Stealth 1.503 update

[Draco18s]

Also shields'll pop on them regardless, if my memory's not failing me for the Nth time. Not sure if that's intended or not, assuming I'm actually not misremembering.

Its intended. It even says so in the description (saw it just the other day)

[Frumple]

Ah, fair enough. I probably forgot by the time I actually stepped on caltrops and didn't think to double check the perk's text, heh.

[Pepisolo]

-Conductive Hull is back to its original 80 energy gain (both text & effect) instead of the changed 60 like in v1.502 (where the text was wrong and still showing 80).

Fixed, thank!

-Cryofreeze module: I think the sound effect should be toned down a bit. I mean, how long can you stand hearing that "fffSHII!" before you have to drop the module?

Reduced the volume on this 3db, thanks.

-Shrapnel Rose's hitbox seems too large for her sprite.

The problem with collision boxes is that we don't have that much control over the shape of the box, unlike with hitboxes. So, unless an enemy is square or circular shaped it's hard to fit the enemy properly. I think boss hitboxes is something we'll need to take a proper look at some time, maybe overhaul the lot..somehow. I could've reduced the collision hitbox size, but the sides of the boss wouldn't then cause damage so I've just left it for now. Misery can probably take a look some time.

-Runs with no damage perks offered are not rare now. Entering floor 5 with next to nothing damage-wise is less than interesting. Even if I sacrifice my HP like a madman to get some extra stuff and get lucky with items, I still need my perks to provide me with at least some firepower.

Yikes, probably too late to do anything about this now for this build at least. Don't forget to grab the critical hit perks if you're really struggling for firepower. Those should help a bit and they can be stacked.

-Immolated Minibot: Trail of fire doesn't stay? Maybe that one was just a weird item interact, but I didn't get another one since then and I can't do many runs until I get a bit healthier. So anyone else noticed something weird with the minibot trail effect?

Probably a weird interaction. Seems OK when I just tested it.

Not sure if it was fixed between 1.502 and 03, but if we're mentioning small issues, trap master (I think -- the one where lasers and caltrops stop hurting) stops/can stop working if you die and something revives you. Starts working again when you go to the next level, but it'll turn off for a bit. Might be specific to one of the revive perks/items... I don't remember what it was, heh, just that I was really surprised when rolling my face over spikes started hurting again :V

I had a quick look into this one, but it didn't seem easily fixable for this build. I'll have to look into it some more. Might be an engine quirk.

Also shields'll pop on them regardless, if my memory's not failing me for the Nth time. Not sure if that's intended or not, assuming I'm actually not misremembering.

It wasn't planned that it would work that way, but when the feature was implemented we noticed this behavior and thought....ok, that seems fine, actually. I could go either way on it affecting shields or not.

[Pepisolo]

Beta now updated to 1.505 if anybody fancies testing it.

[Pepisolo]

The last Beta update is out. The next proper release should be soon, within 24 hours or so, for those interested.

[Logorouge]

The last Beta update is out. The next proper release should be soon, within 24 hours or so, for those interested.

Very nice. I can't wait for players on the main branch to discover all the new stuff that's been brewing in Beta!
I should probably start thinking about updating my mechs too once the new perks come out of Beta. Oh dear...

[Pepisolo]

The last Beta update is out. The next proper release should be soon, within 24 hours or so, for those interested.

Very nice. I can't wait for players on the main branch to discover all the new stuff that's been brewing in Beta!
I should probably start thinking about updating my mechs too once the new perks come out of Beta. Oh dear...

Yeah, the only thing I'm slightly worried about is that the game might be a little bit too difficult in this latest build. Difficulty may need to be toned down slightly, although I'm not sure. We'll see, I guess.

[Draco18s]

I've certainly found Normal to be quite difficult lately.  But then again, I'm not very good at bullet hell games, so maybe that's alright.

