Author Topic: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"  (Read 1668 times)

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2017, 10:54:26 AM »
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Was gonna report it as a bug, but it seems intended after all. You get double healing from pickups on Easy now? (Triple on very easy) That confused the heck out of both me and the new player I was introducing to the game. I genuinely thought the double healing perk was carrying over from a previous run or something, until I checked the mechs file.

I think basic stuff like that needs to be consistent across difficulties, first to avoid unnecessary confusion, second to reduce the jump in challenge between difficulties. Weren't the tiered healing items created specifically to avoid this very situation?

Yeah, it was intended although we were in two minds about this decision. We basically wanted to soften the attrition difficulty on easier difficulties, but that does indeed bring up the problems you mention. These changes were made before the extra HP pickups were added, so perhaps we can go back to a consistent 1 health per pickup on all difficulties. At this stage, I'm not really not sure whether to stick with things as they are or move back to 1 health per pickup.

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Ran into Twin Suns and Condemned Hunter-- both of them are WAY harder than I remember. Twin Suns is actually sort of a challenge now (though I still managed to Perfect it) and Hunter did a great job of turning me into a pincushion. Thankfully, I took the Life Harvester Incredibility so I had ~25 life at the time, plus two shields.

I'm pretty sure that Twin Suns hasn't been changed aside from adding SFX. Condemned Hunter was made more difficult, though. The previous version was a bit of a joke in terms of difficulty, but it could be that I've pushed things too far the other way. Not sure.

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Some of the perks I really didn't like; specifically, the orbital set (level 8?) where I didn't really feel that any of the selections were that desirable, or the set later one that included a deal-damage-when-hit effect.

The orbitals should be good, they are all pretty powerful, I think. The power set gives you a 10 second 10% multiplicative damage boost every time you take a hit which is pretty strong. These orbitals can stack too, so if you were to get hit a few times in a row you could get a 20% or 30% damage boost for a few seconds. The defense orbitals are perhaps for those that take a lot of hits as you really need to get hit 2 times within 10 seconds to gain any benefit. However, I find that sometimes crazy situations do occur when you take a lot of damage in quick succession, in those instances, defense orbitals will mitigate a lot of damage. This can also be somewhat useful as an anti attrition perk. The energy orbitals are pretty much just free energy when you get hit, although each orbital also reduces energy costs, so they can be used a bit more tactically if you are careful about when choose to use your energy weapon.

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or the set later one that included a deal-damage-when-hit effect.

That sounds like the Eye For an Eye perk. When I last tested this, it was a lot more useful I thought it would be. If you're on lower health then the retaliation damage becomes very big, I think. So, let's say you hit a really tricky room and there's a nasty blue blaze cannon, but fighting your way through to it is going to be extremely difficult, if you take a hit from it then you will automatically deal damage, perhaps even one killing it in one shot depending on how low life you're on. This can be very handy. The perk is best in these situations, I think, mitigating against crazy room arrangements.  The other perks in this tier are Indomitable, which gives you a 75% chance to never die on your final hit which is surely useful. Heavyweight by itself should be useful since it allows you to walk through missile breakable blocks although because we already have All In The Wrist at a lower level this makes the perk less desirable. Major shield is the another choice.  So, yeah, this tier of perks seems pretty solid, I think, overall.

Oh, regarding All In the Wrist. Would anyone still take this perk if the missile block destroying was removed, and it went back to only affecting shootables? The other perks are Rally, Resupply, Keymaster and Mapmaster.

Thanks for the feedback! :)

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2017, 11:25:27 AM »
Yeah, it was intended although we were in two minds about this decision. We basically wanted to soften the attrition difficulty on easier difficulties, but that does indeed bring up the problems you mention. These changes were made before the extra HP pickups were added, so perhaps we can go back to a consistent 1 health per pickup on all difficulties. At this stage, I'm not really not sure whether to stick with things as they are or move back to 1 health per pickup.
I see, I see. It did seem to be aimed at the same goal as the tiered HP pickups, so I was a bit confused as I thought the pickups had already solved that issue.

I'm pretty sure that Twin Suns hasn't been changed aside from adding SFX. Condemned Hunter was made more difficult, though. The previous version was a bit of a joke in terms of difficulty, but it could be that I've pushed things too far the other way. Not sure.
If he didn't face Twin Suns recently, it might be the upgrade Misery did a while back where he changed the hard version to normal and created a new version for hard mode.

Oh, regarding All In the Wrist. Would anyone still take this perk if the missile block destroying was removed, and it went back to only affecting shootables?
For what it's worth, me and my previously mentioned new player would still use it. Also, I think InkEyes initially thought the perk only affected shootables and still went for it with much enthusiasm.



Edit: Oups. Just had my first crash in a long time, while entering an uncleared Paragon room, 1st floor. (It was a test run too, so truly nothing of value was lost. :P) Files attached below.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 01:10:47 PM by Logorouge »

Offline Misery

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2017, 12:17:11 AM »
If he didn't face Twin Suns recently, it might be the upgrade Misery did a while back where he changed the hard version to normal and created a new version for hard mode.

I'm at least relatively certain I never did this.

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 09:34:35 PM »
Crash report from rapidly teleporting between rooms. Seems to be right after teleporting out of the secret room.
Just in case there's anything new or useful in the files, I'll include them below.

Offline Cuedon

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 03:43:12 AM »
Well, maybe I'm stupid then. Twin Suns felt like it had more projectiles and moved faster than I remembered, though.

My primary disagreeability with the orbitals is that it's an entire perk set based on the assumption of imperfect play. If you feel the need to take perks like that, then by all means, go for it. But by focing the player to take a perk like that just leaves an unpleasant feeling, in addition to making evasion-based builds less attractive. And forget about it if you're taking an Incredibility that sets you to 1hp; you're getting practically nothing.

