Arcen Games

General Category => Starward Rogue => : Pepisolo May 17, 2016, 09:34:58 AM

: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 17, 2016, 09:34:58 AM
Ok, the game needs a few more Sacrifice Room Items, so we thought we'd open this up to the community. What would you like to see? Got any interesting ideas for a Sacrifice Item? To start the ball rolling, here's a list of ideas from Ptarth:

Double the Pleasure: Enemy and Friendly shot damage doubled.
Half the Fun: Enemy and Friendly shot damage halved.
Fragile Life: Enemy and Friendly max health halved.
Conservation of Mass: +10 max health, health items no longer spawn (i.e., you only heal from perks and modules)
Bouncy Balls - All shots (friendly and enemy) riccochet
Reverse Course - All shots (friendly and enemy) reflect
Missile Identity - You lose your Energy Weapon (and can never get it back). Your missiles refill to max every room.
Missiling the Point- Max missile capacity is permanently 1, double your energy maximum.
Sticky Plasma - Your shots now intercept enemy shots (catch and hold them for X seconds), but they also do friendly fire damage.
Adrenalin - You do double damage, but you also lose 1 health every 10 seconds.
Coupon Cutter - Shop items are half price.

Do any of these stand out? Let's get brainstorming!
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: tombik May 17, 2016, 10:54:51 AM
Ok, the game needs a few more Sacrifice Room Items, so we thought we'd open this up to the community. What would you like to see? Got any interesting ideas for a Sacrifice Item? To start the ball rolling, here's a list of ideas from Ptarth:

Double the Pleasure: Enemy and Friendly shot damage doubled.
Half the Fun: Enemy and Friendly shot damage halved.
Fragile Life: Enemy and Friendly max health halved.
Conservation of Mass: +10 max health, health items no longer spawn (i.e., you only heal from perks and modules)
Bouncy Balls - All shots (friendly and enemy) riccochet
Reverse Course - All shots (friendly and enemy) reflect
Missile Identity - You lose your Energy Weapon (and can never get it back). Your missiles refill to max every room.
Missiling the Point- Max missile capacity is permanently 1, double your energy maximum.
Sticky Plasma - Your shots now intercept enemy shots (catch and hold them for X seconds), but they also do friendly fire damage.
Adrenalin - You do double damage, but you also lose 1 health every 10 seconds.
Coupon Cutter - Shop items are half price.

Do any of these stand out? Let's get brainstorming!

Most of those sound neutral if not outright negative. If I remember right sacrifice items right now was not working as Crowns in Nuclear Throne, rather Devil deals in Isaac, am I wrong?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 17, 2016, 10:59:47 AM
To be fair, not all sacrifice items are beneficial (there's one that lets you see the entire floor layout, but there's a perk/pickup that does the same thing, so why would I spend 3+ hp on it?).  But yes, the list there is kind of a mixed bag.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pumpkin May 17, 2016, 01:08:35 PM
Double the Pleasure: Enemy and Friendly shot damage doubled.
Half the Fun: Enemy and Friendly shot damage halved.
Fragile Life: Enemy and Friendly max health halved.
NO!
I mean... I personally and strongly disagree with these ideas. This personal feeling is based on the fact that, IMO, this game is built upon strong asymmetry. The life and damage for enemies and the player are fundamentally different. Doubling the damages of the player (or halving foes' life) is a huge bonus where doubling damages dealt to the player (or halving its life) seems like something some mildly skillful pals out there might handle pretty well.

TL;DR: asymmetry!

Some other game-changing (the ones around missiles and energy) sound brilliant but balance-breaking.
One more idea for the list: "no more missile count/cap; each missile cost N energy".
But, see, how to balance that with all other energy/missile items? What about items that increase missile cap?
Another idea for the list that I hope is more benign for the rest of the balance: "Each missile fired consume 2 missiles but missile damages x4" (I heard missiles are not meant to deal damage. Now they are!)

