Arcen Games
General Category => Starward Rogue => Topic started by: Misery on May 12, 2016, 02:48:18 am
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Okay, so, there's some more changes upcoming as I work on enemy HP balancing, I figured I may as well list a few of them, just let people know what's going on.
Firstly: many enemies have 3 variants that can appear. For many of these, the third variant, usually the most dangerous of the 3, will now only appear in the late-game; this either means floors 6-7, or floors 5-7. The other 2 variants will appear early as usual but NOT in the late-game. This means the late-game will mostly only contain the most dangerous variants.
Some enemies that didn't really have variants will also now have one, and that one will be their late-game version. Dark Demesne says hi. You'll want to get rid of that one fast.
But not just that: the late-game variants will have inflated HP now. They aren't going to die instantly anymore. So that makes it harder yet, and it works well with the better damage/power progression.
And, on top of that, some of the already-existing late-game-only enemies have also had their HP increased, sometimes by a lot. There's an enemy called a Larva, which spawns when a Bubble goes nuclear, that's supposed to roam around for quite awhile, filling the area with slow-moving pain until you get rid of it. For some reason, I'd decided that 150 HP was a lot. It wasn't. 900, however, is, for an enemy that's so tiny... A variety of enemies will get this treatment. Even some of the big guys.
Some more room fixes coming with this too... I swear, this bit of fixing never freaking ends.
Probably doing something about the defensive drones, they need a bit of dampening as right now they are indeed too strong. I'm experimenting with that. Also, there's an issue with the robot shop that causes ONLY the defensive drones and that fire trail drone to appear in the shop in the last couple of floors, I think I can fix that too.
Boss HP changes coming too. Terminus being the biggest one. With a grand total of 36000 HP, he's going to be able to take a lot of punishment now. But he's certainly not the only one that got buffed (he is, though, the only one that got buffed THAT much).
And lastly.... Face Rippers, those weakest of foes, just might get their revenge once you get deep enough. Don't say I didn't warn you about these. Hahaha...
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Here might not be the right place, but I'm asking anyway.
I feel very hard to remember enemies' names ingame because they appear after receiving a first shot but before dying, thus making the name displayed while shooting at the target. While the game is a bullet hell, players are highly encouraged to not read at the name while shooting and dodging.
I'm remembered Bionic Dues has a little console that lists actions that occurred during the turn. I think SR would benefit from at least some short-lived "XXX destroyed" text lines in a corner of the screen to be looked at after a fight.
Also, the names of some enemies are rather cryptic and hard to remember. But maybe just making the names visible after the fighting would be enough.
What do you think?
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Couldn't hurt, though I have no idea how difficult or not that would be to implement.
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Sounds good. Having the variants turn up more routinely late game seems good to me. It also helps with the feeling of exploration a little, so that the game isn't just seeming to throw out random HP buffed enemies.
Defender Drone doesn't seem too far off to me. Just decrease it's burst fire rate to every 30 seconds. The version in SVN is actually already slightly nerfed as it doesn't burst for as long.
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Wow, sounds great :D
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Me like. Good stuff.
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Just finished hard. THERE stuff seems to have about the right amount of hp... well possibly not for your vision of hard but enemies didn't just fall over. Only Terminus was a bit weak again, fight took around 2min i think.
The first lvls of hard are really tough but once you get a good build running with some hp to spare then things become much more managable. So after about lvl3 difficulty was pretty constant (with the exception of a few super nasty rooms in 6 and 7), in contrast to normal which just drops to the floor after warden atm.
Btw, is there an eta for that new hp/enemy patch?
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Just finished hard. THERE stuff seems to have about the right amount of hp... well possibly not for your vision of hard but enemies didn't just fall over. Only Terminus was a bit weak again, fight took around 2min i think.
The first lvls of hard are really tough but once you get a good build running with some hp to spare then things become much more managable. So after about lvl3 difficulty was pretty constant (with the exception of a few super nasty rooms in 6 and 7), in contrast to normal which just drops to the floor after warden atm.
Btw, is there an eta for that new hp/enemy patch?
No particular ETA, as I'm about as accurate with time as someone throwing darts while in a tornado, but it's nearly done.
It's not just about buffing HP, but moreso about getting enemies to fulfill their roles; some of them had HP that was REALLY off. Hell, I found one that had just 15. 15! I don't know why I did that. There's some that are supposed to be tanky that are just sad, a couple of specific ones that ARENT supposed to be tanky but had too much HP...
Mostly I just need to test it a few more times on my end, with different types of builds.
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Is the removal of Anklebitters (the ones that gave big bullet hugs) due to some upcoming changes for them?
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If you're thinking the green bullet jaws of death, those aren't anklebiters. Those are chompers.
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If you're thinking the green bullet jaws of death, those aren't anklebiters. Those are chompers.
