Poll

Should Brawler Mode be added as an option?

No. Full shields between rooms is good. (current implementation)
11 (50%)
Yes. Regenerate to full health and shields between rooms.
4 (18.2%)
Yes. Regenerate health slowly over time + full health and shields between rooms.
2 (9.1%)
Yes. Regenerate health and shields over time + full health and shields between rooms.
1 (4.5%)
Yes. Regenerate shields over time + full health and shields between rooms.
3 (13.6%)
No preferences.
1 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode  (Read 2561 times)

Offline ptarth

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Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« on: November 01, 2016, 01:42:01 AM »
An ongoing debate that's raged since the release of the game is: How should the player regenerate health?

At one end of the spectrum you have hard core Touhou mechanics, you get hit once and game over. At the other end you have regenerating health and shields. Currently, health is regained via healing items and shields regenerate to full after each room. However, there are other options that I've been lobbying for in the face of opposition from Misery and Pepisolo. This ability for the player to have passive regeneration is something we've taken to calling Brawler Mode. My most recent effort is to start an ongoing poll to see where other people (rather than just us) stand on the issue. My current preference is to regenerate health to full between rooms along with a regenerating shield inside of rooms.

The reason I bring this up is because I believe that brawler mode will make the game more approachable to the general player (and it also matches my skill level).

What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 01:44:50 AM by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2016, 08:47:27 AM »
Didn't personally like any of the suggestions, aside from the current one. I imagined a Touhou version in Starward for a moment. That would be horrible. It's too full of randomness and hard to predict patterns for a 1HKO.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2016, 09:30:41 AM »
We'd have to rebalance basically everything for this to function without the player becoming immortal (or I'd have to multiply the amount of crap everything flings at you... it's probably best if I don't have to do that).   Among other big issues.

It's one thing to make a game approachable, but this just isn't the right way to do it.   However I thought about your other proposition (mentioned in the document, I believe), and we can go over this with the others, but if you'd like to just get one special "game isn't balanced around this" mech in... like with Redshift... that specifically uses this mechanic, that might be acceptable.  Maybe.  It'd have to be discussed.


If the issue is the difficulty of the game on Normal mode, perhaps some things need to be toned down, is all.  I need to know what those things are though, and if that indeed needs to be done. 

Remember, one way or another, this sort of game is meant to be pretty tough.   It also already does offer the player lots of tools to win with, though.

But yeah, if there's issues with difficulty balance, I need specifics, if anyone has any.

Offline Chthon

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2016, 10:35:16 AM »
Might I suggest another option? Keep health and shields as they are now, but have the player automatically suck up available health when they need it moving to a new room. This prevents unwanted backtracking.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 10:53:27 AM »
As an expert not very good player, I don't believe any rebalancing is necessary. I still manage to die quite easily with any of these variants. I suppose one solution is for me to record videos so that Misery can watch my misery and then see he and I do not see the world in equal parts. ;)

The problem (probably) isn't that I can't do it. It is that I just stop caring about precision movement halfway through the game. A couple of those 'Meh" moments and I'm dead.

I consider the brawler mode to be an alternative to game saving or a continue on death system. Which would make the game more like Ys, DFO, or beat'em ups.

The other important thing to note is this would be an option. You wouldn't have to use it. Just like you don't have to use SHMUP movement.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:02:31 AM by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Dominus Arbitrationis

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 11:03:02 AM »
As an expert not very good player, I don't believe any rebalancing is necessary. I still manage to die quite easily with any of these variants. I suppose one solution is for me to record videos so that Misery can watch my misery and then see he and I do not see the world in equal parts. ;)

The problem (probably) isn't that I can't do it. It is that I just stop caring about precision movement halfway through the game. A couple of those 'Meh" moments and I'm dead.

I consider the brawler mode to be an alternative to game saving or a continue on death system. Which would make the game more like Ys, DFO, or beat'em ups.

I think that just having it as an option and saying THIS IS NOT BALANCED would work too. That way you have to specifically enable it, and if you don't want it you don't touch it. Kind of like cheat codes.
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Online Pepisolo

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 12:27:56 PM »
As an expert not very good player, I don't believe any rebalancing is necessary. I still manage to die quite easily with any of these variants. I suppose one solution is for me to record videos so that Misery can watch my misery and then see he and I do not see the world in equal parts. ;)

The problem (probably) isn't that I can't do it. It is that I just stop caring about precision movement halfway through the game. A couple of those 'Meh" moments and I'm dead.

I consider the brawler mode to be an alternative to game saving or a continue on death system. Which would make the game more like Ys, DFO, or beat'em ups.

I think that just having it as an option and saying THIS IS NOT BALANCED would work too. That way you have to specifically enable it, and if you don't want it you don't touch it. Kind of like cheat codes.

Yeah, the only way I can see it working is if we have a Cheat Code menu that disables achievements. We could put all kinds of different options in then. SHMUP mode only changes how the control method works in a very small way, it's more of a nicety as an input option. Brawler mode would completely break the standard balance of the game, though.