A mantra I like:
Think inside the box before trying to think outside the box.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth May 17, 2016, 02:01:26 PM
 :P

The list was originally a mix of sacrifice shop items and incredibilities with the theme of making the game different. At some point the incredibility note was dropped from the description.

The modifications to health/damage ideas are posed on the balance of shorting (or lengthening) the duration of a run (for better or worse). It is along the same lines of Deadly Assassin, but weaker. Because the changes are symmetrical, the relationship between between damage and health is preserved (except in edge cases).

As an illustration, taking the double damage for everyone idea. It would normally take the player 100 seconds to kill the Warden and the player could survive 3 shots. With this idea, the player will kill the Warden in 50 seconds, but they can only survive 1 shot. It could lead uneven player experiences, with so much damage the player can destroy things very quickly (leading to feelings of overpoweredness), but at the same time, the margin for error is tiny. One "unfair" experience (regardless of how really fair it was) and the run is over. This tends to make players angry if they overlook the consequences of their choice. Side note: Many players overlook the consequences of their choices and lack a good understanding of true randomness (see all games that implement fake randomness to lower the impact of RNG). Of course, I'm not talking about anyone who is reading this, or will be informed of this, it is only those other people who do this, not you.  :P



: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 17, 2016, 02:37:38 PM
The list was originally a mix of sacrifice shop items and incredibilities with the theme of making the game different. At some point the incredibility note was dropped from the description.

Ah, yes, this might be my fault for not reading the emails properly...or something. Maybe I should've made a Sacrifice/Incredibility brainstorm thread.

Most of those sound neutral if not outright negative. If I remember right sacrifice items right now was not working as Crowns in Nuclear Throne, rather Devil deals in Isaac, am I wrong?

Yeah, I believe Incredibilites are the Crownier equivalent in SR.

What are everyone's thoughts on:

Coupon Cutter; Shop items are half price. This seems like a simple -- although potentially OP -- very sacrifice room style item. I'm not actually sure if this is possible in the code immediately, but if not it seems fairly straightforward to implement (for Keith!).

Conservation of Mass; +10 max health, health items no longer spawn. Making it so that health items no longer spawn is interesting. Possibily more of an incredibility style item, though. How about, health no longer spawns but you regenerate 1 per room.

Another idea for the list that I hope is more benign for the rest of the balance: "Each missile fired consume 2 missiles but missile damages x4" (I heard missiles are not meant to deal damage. Now they are!)

Or potentially just have an item that doubles missile damage, maybe. Or is that not sacrifice roomy enough?

: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge May 17, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
What are everyone's thoughts on:

Coupon Cutter; Shop items are half price. This seems like a simple -- although potentially OP -- very sacrifice room style item. I'm not actually sure if this is possible in the code immediately, but if not it seems fairly straightforward to implement (for Keith!).

Conservation of Mass; +10 max health, health items no longer spawn. Making it so that health items no longer spawn is interesting. Possibly more of an incredibility style item, though. How about, health no longer spawns but you regenerate 1 per room.

Ptarth is starting strong with so many good ideas.

Coupon cutter is the main one that caught my attention. I'd pick it up in 3 runs out of 5. Though I would recommend reducing the discount to something like 33%, which is already very good with all the costly purchases you can make in a single run.

Conservation of Mass is kinda weird. It's like those powers in other games that prevents you from healing with regular items but give you vampire-style lifestealing, only in this case the vampire power is sold separately. I don't know what, but I think an alternate way to heal should be included with it. Wait, what if the player could regen health using money (3-5c per hp)...outside of combat only? Meh, sounds like a nightmare to balance.

Bouncy Balls, as it is, sounds like a super fun incredibility. If changed to affect only the player, I could see that as an interesting sacrifice item. (I'd love to see Wind try it if it's made as an incredibility)

Adrenalin - Power in exchange for losing health is interesting I think. How about instead of every 10 seconds it would be when you enter a new room? That way the player can calculate the risk/reward at any given time and offset the downside with proper planning. If it makes a player think more, I consider that as a positive thing.

