Author Topic: Some balance concerns  (Read 2355 times)

Offline Chthon

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 07:47:02 AM »
I've killed the super final boss on Normal twice now with perfect clears AFTER the revamp. I'm not entirely sure he shoots, as I haven't seen a single one of his bullets yet. Perhaps it's from me stacking far too much damage and just overwhelming him in about 5-8 seconds, but perhaps something is off here?

Maybe he should have a little bit more health, either that or make the phases unskippable. The problem though is what happens if you get there without the super high DPS that I've had. You don't want to turn it into a super grind. You also don't want the ultimate boss to be akin to a wet fart.

Edit: Another idea, make the enemy phases not tied to boss health. You walk in to the boss and he's already got the shield up. As you kill the enemies he summons new ones, until you get through however many enemy phases there are. Only then does the shield drop and you can burst him down.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 07:55:02 AM by Chthon »

Offline Misery

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 10:06:52 AM »
I'll be honest, none of that made sense to me, in terms of how that could be working.

I went and experimented a bit though.

I hadn't spotted it before but when the second phase starts, there's a bizarre delay after the shockwave where the player can fire, but the boss cannot.  I'd thought the unique system that gives the boss it's shield might have had a delay set on it for some baffling reason, but there isn't one.  Nor on the other systems, but there's still a delay AFTER the shockwave is completely finished.

I tried removing the shockwave to see what happens.  Now when the boss changes phases, the shield is *instant*, as is the launching of the spawner shots that summon it's two buddies.  So that's one fix... sort of.... it prevents the phase-screen-clear though, which is a problem.

However, defeating the boss without it generating any bullets should STILL be impossible.  The thing starts firing the instant the room begins, like any other boss.  And I really mean "instant" there.  You'd have to be using a weapon with 500+ damage per shot (as the first phase, which summons nothing and uses a gold and blue pattern, has 500 HP as a base, as it's meant to be a short phase) that has zero travel time or simply strikes the entire screen in order to kill it before it has a chance to fire it's first bullets.  Actually, it'd have to be more than 500 with the scaling.

Furthermore, Terminus (that's the one you mean, right?  Not the Warden, I hope) has 9600 HP as a base when all of it's phases are put together.  That's before the game inflates the value for it being in stage 7.  Much of that is in it's final two phases, each of which is 3300 HP by itself.  Again, that's just the base value.  Even if the game didn't inflate the numbers, you'd have to be doing 3300 damage instantly to clear those two phases before the boss can fire.  But with the inflation, it'd have to be quite a lot higher, as I understand it.  Basically, Terminus's last two phases have enough HP total to equal a normal 2-phase boss. 

Either way though, if you're doing damage equal to it's 9600 HP *after*  that inflation in order to take it down in under 8 seconds without ANY phase firing (and it has 7 phases), then something is definitely wrong.  Nothing should be doing damage that incredibly fast. 

I know the thing's HP values aren't perfect, but that's mostly on the enemies it summons (they're a bit too low) and something I intend on changing for the next build.  I might up the last two phases a bit as well, but not by THAT much.  Like I said, those final two phases are pretty typical for a boss in terms of HP.

If you have that level of damage, no change to the boss itself is REALLY going to fix it.  You'd have been tearing up stage 7 without even a threat of taking damage as it is.  Even the Flak Launcher, one of the strongest Fearsome types in the game and one that appears in 6/7 only has a max of 1500 HP, if I recall correctly (which is very tanky for a non-boss).  So basic enemies practically wouldn't even exist against damage like that.


I cant imagine what must be causing that.   One thing's for certain, it's not a thing I personally can fix.  As you said, the boss needs to be designed for a fight that doesn't involve the player having ultra high DPS.

Though, here's the question:  how many times have you actually fought the thing?  I mustn't forget just what genre we're in, after all.  It's an Isaac-inspired game, and in this type of game there's always the chance of getting an OP build with a bit of luck and careful choices put together.  I don't want to remove the chance of that happening (because it's an occaisional thing that' kinda expected with this type of game, outside of Nuclear Throne).   But it should be a RARE thing.   And even then, doing what must be 10000+ damage in 5-8 seconds is way too much even for a non-broken OP run.

What mech are you doing this with?  What sorts of items are you using, and with what weapons?  If you remember that, that'd be a big help to know.

Hoboy.  Lots of math here though.  Much of which I don't know.  I just deal with the enemy side of the game.  My job is just to cover the screen in flashy insanity and kill the player a lot, and set enemy stats, and then complain alot. Item/perk/whatever balance is all up to the others. 


Ugh, very confusing.  All I'm going to do is confuse the situation more if I keep ranting about this.  But what I do know is that while Terminus's HP could do with some tweaking... as I had already figured beforehand from my own playthroughs after the patch.... everything ELSE doesn't need changes and tanky things are tanky enough, so I cant do anything there to prevent a player-driven Armageddon in floors 6/7.


