Some balance concerns

[Pepisolo]

The grenade launchers could be converted to energy weapons. The cancelling wouldn't matter nearly as much then. Either that or the cancelling effect should be removed. Can't remember if that's possible in the engine, though.

IIRC it's an attribute for the weapon, so you should be able to turn off the cancelling.

Nice. Easy fix on that, then. A non-cancelling launcher should be fine.

[Misery]

I will agree that grenade launcher shouldn't cancel as well. As for not clearing the bullets for each wave... He is the ultimate boss, is he not? I think that would make him a bit more unique there.

Perhaps the problem for me is that I don't seem to be able to get there unless I have the huge damage output That very well may be the problem here. XD

Actually the reason why the shockwaves are there to begin with for any boss is to prevent patterns from mixing and generating an undodgable wall.  Which is the thing I consider to be basically the cardinal sin of the genre.  This is also why teleporters prevent anything from firing for a couple of seconds after you use them.

One way or another, it'd be nice to see this sorted out.  Not just for the damage stuffs to be lowered, but for other options to be made more attractive.  So the player doesnt feel like big damage is the only way to go.

[ptarth]

• Tried to load save, but there are a ton of modded things in it. I'll need those.
• Damage perks do need to be halved or so.
• Shot removal removal on AOE weapons may not be directly removable in xml. But a similar effect should be possible.
• Will the Cluster Launcher and Grenade Launcher be good enough without shot removal?

[Logorouge]

• Will the Cluster Launcher and Grenade Launcher be good enough without shot removal?

Without friendly fire? Definitely. They still pack quite the punch with some nice aoe too.

[Chthon]

I'm not sure I liked the "Halved damage" idea. How about this instead?

First perk of one type gives you full benefit. Second one of that type also gives full benefit IF you have no more than 3 total +damage perks. If you have more than 3 +damage perks the second gives you 50%. The 3rd and beyond give you 50% less than the previous one in that line.

If you have more than 3 + damage perks it picks the strongest 3 perks to give you it in full, and the rest are diminished. Multiplier effects are always chosen first.

I consider level up perks, boss drops, and expansion items to all be perks in this model. Health shop items are exempt from this because they cost more and more the more you get. Also I would like to see this reflected in the tooltip when you're choosing, and perhaps an overall boost on the status screen so we can keep track of how much in each stat you have. For example the tooltip might say "+50% base damage (+175%->+187.5%)"

If you do this, you don't risk upsetting the balance of the original damage perks by nerfing them too much out of the box, while you would encourage players to spread around their upgrades more.

Another way to nerf it as well would be to add more unique upgrades. Perhaps flat damage bonuses which would be better for someone with a high fire rate, or damage buffs under certain conditions (lost a shield for example) Right now I feel the upgrade system suffers from lack of variety.

[ptarth]

• Modules aren't really aware of each other.
• Buffs can be set to only use the largest one of a type.
• Stacking the damage multipliers like that isn't supposed to happen. I think its because Brute Type effects show up too much in the perk trees. We need to work on that by adding more perks.
• Making those changes should get us to a new place where we can make some more progress.

[Misery]

• Modules aren't really aware of each other.
• Buffs can be set to only use the largest one of a type.
• Stacking the damage multipliers like that isn't supposed to happen. I think its because Brute Type effects show up too much in the perk trees. We need to work on that by adding more perks.
• Making those changes should get us to a new place where we can make some more progress.

These sound like good changes to me.   

[Pepisolo]

Progress report on certain bugs.

Firstly, launcher AOE shot cancelling, I haven't been able to find a workaround, but Keith says he should be able to add a flag so that we're able to switch the AOE shot destroying on or off. I'm not nagging him about it, though, considering he's probably super busy with AI War 2. We'll wait a bit. The other solution is just to convert them to energy weapons.

Humble Mech missile asteroid mining. I had a quick look but haven't found a solution yet. Anything important I'm missing? Oh, I did switch the Rocket Man thing to only last a floor, though, so that's something at least.

Oh, I've also started working on the perk overhaul.

[Pepisolo]

This just in courtesy of an engine thing Keith added:

"Grenade Launcher and Cluster Launcher no longer destroy enemy shots (which was super OP). "

Hurrah!

[Logorouge]

This just in courtesy of an engine thing Keith added:

"Grenade Launcher and Cluster Launcher no longer destroy enemy shots (which was super OP). "

Hurrah!

Very nice! This will definitely help keep things interesting when using those.
And thanks for the Rocket Man change too. That one had been bugging me for months.

[Pepisolo]

This just in courtesy of an engine thing Keith added:

"Grenade Launcher and Cluster Launcher no longer destroy enemy shots (which was super OP). "

Hurrah!

Very nice! This will definitely help keep things interesting when using those.
And thanks for the Rocket Man change too. That one had been bugging me for months.

Yeah, it's nice to get those fixed. There might also be a fix in there for those R6025 errors. I say might because we can't reliably reproduce the error to test, however Ptarth looked into it a bit and Chris put a change in based on the findings that might hopefully work. We're looking to push this build sooner rather than later, I think.

[Monkooky]

I said I would whine here when I thought there were balance concerns and whine I will!
So there is an item, explodifier.
It quadruples explosive damage.
This seems to apply to the torpedo launcher secondary.
Now, I'm not absolutely certain of this, as it's possible I just had that much damage naturally (I did end up getting the quad crit thing as well).
Still, taking out half of Terminus' health in a single shot? That makes you wonder real hard.  Makes you question things, things like "Is this perhaps a bit more powerful than it ought to be?"

Attachments are, in order, start of floor save, pre-terminus save, pre-terminus screenshot, post terminus screenshot.
Take a look at time elapsed on the screenshots

[Misery]

In the version you're playing it's possible to destroy the damn thing without it even firing a shot via LOTS of possible means.

The next version should change all of that.  Even doing a completely damage-focused run myself (which previously would have erased the thing without effort) the fight in the version I'm playing was.... long.  Player damage cant go out of control anymore, and also that boss is very bloody tanky now.  There wont be any running over bosses or entire areas like a deranged lawnmower anymore.


That being said, the torpedo thing should be excluded from the Explodifier effect anyway.

[ptarth]

So amusing story, a 'missile' system is anything that uses explosive damage.

Hilarious right?

It's complicated.

[Pepisolo]

It's a bit hard to say how broken the Torpedo Launcher interaction is in the current build given how much damage can get out of control by the time you reach Terminus. Explodifier has been reduced to triple damage in the latest build, though.