The double/halved for everyone powers, I don't think would work well because of all the pattern based attacks that couldn't follow the change in pace. Make battle too fast and many patterns don't have time to do their thing. Make it too slow and attrition-style patterns become overly dangerously.

I don't understand the reflect and the sticky shot powers, could someone explain how those would act?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Atlar May 18, 2016, 05:38:07 AM
Yeah those ideas sound like incredibilities to me but coupon cutter. This one seems like spot on for a sac item. All sac items are op.
Sac items should be very strong with the only drawback being the health cost, so here are a few ideas:
- +50-100% range for main shot
- friendly bullet size x2-4
- every shop=weapon,defense or drone
- 50% chance energy shot does not deplete energy
- 50% chance missile shot does not deplete missile cap
-same effect as jaywalker incredibility (move through shot-transparent walls)
-25% chance of evasion
-more item drops from enemies
Ask someone else for cool names :p
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr May 18, 2016, 08:17:52 AM
Losing health every 10 seconds isn't worth ANY upgrade especially not since you have to sacrifice health to get it in the first place. That's definitely one I would pass up on every time.

Also people seem to have a lot more health than me. A normal run for me will see me have maybe 7 or 8 health by the end. There's not a lot of room to give away 3 to 5 health with that, much less giving yourself about a minute of life by saccing 1 health every 10 seconds. I'd basically die on the first boss as you most likely won't beat it in less than 70 seconds and there's no health in boss rooms most of the time. Even then, a single health pickup is another 10 seconds, providing you're not getting hit.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery May 18, 2016, 08:52:48 AM
Losing health every 10 seconds isn't worth ANY upgrade especially not since you have to sacrifice health to get it in the first place. That's definitely one I would pass up on every time.

Also people seem to have a lot more health than me. A normal run for me will see me have maybe 7 or 8 health by the end. There's not a lot of room to give away 3 to 5 health with that, much less giving yourself about a minute of life by saccing 1 health every 10 seconds. I'd basically die on the first boss as you most likely won't beat it in less than 70 seconds and there's no health in boss rooms most of the time. Even then, a single health pickup is another 10 seconds, providing you're not getting hit.

Wait, what?  7 or 8 health at the END?   ....surely you don't mean max health?

I... what?  How.... how is that happening?  I took TWO sacrifice room items on my last run with the damn flame mech of all things, and I still had like 28 max HP at the end.  That was at Terminus: I probably had, ah, 22 at the Warden.  This all being on Hard mode.

What is your playstyle?  I'm wondering where this HP is either going, or NOT coming from.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 18, 2016, 04:40:19 PM
- friendly bullet size x2-4
- 50% chance energy shot does not deplete energy
- 50% chance missile shot does not deplete missile cap
-25% chance of evasion

These sound pretty interesting to me. Maybe merge the chance of not-depleting ones into a single 25% chance to not use ammo or energy. I haven't looked into whether this is curretly possible in the code, though.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge May 18, 2016, 05:20:13 PM
-Change your main weapon for something else (specific special weapon or random?)

Sometimes I just get really tired of a weapon and the game doesn't want to give me another. I would gladly sacrifice a few HP to switch things up in those cases.

-Spike immunity (Sorry, I had to. :P)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheVampire100 May 18, 2016, 10:47:01 PM
Just a quick question. Can we suggest Sacrifice Shop items that are weapons? Because currently we only get perks from sacrifice shops and I think this is the main problem with the whole system.
The varity is not really big, most perks can be aquired through multiple other upgrades and the costs are too high (or too low in the earlier phases) for some stuff. You will always end up with either "I got too much health so I will just buy this thing" or "this isn't so good compared to the price, I will pass it".