No no, I'm really thinking of anklebitters, with the side rows of bullets that fold back toward the anklebitter. Chompers are still very present ingame. One just cost me a good Risky Assassin run. :P
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THAT one is the anklebiter.
I rarely ever had a problem with those guys.
I don't mind them being gone, but I never realized that was their name.
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Wait, what? Why remove Ankle Biters? O_o They're awesome. Horrifying, but awesome.
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Wait, what? Why remove Ankle Biters? O_o They're awesome. Horrifying, but awesome.
#BlameMisery
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Basically the Anklebiter's pattern encourages or sometimes forces the player to charge at them in order to hit them without being hit yourself, since the safe spot (often the only safe spot) is right in front of the thing.
This creates undodgable situations depending on the layout and what's going on. If the thing is on the other side of a laser, and there are other lasers around keeping you from simply diving out of the way of the entire cone? There's nothing you can do but fire a missile or something in order to not get hit. Though, due to the duality of the pattern, one missile cant usually protect you from this (and FORCING the player to fire one in order to not get hit is a no-no to begin with). With weapon range being what it is, you also usually cannot just sit outside of it's range to attack it. The level design also often makes it so you cannot do that anyway.
I tried one fix after another to try to resolve this, but in the end found no solution.
And the rule for me is that if something can produce undodgable attacks in situations that aren't purely the player's fault (for example, trying to hide in a corner when something fires a wall at you, when you don't HAVE to hide there), I'm going to stomp down on them hard. In this case, the Anklebiters were disabled, and the Lumiflares created to take their place.
I'll stick the Biters back in if I should find a solution to that issue. Or once I get the category thing done, which I still need to do and will start on when the HP thing is done. They wont be nearly as common as they used to be though.
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And the rule for me is that if something can produce undodgable attacks in situations that aren't purely the player's fault (for example, trying to hide in a corner when something fires a wall at you, when you don't HAVE to hide there), I'm going to stomp down on them hard. In this case, the Anklebiters were disabled, and the Lumiflares created to take their place.
I'll stick the Biters back in if I should find a solution to that issue. Or once I get the category thing done, which I still need to do and will start on when the HP thing is done. They wont be nearly as common as they used to be though.
I understand. But using the same rule, I'm a bit surprised the aforementioned Chompers weren't disabled though, with their insta-hit spawn-under-your-foot jaws...Anyway, thank you for taking the time to explain all this, much appreciated.
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Chomper's safe spot is "stand still." :P
AFAICT their main bullet pattern (attempts to be) right on top of the player, which is safe.
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Yes, the Chompers have issues, mostly the fact that their jaws are about to appear just needs to be telegraphed; it just hasn't been done yet. But it's a fairly simple fix.
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Yeah, Chompers are the only enemy that maybe I have problems with at the moment -- I'm probably overly tolerant of "annoying" enemies in general, though, for some reason. I guess I kind of just like some enemies to be jerks, heh.
As for Anklebiters, we've discussed these quite a bit internally, but personally I've just never had any problems with them. If I'm at distance from them, I would just outrange them, if I get caught close to them I would stand right next to them. I don't recall them ever being in a position that I found frustrating. I'm not saying that can't happen, but I just haven't experienced it (or can't remember). In any case, these should be returning once they are re-categorized, so they will be back at some point, and with no possible way of being awkwardly positioned. Hurrah!
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The situation in those rooms with traps and lasers are Miser's concern (lumiflares pushed me into a situation like that the other day, ended up taking two damage from I-don-know-what and then ran into a laser too late, then ran into a lumiflare projectile).
But yeah, if you keep them out of rooms like that, they're fine. At least their projectiles can't penetrate walls.
There's one of those enemies that spits out lines of projectiles; typically green (safe cone when it aims right at you, red is denser and has a longer line of projectiles that come right at you). I hate those guys. Every time they hide behind a wall I curse.
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Ah, those guys.
Amusingly, the ones with the lines were designed by Chris, not me :D
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Hehe.
I think they're responsible for most of the damage I take because they're so hard to maneuver around, even if they don't move and the rest of the room is empty (obstacles aside).
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*tries to desperately remember what a Lumiflare is*
I really can't remember these guys. What do they do?
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These guys:
(http://i.imgur.com/njgH55j.jpg)
They're the ones that replaced Anklebiters. They tend to fill areas with danger via the spark fields they drop. Each spark fires one slow-moving shot at you after a slightly random amount of time. Two shots on Hard.
Also, taking hands off the controller to take a screenshot: Not the brightest move, as my healthbar in the pic shows.
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Yeah, so imagine two or three of those offscreen in that "maze of spikes" room with lasers. It was awful.
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Oh THOSE guys. Right.
Now who do I need to punch for coming up with them?
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"Blame Misery"
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Oh THOSE guys. Right.