[Frumple]

I'unno, I finally got around to buying the game like... last week? Week before? Seen some gameplay footage but that was about it for exposure, iirc. Went ahead and kicked on the beta, second run was 5 floor normal win with redshift (first was one of the other mechs, died before floor 3, heh). Think it was 502, at the time. Wasn't too bad, though it was pretty incredibly tedious -- ended up with basically garbage for damage perks or weapons, so the whole run took about four hours, or somethin' silly like that. Warden was like a 20-30 minute slog of constant firing. But it was a normal win in the beta, heh, and not what I'd call too terribly difficult. And that's being complete pants at bullet hells as well.

... now, my reflexes being about five different kinds of shot these days, any other mech I've played on normal since has been ground into the dirt unless I got freakishly lucky with perks or felt like rolling my face on things and tagged in the memory editor, but it feels like someone with steadier hands than I've got nowadays could manage without that much trouble.

Hard I haven't really poked at much yet without giving myself little things like infinite ammo, though. Probably will give a real try at it (i.e. a proper redshift run) if I can puzzle out that move/shoot linkage thing... or get fed up with that and just go for it without, heh.

Not sure what that means for balance, though. Redshift's a lot easier for me than the other mechs, so I can't really tell how over/under tuned things are. Some stuff definitely feels a bit too bullet sponge-y (rusted... something or other. Cores, sideshot, others I can't really remember the name of, some of the bosses, etc., etc.) if you don't happen to get some pretty serious damage buffs (via better weapons or just +% stuff), but that's about the worst I've noticed on normal, personally.

[Pepisolo]

I'unno, I finally got around to buying the game like... last week? Week before? Seen some gameplay footage but that was about it for exposure, iirc. Went ahead and kicked on the beta, second run was 5 floor normal win with redshift (first was one of the other mechs, died before floor 3, heh). Think it was 502, at the time. Wasn't too bad, though it was pretty incredibly tedious -- ended up with basically garbage for damage perks or weapons, so the whole run took about four hours, or somethin' silly like that. Warden was like a 20-30 minute slog of constant firing. But it was a normal win in the beta, heh, and not what I'd call too terribly difficult. And that's being complete pants at bullet hells as well.

Yeah, I think perhaps that it may be that the game is too much of an endurance test rather than specifically being more difficult. I tried to address this somewhat with the Beta by reducing the floor length significantly, but that's probably more than offset by the new lower amount of damage boosts you get. Run length should decrease significantly when the "crowded deathtrap overhaul" takes place. I believe that Misery is going to be looking at the rooms and reducing enemy density a fair bit, as well as us perhaps also adding some more rooms that are less crowded. So, overall, players should be going into less back to back deathtraps packed with enemies.

Not sure what that means for balance, though. Redshift's a lot easier for me than the other mechs, so I can't really tell how over/under tuned things are. Some stuff definitely feels a bit too bullet sponge-y (rusted... something or other. Cores, sideshot, others I can't really remember the name of, some of the bosses, etc., etc.) if you don't happen to get some pretty serious damage buffs (via better weapons or just +% stuff), but that's about the worst I've noticed on normal, personally.

Yeah, it may also be that some enemies need to have their HP values toned down a bit. Hopefully for the next build we can retune things to make the game a bit less of a slog if you don't happen to grab a bunch of damage boosts.

[Frumple]

Flak launcher definitely needs it, to add another to the pile. Character I'm on right now's got unlucky with damage, too (and is running that missile mod mech, so isn't getting much natively), and has like a... net -8% damage, or something along those lines, on floor five. Even with that, I just unloaded 12 (that's one two, ten and two, twelve) plasma torpedo shots into one, laying into it with a 30% fire rate boosted battle stomper (that six shot stunner main gun) just about the whole time, and it still had a bit over a third of its health left. That's probably somewhere in the "this is getting silly" range, ehehe. Even if the damage is a smidgen below the base line I'm not sure anything not a boss or miniboss (and possibly not the latter, either) should be taking ~240 energy worth of explosion and a bucket of lesser dakka to the face and still be shooting at me, heh.