I think other stuff coudl shake things really up. A new main weapon, a new energy weapon. I would for example move ALL golden weapons to sacrifice shops. They are too good to lie just around in the game ( I found them very often on the first floor).
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery May 19, 2016, 12:26:55 AM
Feel free to suggest whatever you want.

I'd like to see pretty much all categories of items appear in the shop.  Originally this didn't seem like a good idea for.... some reason that I don't remember.  But I do think it'd help.  Just have to make sure that whatever goes in there is worth the cost.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 19, 2016, 01:35:34 AM
I would say "yes."

Paying health (rather than credits) for a decent weapon would be an interesting choice.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheVampire100 May 19, 2016, 01:37:57 AM
Then I want to suggest the "Glass Cannon". It's an energy weapon that costs 100 energy to fire (basically the entire energy tank for most mechs) but does damage similiar to the nuke. The idea behind this is, you have a god-tier weapon but you can fire it only once per room.

I also thought of something like the nanite leeches as energy weapon. Costs 50 energy per shot, maybe more.

And as last, full shield. I think this might be too strong and probably is a bad idea but the idea is it works like the guardian shield but with a full circle (or almost full circle). It drains more energy per second, so you cannot block an entire boss fight but it could help to protect in rooms full of enemies where you cannot track all the different shots that come at you.

I don't have any clue about the health costs actually, so fell fre to decide yourself (if any of those ideas are even acceptable).
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge May 19, 2016, 09:27:45 AM
Then I want to suggest the "Glass Cannon". It's an energy weapon that costs 100 energy to fire (basically the entire energy tank for most mechs) but does damage similiar to the nuke. The idea behind this is, you have a god-tier weapon but you can fire it only once per room.
Balancing it around "one-shot per room" is pretty risky though when you got the Blue mech running around with easily over 300 energy.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr May 19, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
Wait, what?  7 or 8 health at the END?   ....surely you don't mean max health?

I... what?  How.... how is that happening?  I took TWO sacrifice room items on my last run with the damn flame mech of all things, and I still had like 28 max HP at the end.  That was at Terminus: I probably had, ah, 22 at the Warden.  This all being on Hard mode.

What is your playstyle?  I'm wondering where this HP is either going, or NOT coming from.
Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 19, 2016, 04:15:49 PM
Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.

Health Upgrade rooms are kind of a tossup, but dropping a few max-missiles for +4 hp is pretty good.  One of the others is +4 hp at the expense of 1 shield (little less valuable unless you've got a good line on regaining that shield point, which is possible, and there's a max 2 shields, so if you're at 2 already it can be worth it).
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Atlar May 20, 2016, 06:33:05 PM
Wait, what?  7 or 8 health at the END?   ....surely you don't mean max health?

I... what?  How.... how is that happening?  I took TWO sacrifice room items on my last run with the damn flame mech of all things, and I still had like 28 max HP at the end.  That was at Terminus: I probably had, ah, 22 at the Warden.  This all being on Hard mode.

What is your playstyle?  I'm wondering where this HP is either going, or NOT coming from.
Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.

Funny how play styles differ... I go with the rougelike approach "survival first", so I will pick up health upgrades whenever I can. Usually I'm looking at 25-35HP vs Warden and 40-50HP vs Terminus :)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr May 20, 2016, 09:10:14 PM
For me damage and possibly utility trumps raw health. I kinda live by "that which is dead can't hurt me", so killing stuff faster is better than living longer.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery May 20, 2016, 10:06:01 PM
I could always make the HP seem a bit more necessary, if you want....   
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr May 21, 2016, 06:55:34 PM
I could always make the HP seem a bit more necessary, if you want....
I either win, or I die. Nothing you do will change that. Maybe I'll just die faster :P
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 26, 2016, 10:18:19 AM
Thanks for all the ideas so far, guys. Here are the ones I'm thinking are the prime contenders so far:

Coupon Cutter -- decreases shop prices.
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.
Evasion booster -- Gives you a big boost to chance to not take damage.
More resource drops -- Sacrifice some health for more resource drops (maybe possible in engine).
Chance to not use ammo -- Gives a chance to not use ammo (not sure if possible in engine currently)

What do we think of these ones?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge May 26, 2016, 10:45:12 AM
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.
This one I would add a limitation to. Like "Gives you 1 health per new room."
Just to avoid some silly dance in the doorframe.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 26, 2016, 12:05:17 PM
Oh, definitely.  Just like the module that hurts you until you leave the floor.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 26, 2016, 12:07:06 PM
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.
This one I would add a limitation to. Like "Gives you 1 health per new room."
Just to avoid some silly dance in the doorframe.