Now who do I need to punch for coming up with them?
Why does anyone even ask this anymore?
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Oh THOSE guys. Right.
Now who do I need to punch for coming up with them?
Why does anyone even ask this anymore?
In the vain hope that it just might be someone else. :)
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Speaking of enemies that'll drive you crazy, I was bored so this is happening:
(http://i.imgur.com/1Swq4hq.jpg)
What even is that? What does it do aside from having gigantic shots? What category of enemy is it?
WHO CAN GUESS?
I have named it "Fragment". There'll be 3 variations. Yes it's coming with the next update.
You're welcome.
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You're a dick. ;D
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You're a dick. ;D
With sparkles.
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So I'm on the right track, then. Good to know!
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So I'm on the right track, then. Good to know!
On track like an astro-train en route to a human homeworld.
;D
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I was tempted to ask "What are astro trains?" because no one ever uses them. :D
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I was tempted to ask "What are astro trains?" because no one ever uses them. :D
#SickBurn
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Adding a new "Fearsome" type enemy too here.
Working on adding some more variations to older enemies that never got any, and one of them just went... so horribly wrong... so I gave it a ton of HP and turned it into a Fearsome. Logical, yes? Fearsome being the same category that things like the Sideshot and Demesne appear in. Pretty sure this is worse, despite it's slower bullets. It's a screen-filler, definitely. No screenshots on this guy. I'll leave it as an amusing surprise.
The other 2 variations of the enemy in the screenshots that I posted before will also be an amusing couple of surprises. Amusing for me, anyway. It's likely to turn out to be the most dangerous enemy in it's category.
There'll end up being a number of other new ships though as a result of this update since I'm sticking the new variations of old ones in here. I meant to do this quite some time ago but simply never did...
I'll also be interested to see any reactions to the new Steel Faceripper. Nothing else in the game does what that thing now does. Late-game only though, that.
So, some interesting enemy stuffs coming up in the next update that should fix HP for different roles (really? The later variations of Waiting Widows had 35 base HP? No wonder they died if you looked at them too hard) and should add some more general variety. And possibly kill the player.
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one of them just went... so horribly wrong...
Sounds like AI messing with Neinzul to make the Teuthida.
An AI/Neinzul hybrid experiment gone wrong.
:P
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Why are you so evil?
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Because it's entertaining, of course.
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(https://d3gqasl9vmjfd8.cloudfront.net/f9b5968a-69cb-475b-83f8-a2b4c2cc12fc.png) (http://shirt.woot.com/offers/chaotic-evil-1)
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So, since this next patch is looking to be quite a bit bigger than I'd originally thought, I figured I might point out another thing that's brewing here.
Ptarth has been working on improving the consumables shop, which will now sell 7 things at once instead of just 3. Most of these will now cost around 7 credits... a pretty darn good price considering just how strong many of the consumables can be (seriously, something like that One Way Barrier for instance; try dropping that right in front of Wallmaster and watch how easy that fight gets...). Mystery Circuits, the things that are a lot like Isaac's pills, or potions in traditional roguelikes, will also appear there. Like with Isaac, these will be "identified" when used (some will randomly start out identified though) and often have strong effects, so it can be worth it to check these. Consumables are also mostly being moved OUT of other shops, since having pools blended like that is a little wonky.
Hmm.... it's occurred to me that it might be nice to have some sort of items that are capable of identifying Mystery Circuits before the player uses them. Isaac has an item like that, which is usually one I grab ASAP when possible (many roguelikes have such a thing too). I dunno why this didn't occur to me until just now...
Also, Inferno Cannon. You're welcome.
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Hmm.... it's occurred to me that it might be nice to have some sort of items that are capable of identifying Mystery Circuits before the player uses them.
Sacrifice shop item?
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Hmm.... it's occurred to me that it might be nice to have some sort of items that are capable of identifying Mystery Circuits before the player uses them.
Sacrifice shop item?
Hmm, depends on just how desirable it'd be to the player and how it'd work.
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Put me down as being anti-potion id item.
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Whaaaat? Why's that?
I always think it helps to give the player some sort of potential tool to identify things like this. And a lot of the MCs that are positive are pretty good (though maybe not AS good as things like Healing Nanites) and worth identifying to reduce the risk of the bad ones (which can be nasty). Provided of course that the player is willing to buy said item or manages to find it somewhere.
If there's some balance issue or something you think I'm missing here, by all means, lemme know.
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I feel I don't find enough mystery circuits in a run to justify buying an identifier item. However, if mystery circuits start to happen more often, like several per floor, and if the identifier definitively identify all circuits, I might take it, even in sacrificial room (provided I find it early enough).
How is the chests / keys / small permanent rewards story going?