Regarding the Eye For an Eye set, EFaE and Indomitable are, much like the orbitals, useful only because the player has erred, and especially near death. Heavyweight becomes almost redundant with All In the Wrist, as noted, and as I recall, the sheer utility of no longer having to use missiles to open shards/secrets is so overwhelming that you'd pick the other options only under specific conditions. Major Shield is either great or absolutely worthless, contingent on if you already have two shields or not. (Never checked this-- if you pick up a third shield before picking up anything that removes a shield, does it still count?)

Offline Misery

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 04:21:55 AM »
My primary disagreeability with the orbitals is that it's an entire perk set based on the assumption of imperfect play. If you feel the need to take perks like that, then by all means, go for it. But by focing the player to take a perk like that just leaves an unpleasant feeling, in addition to making evasion-based builds less attractive. And forget about it if you're taking an Incredibility that sets you to 1hp; you're getting practically nothing.

Hm, generally though, nobody is ACTUALLY going to go through the game while never getting hit.   ....If it seems that some are, I'm likely to respond by giving the game more ways to kill them.  But yeah, probably not going to happen.  One way or another these things act on the inevitability of the player getting hit by something, and for a time they make it easier to fight and prevent further hits.

As for Incredibilities:  Those don't count.  For the purposes of gameplay balance, consider them intentionally and totally broken items.  No aspect of gameplay is ever even remotely balanced around the existence of these.  As soon as you pick one up, balance goes out the window.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2017, 10:04:47 AM »
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Well, maybe I'm stupid then. Twin Suns felt like it had more projectiles and moved faster than I remembered, though.

It could be that something did change depending on when you last played that room. One thing that did change in the last patch that I forgot about, was the size of the shots. When the visuals were changed, the size of the shots also changed a bit, I think, so perhaps that was causing you more problems.

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My primary disagreeability with the orbitals is that it's an entire perk set based on the assumption of imperfect play. If you feel the need to take perks like that, then by all means, go for it. But by focing the player to take a perk like that just leaves an unpleasant feeling, in addition to making evasion-based builds less attractive.

I think that having some more perks in that tier that don't require getting hit might be nice, to give the player a bit more choice.

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Regarding the Eye For an Eye set, EFaE and Indomitable are, much like the orbitals, useful only because the player has erred, and especially near death.

For myself, I always like defense skills like these, as I like some mitigation for when I actually do get hit. It might be good to try and make sure these perk tiers have more of a balance between you-must-get-hit perks and others, though. I'll definitely take that into consideration for future perk improvements. Thanks!

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Heavyweight becomes almost redundant with All In the Wrist, as noted, and as I recall, the sheer utility of no longer having to use missiles to open shards/secrets is so overwhelming that you'd pick the other options only under specific conditions.

Yeah, AllInTheWrist has been changed to only affect shootables for the next build. Being able to smash bombables so early in the game is a bit broken.

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Major Shield is either great or absolutely worthless, contingent on if you already have two shields or not. (Never checked this-- if you pick up a third shield before picking up anything that removes a shield, does it still count?)

Yeah, if you pick up such a perk when you are on 2 shields, then the extra shield is held over, so that you can then grab an item that reduces shields and still be on 2.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2017, 10:24:07 AM »
Reducing the effect of All in the Wrist to only destroy shootables makes it nearly worthless. Perhaps keep the original effect and move it to a higher level in the perk list?
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2017, 05:00:17 PM »
Reducing the effect of All in the Wrist to only destroy shootables makes it nearly worthless. Perhaps keep the original effect and move it to a higher level in the perk list?

That was my original intention, but I couldn't really find a space for it. It kind of clashes with Heavyweight, which also does a similar effect. Any more thoughts guys? Remove the bombable destroying behavior and leave it where it is, or try to fit it in to the later game somewhere? Logo did say that it would still be useful early game, but I'm not sure.

Offline Cuedon

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2017, 05:55:17 PM »
I find Heavyweight to be the odd one now. It's a distinctive effect that has a very similar sacrifice ability. What if AItW takes the place of HW, and HW dropped entirely?

(Not that I remember what else is on their tiers... and it might be so late that people won't value it as much. On the other hand, it means your late stage missiles can be freed up for defenses, while early ones are burned for secrets/shards.)

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2017, 07:46:02 PM »
I find Heavyweight to be the odd one now. It's a distinctive effect that has a very similar sacrifice ability. What if AItW takes the place of HW, and HW dropped entirely?

(Not that I remember what else is on their tiers... and it might be so late that people won't value it as much. On the other hand, it means your late stage missiles can be freed up for defenses, while early ones are burned for secrets/shards.)

That is possible. Heavyweight could be a more fun perk than AITW, I think, but the implementation isn't quite right (and may never be), so it would be easier to get rid of that and put AITW there instead. Any thoughts on losing Heavyweight in favour of AITW, guys? At the moment, I'm leaning towards swapping it out for AITW.

Offline Logorouge

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 07:55:42 PM »
Any thoughts on losing Heavyweight in favour of AITW, guys? At the moment, I'm leaning towards swapping it out for AITW.
That's a proposition I can get behind. I'll miss my early game mowing abilities, but it might be for the best. :)

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2017, 11:09:09 AM »
Limit both to a different subset of mechs? For example, put AITW on the low max missile mechs?
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2017, 12:11:16 PM »
put AITW on the low max missile mechs?

Yes. All my yes.

Offline Timerlane

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Re: Starward Rogue Update 1.507 "Difficulty Smoothing"
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »
Yeah, I have to admit that AITW sounded perfect for Deep Blue(IIRC, it has a starting missile capacity of 2, I think?).