Offline Dominus Arbitrationis

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2016, 02:57:15 PM »
I'd have to look into adding an entirely new menu, but in theory it shouldn't be difficult (Now watch as its next to impossible). I set up the framework of Brawler Mode to disable achievements, which was super simple.
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Offline Logorouge

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2016, 06:07:12 PM »
I still manage to die quite easily with any of these variants. I suppose one solution is for me to record videos so that Misery can watch my misery and then see he and I do not see the world in equal parts. ;)

The problem (probably) isn't that I can't do it. It is that I just stop caring about precision movement halfway through the game. A couple of those 'Meh" moments and I'm dead.
Personally, I think I would enjoy seeing your videos. It's always fun to see someone take a completely different approach to the game.

As for the subject at hand, instead of a separate option that's split away from the main game mode (that's how I see it at least), I would much rather see it integrated smoothly into the game as special powers, items (like the squishy hull), a brawler mech, etc.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2016, 06:17:22 PM »
Alternative: one mech that throws out ALL pickups (cards, health, credits) in favor of generating items based on kills or killstreaks.

Offline Misery

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2016, 07:30:10 PM »
As an expert not very good player, I don't believe any rebalancing is necessary. I still manage to die quite easily with any of these variants. I suppose one solution is for me to record videos so that Misery can watch my misery and then see he and I do not see the world in equal parts. ;)

The problem (probably) isn't that I can't do it. It is that I just stop caring about precision movement halfway through the game. A couple of those 'Meh" moments and I'm dead.

Well, see, that's part of the problem. 

The reason why many players would just be outright immortal with regenerating health is because they *would* be still doing all the dodging, even if they're not too good at it.  But any hits they took, they could just suck it up and regen and then dive back in.  The ONLY things in the game that could probably stop them in this case would be the major heavy-hitters like Terminus as it's currently balanced (nothing to hide behind in it's room, and it hits like a freight train).   But 95% of the game isn't giant solo boss monsters.

Quote
Yeah, the only way I can see it working is if we have a Cheat Code menu that disables achievements. We could put all kinds of different options in then. SHMUP mode only changes how the control method works in a very small way, it's more of a nicety as an input option. Brawler mode would completely break the standard balance of the game, though.


If you guys want to put stuff like that in a big cheat menu, that's fine by me.  You can come up with other loopy things if you'd like, too.  Cheat menus are fine.  They're usually hidden (or half-hidden) somehow though? 


Have any cheats used appear on the results screens.  You know, at the end of the game and between rooms.  Heck, display any incredibilities taken, while we're at it (since with those it's like, hey, you managed it while this horrible thing was turned on!).


Might I suggest another option? Keep health and shields as they are now, but have the player automatically suck up available health when they need it moving to a new room. This prevents unwanted backtracking.

Wouldn't work with this type of game really.  A lot of pickups, including health, are placed behind traps, bombables, or whatever.  So with pretty much every game in this genre it means that just because a pickup is there, you cant necessarily get at it without danger or spending resources (and sucking them in would break that).  I suspect this is a big part of why the devs of Enter the Gungeon came up with their warp system; it's certainly a huge reason as to why we're now using a similar mechanic.   To make the backtracking much faster, since there's no real way to totally avoid it.



« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:33:58 PM by Misery »

Offline Chthon

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2016, 11:26:56 PM »
Might I suggest another option? Keep health and shields as they are now, but have the player automatically suck up available health when they need it moving to a new room. This prevents unwanted backtracking.

Wouldn't work with this type of game really.  A lot of pickups, including health, are placed behind traps, bombables, or whatever.  So with pretty much every game in this genre it means that just because a pickup is there, you cant necessarily get at it without danger or spending resources (and sucking them in would break that).  I suspect this is a big part of why the devs of Enter the Gungeon came up with their warp system; it's certainly a huge reason as to why we're now using a similar mechanic.   To make the backtracking much faster, since there's no real way to totally avoid it.
If pickups were designed to not spawn unless you can actually get to them, I.e. in breakables or openables, then you'd have to be able to get to them once to access them. Then this would simply be a bonus for having gotten to it once.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 12:34:38 AM »
My "third option" would be to regenerate HP between floors.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 02:07:29 AM »
30% of the people responded, thus far, in this poll think that Brawler Mode is, in some form, reasonable.
I believe that is enough people for it to be considered legitimate.

It is true that 10 people, especially since probably 5 of them are directly involved in the war, isn't a large sample.
So I simply ask, how many people would have to vote in favor for it be legitimate in your eyes?

Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline windlesszephyr

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Re: Starward Rogue Feature Survey: Brawler Mode
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2016, 02:22:44 AM »
I guess I could weigh in here. The idea of regenerating health between rooms actually appeals to me a lot, but specifically for the hard and misery modes, since each room on its own feelslike a unique bullet hell challenge. Like, in normal mode I think things are fine as they are, but when higher difficulties mean the game is more bullet hell oriented and less rougelike, brawler mode sounds amazing.