Anyone else have any thoughts on this here?  Though I'm guessing they'd probably need info about the build you were using to get a handle on what's going on.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 10:10:34 AM by Misery »

Offline ptarth

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2016, 03:30:49 PM »
The lack of seeing any bullets suggest it may not be a balance issue, but some sort of bug. A test save right before entering the boss room would be ideal for comparing different experiences.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Chthon

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2016, 06:48:12 PM »
Yes, it was Terminus. The first time I was using the multigrenade launcher with massive damage boosts and super attack speed. The second time the Borine Shotgun with massive damage boosts. Talking about 3x Brute 2x Beast mode, +50% from the health shop which includes breaking stuff, Divine Purpose, and another % modifier on the total. Also at least 2 level ups towards 10% crit rate. Oh yeah, and homing shots both times, plus the +100% base damage module that gives spreadshots.

Yeah, I'm just pummeling him on Normal. He goes down about as fast as a normal 7th floor enemy at this point, and that's only because I have to hunt them down and find them. He's however so big and only in one place. I always walk in with the shield secondary that I can pulse and get out of a tight spot, but I never need it, because he falls over in no time flat.

He definitely has to be fixed for that.

Edit: Next time I fight him I'll make a video, and show you all of my stat ups and how quickly he dies.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2016, 06:57:50 PM »
Oh yeah, and homing shots both times

Just a quick note here, there was a homing missile weapon in beta that was removed because it was crazy OP and a no brainer to pick up.  Homing is a force multiplier that should be relatively rare and is probably why Terminus is dropping really fast.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2016, 07:06:28 PM »
Yes, it was Terminus. The first time I was using the multigrenade launcher with massive damage boosts and super attack speed. The second time the Borine Shotgun with massive damage boosts. Talking about 3x Brute 2x Beast mode, +50% from the health shop which includes breaking stuff, Divine Purpose, and another % modifier on the total. Also at least 2 level ups towards 10% crit rate. Oh yeah, and homing shots both times, plus the +100% base damage module that gives spreadshots.

Yeah, I'm just pummeling him on Normal. He goes down about as fast as a normal 7th floor enemy at this point, and that's only because I have to hunt them down and find them. He's however so big and only in one place. I always walk in with the shield secondary that I can pulse and get out of a tight spot, but I never need it, because he falls over in no time flat.

He definitely has to be fixed for that.

Edit: Next time I fight him I'll make a video, and show you all of my stat ups and how quickly he dies.

Aye, there's no fix I can make for that.  That's extreme damage and cancellation... The grenade launchers are a bit broken (which is something I spotted recently myself) and with high enough attack speed will shut down any enemy in the game by simply locking out their ability to do anything; even if your damage stat was low, you'd just have to sit there and keep firing it at whatever boss it was.  I don't remember what the Boarine shotgun does.

But it sounds like your damage stat is simply so high that it ends up not mattering, which is what I cant do anything about.   The boss can use a bit of an HP boost in a couple of ways and some minor changes, but not the sorts of changes that'll make it withstand THAT.  If I did that, a low damage build wouldn't be able to kill it, period.  Not unless you wanted to sit in that room for like an hour.


I'm wondering if damage upgrades are a bit too easy to come by?  Not too powerful on their own (like they originally were, way back when...) but just too easy to get too many of them.  I mean, that's quite a ton of damage upgrades there...

Online Pepisolo

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2016, 07:26:38 PM »
That looks like a ton of stacked damage. The damage boosters have needed to be backed down a bit for quite a while. Brute 50%, Beast Mode 75% is way too much. Wipes the floor with all the other perk choices. Double damage for that module might be too much, too.  The damage boosts are just still out of control I think. Upping enemy HP any further is just going to make non-DPS runs even more unfeasible than they currently are, so we shouldn't keep pushing those numbers up.

Offline Monkooky

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2016, 08:24:34 PM »
I've definitely skipped the minion spawns before. That should probably be fixed if nothing else.
And yeah, a lot of the DPS items are simply too strong, and act multiplicatively in too many ways. There's very little diminishing returns on DPS.

EDIT:
Empirical evidence just came in!
No grenade launcher needed, just too many DPS buffs.
I've attached a bug report save, just before Terminus. He goes down in literally 5 seconds, even if I don't get lucky with crits.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 08:40:23 PM by Monkooky »

Online Logorouge

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2016, 08:37:10 PM »
I'm wondering if damage upgrades are a bit too easy to come by?  Not too powerful on their own (like they originally were, way back when...) but just too easy to get too many of them.  I mean, that's quite a ton of damage upgrades there...
Well, I wanted to wait until I came back to SR to rant about it, but I might as well do it here and now.


At the moment, there's two major things that completely throw off the balance of the game:

1- Infinite bullet-cancelling: An ability like that is so broken in a game like this. Unfortunately it's pretty easy to do right now. Rocket man (infinite missiles until hit) gives it to you on a silver platter. Especially now that we have the new rocket launchers. Couldn't that item effect be "for the current floor or until hit" instead, considering how super powerful it is? Some players might lose it a few rooms later, but some might keep it for 2-3 floors, skipping bosses entirely along the way. I think that's a bit too extreme.