Stray idea: a pair of items, "Yin" and "Yang"; one give a big permanent bonus, the other gives an equally big permanent malus, but each run their effects (good and bad) are randomly attributed to one or the other (they're not part of the mysterious circuit pool and aren't identified like them). When finding one, the player might want to wait for the other; when having both, the player can consume one, and consume or ignore the second if the first had the malus or the bonus, respectively. Having both lead to 50% chances for a big bonus and 50% chances for canceling bonus and malus, whereas consuming the first just when found can lead to a flat malus if the second isn't found later (or while it's not found).
Worth mantising?
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I'm not sure I understood that idea correctly.
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I'm not sure I understood that idea correctly.
Me neither.
I think what he tries to do is another item (a pair, in fact) that works on the same mechanism of unknown bonus/malus as the mysterious circuits. The point with only two items and the guarantee that one will always be beneficial (and the other being always bad) is that if you consume one, you know the other. If you take the bad one first, you also consume the good one and your are even; if you take the good first, you discard the bad one and keep the bonus.
However I'm not sure. He's post was rather confused, to say the least.
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I have no idea what's even going on here.
As for the mystery circuits, hmm. Do we need to have those appearing more often? When I think about it, once I HAVE identified one I usually never see it again for the rest of that run.
One reason though for an identifying item is that some of the mystery circuits are temporary effects; like, a whole lot of extra damage or something for a full 30 seconds. That's a really huge effect (30 seconds is a LONG time to be dishing out a ton of extra damage or whatever), but normally, using a mystery circuit in the heat of battle isn't the brightest move, if it's not a revealed one.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the MCs?
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And I've just been utterly destroyed by my own overpowered upcoming new enemy. That Fragment thing... hmm.
Occurs to me that MAYBE I'll tone it down a bit. Possibly that might be a good idea.
That was after 5 freaking floors, too, ugh.
I blame Windows.
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Whaaaat? Why's that?
2 Major reasons that are all probably rationalized
1. Complicated - I don't see how to easily code it.
2. Not very important - There are very few with long term negative effects. Most are good. And most that are bad don't have a long term effect.
3. Good is too Good - Some of the ones that are good, are very, very good. So at least this way there is a little bit of a slow down on the powers the player gets. Once I finally get it released, I think you'll be demanding that we actually tone them down.
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I was thinking...
Currently, there is possibly bad outcomes, so I don't use them in a fight. And while there is mostly temporary outcomes, I don't find it interesting to consume-test them outside of fight. And while I never find the same twice in a game, I see no point in testing them for later identification.
But if all Mystery Circuits were guaranteed to be both good and temporary, it would make for some fun outcomes. Like "oh, I'm faster... against Wall Master. Nice ><" or surprise damage boost, or surprise defense/immunity, etc. This way, they would be usable during a fight and the player would have a beneficial boost at the cost of adaptation to the random effect. Maybe mysterious circuits could even be always mysterious; one type of consumable with a random effect. That kind, I would use. Or maybe if the bad effects were still temporary, a little bit rarer and manageable in a fight, like half speed, half damages, depletes shields, etc, I would still try them in a fight.
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If they showed up more often so that there was an increased likelyhood of seeing them more than once, then it'd be worth identifying them just by using them.
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Hmm.... it's occurred to me that it might be nice to have some sort of items that are capable of identifying Mystery Circuits before the player uses them. Isaac has an item like that, which is usually one I grab ASAP when possible (many roguelikes have such a thing too). I dunno why this didn't occur to me until just now...
Ah, similar to Isaac's PHD but only the ID part, right? I'd use that. If it's a sacrifice item, you'll have to pay health now for a possible future benefit. I like it. Things like reduced range or reduced speed are crippling enough that I would sacrifice a bit of life to avoid them completely. And now that the circuits can show up in the shop, they'll be frequent enough to make a desirable item to grab I think.
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If they showed up more often so that there was an increased likelyhood of seeing them more than once, then it'd be worth identifying them just by using them.
Yes, to some degree there needs to be more of a chance of actually seeing the same ones more than once.
What about the way Isaac does it? In that, there's a whole ton of different pill effects, but each time you start a new game only a certain number of them are randomly chosen, and only those that are chosen can appear in that run. Even if you were to somehow just use a wacky synergy that keeps farting out pills, you'd never see any that aren't the 7 or 8 that it chose to go with that run. That's probably the only reason why the pills even work out in that game. Like with this, there'd be too many effects otherwise.
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Selecting a sub-pool of mystery circuits for each game sounds good to me. Also, several Arcen's games do something like that: bot and boss types in Bionic Dues, ships and guardians in AIW.
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Aye, that is a good point.
Is it plausible with the game engine though, that's the question...? I personally have no idea how hard or not that might be to implement, but indeed it would really work much better for the MCs. They'd just seem a lot better overall that way and give more motivation for the player to identify them, so hopefully that's feasible.
Ptarth, any idea on the viability of this one?