know that, you will be stuck if you pick the missiles up and use them on other mobs in the room before getting to the spawners, as most players will likely assume the spawners will pop with the basic weapon or when all mobs are cleared.

Yeah, pretty much.

Or it could be just a basic matter of a combat situation.  Many players get overwhelmed easily (which of course is intentional when it comes to bullet-hell anything) and will either do panicky stuff, or they might just not spot some of their surroundings.  Maybe they grab the missiles in the room, but there's still enemies around, and they launch those all at some dangerous thing.   And then the room ends, and.... yeah, problem.

ANYTHING that can cause the player to get trapped in any way is probably the worst thing that can be done here, as it's effectively softlocked the game and totally destroyed the run in a single moment that didn't even have to do with getting hit.

The only requirements for LEAVING a room should be destroying enemies inside of it.  Locking stuff off behind barriers is fine when it's optional stuff, but not when it involves doors.

Offline carldong

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2017, 11:29:42 AM »
The game should not be responsible for player mess-ups.  It should, however, punish them.  >D

"Punish" doesn't mean "lol in your face now your are dead". This triggers more fury than learning, because it is totally unexpected.

Anyway our premise is different, there is no meaning for me to use logic anymore. I'll leave it to the devs to decide.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2017, 12:45:22 PM »
I'll leave it to the devs to decide.

*Cough*
Cinth is one of the guys who designed a bunch of the rooms.
;)

Offline carldong

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2017, 01:16:05 PM »
I'll leave it to the devs to decide.

*Cough*
Cinth is one of the guys who designed a bunch of the rooms.
;)

I know this... So that's why I say let the devs figure it out themselves. Time by time you get different ideas about basic rules, and that isn't what I can do. It simply change my assumptions when playing this game.\

Although, given that I encounter this room as my first room in that particular run, imagine what a new player on his/her first run would think. Nothing in tutorial tells you to bomb these things to clear a room, just like nothing in tutorial tells you to collect shards. However, one can live with 0 shards collected, one would die confused in the former. Tutorials largely form a player's assumptions about the game. If devs decide that some rooms must be bombed to clear, they should put that in the tutorial(Of course, tutorial itself must be bombed to pass. But I thought it just tells me how to use missiles, and any other roughlike I have played doesn't need to consume any finite resources, despite my limited bullethell experience).

Still, my suggestion: alien eggs around the generators if they must be destroyed. Cinth, if you want to encourage use of missiles on this type of map, I suggest putting eggs in a sort of hard to hit positions, whether it is behind one-way walls, maneuvering though a small spike maze, or teleport into the face of the generator, but please don't hard require them. Also, eggs alone hint that something is destroyable. You know, some generator rooms have eggs around.

Offline Cinth

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2017, 02:30:55 PM »
First off, I think I have about a dozen rooms in the game :p

Second, the only games I have played that are remotely similar are LoZ games.  The last Shump I played was Galaga and 1941/2.

Third, iirc, there is a spot where you have to break a shootable to pass in the tutorial. 

Fourth, well, if a room gives you the tools to clear it, it should be ok.  Herp derp blitzing shouldn't even be a thing.  Engage brain and think through problems.

The problem is the only type of mouse traps the game has right now are lion's dens.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 02:35:47 PM by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: The bomb-generator thing in rooms
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 04:42:03 PM »
I don't mind the game killing the player for being stupid or careless. I do mind the game locking the player up due to poor design.
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