Also, the grenade launcher style weapons. If those are scheduled to have their friendly fire removed, could they also have their bullet cancelling ability removed? With no ammo limit, add a few firerate upgrades and you can just cancel everything. And unlike Rocket Man, you can still get hit and keep your bullet canceller.

2- Damage upgrades: Those are all so very high, making everything else seem irrelevant in comparison. Even if, for example Brute/Beast Mode/Destruction Module, instead of 50/75/100% were just 40/60/75%, I would still pick them often, just not every single time I see them like now.

With those two problems out of the way, I'm confident that Terminus would have plenty of time to do it's thing.

Offline Misery

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2016, 08:39:50 PM »
I've definitely skipped the minion spawns before. That should probably be fixed if nothing else.
And yeah, a lot of the DPS items are simply too strong, and act multiplicatively in too many ways. There's very little diminishing returns on DPS.

I can fix the minion skip bit, sort of.... well, I should say, I can fix the bit where the shield doesn't come up INSTANTLY like it's bloody supposed to.  But even that is not really a "fix" and will cause the shockwave not to occur.

It still though wouldn't make the fight last any longer.  Minions only have so much HP, and if you're doing enough damage to end the phase before they can even spawn, they'll go down as if they weren't there.  I intend on increasing minion HP, but not by much.  I'm not changing other HP values for now though.

One way or another, it sounds like this is mostly in the perks more than anything else. 

I wonder how hard this would be to fix?  I mean, the game is so much more balanced now than it was, at least....


Offline Misery

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2016, 08:41:28 PM »
I'm wondering if damage upgrades are a bit too easy to come by?  Not too powerful on their own (like they originally were, way back when...) but just too easy to get too many of them.  I mean, that's quite a ton of damage upgrades there...
Well, I wanted to wait until I came back to SR to rant about it, but I might as well do it here and now.


At the moment, there's two major things that completely throw off the balance of the game:

1- Infinite bullet-cancelling: An ability like that is so broken in a game like this. Unfortunately it's pretty easy to do right now. Rocket man (infinite missiles until hit) gives it to you on a silver platter. Especially now that we have the new rocket launchers. Couldn't that item effect be "for the current floor or until hit" instead, considering how super powerful it is? Some players might lose it a few rooms later, but some might keep it for 2-3 floors, skipping bosses entirely along the way. I think that's a bit too extreme.

Also, the grenade launcher style weapons. If those are scheduled to have their friendly fire removed, could they also have their bullet cancelling ability removed? With no ammo limit, add a few firerate upgrades and you can just cancel everything. And unlike Rocket Man, you can still get hit and keep your bullet canceller.

2- Damage upgrades: Those are all so very high, making everything else seem irrelevant in comparison. Even if, for example Brute/Beast Mode/Destruction Module, instead of 50/75/100% were just 40/60/75%, I would still pick them often, just not every single time I see them like now.

With those two problems out of the way, I'm confident that Terminus would have plenty of time to do it's thing.


I'll be honest here, I've been REALLY tempted to just turn the stupid grenade launchers off for quite some time.  Somehow, I didn't actually do it.  It is true, they shouldn't have the ability to cancel.  Only missiles should do this.

The idea for the infinite rockets bit sounds like a good one.  Until hit or end of floor.



Offline Monkooky

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2016, 08:54:45 PM »
For the infinite missiles, current floor or hit sounds pretty good. Might also want to make it not spawn on floor 7.
As for grenade launchers, don't forget to hit the Torpedo Launcher while you're at it.
Might also want to make explododendron not apply to the Torpedo launcher

Offline Chthon

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2016, 09:31:57 PM »
I will agree that grenade launcher shouldn't cancel as well. As for not clearing the bullets for each wave... He is the ultimate boss, is he not? I think that would make him a bit more unique there.

Perhaps the problem for me is that I don't seem to be able to get there unless I have the huge damage output :) That very well may be the problem here. XD

Online Pepisolo

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2016, 09:33:45 PM »
Quote
I'll be honest here, I've been REALLY tempted to just turn the stupid grenade launchers off for quite some time.  Somehow, I didn't actually do it.  It is true, they shouldn't have the ability to cancel.  Only missiles should do this.

The grenade launchers could be converted to energy weapons. The cancelling wouldn't matter nearly as much then. Either that or the cancelling effect should be removed. Can't remember if that's possible in the engine, though.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Some balance concerns
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2016, 09:36:58 PM »
The grenade launchers could be converted to energy weapons. The cancelling wouldn't matter nearly as much then. Either that or the cancelling effect should be removed. Can't remember if that's possible in the engine, though.

IIRC it's an attribute for the weapon, so you should be able to turn off the cancelling.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.