At least personally the density hasn't bothered me much/at all (I like fairly active rooms, m'self), but that some of the things in them occasionally eat as much as or more than some of the bosses/minibosses is a fair bit annoying.

E: Oh gods, there's also a second flak launcher, a side shot, and a diffusion in this room. I'm... I'm just going to restart the run. Pretty sure I could kill them but I think it might take less time to just rerun the last four floors hoping damage perks gen this time :V

[Logorouge]

E: Oh gods, there's also a second flak launcher, a side shot, and a diffusion in this room. I'm... I'm just going to restart the run. Pretty sure I could kill them but I think it might take less time to just rerun the last four floors hoping damage perks gen this time :V

I know that room. Square room divided into four sections, I think it always contains four enemies designated as "fearsome" aka "the worse you can encounter". It can be rough depending on the mix of enemies you get.

I'm wondering if that room would be better if it was 2 fearsome + 2 something else.

[Frumple]

Eh, the room's set up well enough it's usually not that big of a deal to just take them one at a time. Plenty of other ones that give me more trouble, at least (mostly stuff involving copious traps/turrets/etc.). It's just, well. It would have taken a long time, in this particular case. Long enough it sapped my will to continue and I stopped, heh. The room won a morale victory and I routed :V

[Misery]

The Warden DEFINITELY shouldnt be taking 20-30 minutes to take down.  I just... what.   Even on terrible runs, I've never seen it go even remotely close to that. 

Is this with Redshift?  What happens with other mechs?  Note that the game is very much not balanced with Redshift in mind; it's ability warps the difficulty quite a bit, which is part of the point.

Also, what sorts of items and weapons are you using?  Are you hitting the boss (or other targets) CONSTANTLY with your basic gun, regardless of your movement?


Now, that being said, some enemies and such are very specifically meant to be quite tanky.   Flak Cannons are one of those, having about 1200 HP.  They're meant to be one of the most dangerous non-boss things in the game, and part of that is the fact that they stick around awhile.  And something like Terminus is supposed to be VERY tanky... yes, there is an actual reason for that.   Terminus is designed around the idea of attrition and slowly wearing you down over a long fight; most bosses are not set up this way, that guy is the exception.

Oh, another question:  Energy weapons, are you using them?  Enemy HP is set around the assumption that the player will be using those.


That's not to say that some enemies wont need a bit of tweaking of course.  But that's expected with any new update. 



Anyway, I'll start right on the room stuff, then.  Doing things for misery mode can wait... it wouldnt make sense to start balancing that until the rooms issues are fixed anyway.

Chances are, room updates/changes arent going to be released in one huge blob, but multiple updates.  Will help with feedback.  I'll figure that out as I go though.


As for the rooms.... yeah.  I've been meaning to deal with those.  With the perk update done, I can do this.  Many rooms have too many baddies in them and they mess with the pacing.  They were, after all, balanced around older versions.  And we need to have some rooms that are just easy ones; I'm taking some lessons from Isaac and other games in thinking of how to fix some of the room issues.  For instance there's a type of room concept that appears in Isaac that I could call a "freebie" room, where the room just has like one or two not-hard enemies in it in an open area... meant to break up the pace, and the player can just wreck them fast and move on.   Even Gungeon uses rooms like this sometimes.   But we've never had them here.

[Logorouge]

Now, that being said, some enemies and such are very specifically meant to be quite tanky.   Flak Cannons are one of those, having about 1200 HP.  They're meant to be one of the most dangerous non-boss things in the game, and part of that is the fact that they stick around awhile.

Ah ah! So that's the amount of health it's intended to have. Currently, it's up to 1800 HP though, which partially explains how it survived a barrage of torpedo to the face. I say partially because while reading Frumple's post again I realized he was using Rex (my missile mech), meaning his secondary was the Torpedo Cannon with an outrageous firepower of 200 per torpedo. Even with a damage penalty, a dozen of those would vaporize anything non-boss. I'm not sure what happened there.