Good reminder, yeah. Thanks!
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo May 28, 2016, 09:24:56 PM
A couple more ideas.

x4 missile damage -- just a simplified version of an idea from this thread.
skeleton key -- basically you won't ever need keys.

How about these? This brings us to about 7 solid-ish ideas so far (maybe). Presumably we need to get to 21 sacrifice items overall so that the player never gets an empty sacrifice room during a run. Any ideas I've missed the potential of? Or just more cool ideas?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 28, 2016, 10:34:05 PM
Skeleton Key would either need to be cheap, early, or both.
Past floor 2 I always have more keys than I know what to do with.
(I don't open most of the locked chests though, I end up disappointed more often than not)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr May 30, 2016, 04:25:58 AM
Skeleton Key would either need to be cheap, early, or both.
Past floor 2 I always have more keys than I know what to do with.
(I don't open most of the locked chests though, I end up disappointed more often than not)
That's more a problem with pickups not being worth it most of the time, than keys being too many.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery May 30, 2016, 04:28:54 AM
Now here's a question:  What might we do to make locked chests more interesting?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pumpkin May 30, 2016, 08:40:28 AM
Now here's a question:  What might we do to make locked chests more interesting?
What about adding some tiny upgrades to the pool? Like +5% (base) damages / energy storage or life shards... Little upgrades that can make a difference in the long run if you invested in keys (like keyprentice/keymaster, green envy, etc). It would "suck" extra keys (and it would be advised to keep at least some for unlocking shops and more important rooms) and it would reward the "key" way.

Also, make locked chests spawn more (maybe x2 the actual amount): a regular playthrough (not "key" heavy) wouldn't have enough keys to unlock them all. Only the ones with many keys would have the long-run benefit of all the little bonuses (damage, energy, life).

What about a +5% (base) speed to add in the pool of small perma-upgrades?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s May 30, 2016, 10:20:45 AM
Yeah.  The only reason I'm going to spend a limited resource is for the ability to receive a permanent upgrade.  That's why I don't ever spend a key to open the door to a consumable shop, but will for the cheap item shop.

Weapon shop I probably should, due to the recent changes.  Previously I found that my starting weapon was almost always better.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pumpkin May 30, 2016, 01:50:18 PM
Weapon shop I probably should, due to the recent changes.  Previously I found that my starting weapon was almost always better.
There is some damage-related upgrades in the weapon shops. Even when I have a good weapon, I seriously consider unlocking one (provided I have some spare money).

But yeah, permanent upgrades, even small, are seen as investments instead of mere trades.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery May 30, 2016, 07:34:05 PM
Yeah, weapon shop is usually worth entering.  Same with the defensive shop.  When I'm doing a run those are the two biggest priorities for spending keys on, when I can. 
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 02, 2016, 10:02:50 PM
Any more ideas guys? We're looking at starting implementing the new sacrifice items in a week or two. A few more cool ideas would be useful, in case we lose a few of the ones we have to the implementation process.

A few new ideas discussed.

Crit damage boost
Crit chance boost
Specialist -- big damage and fire rate boost for secondary, but you can never get rid of the weapon.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr June 03, 2016, 11:38:13 AM
I wouldn't recommend a crit damage boost. Just keep that at a flat x2. But a crit chance boost (and a pretty large one) can be fun.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 07, 2016, 10:31:45 PM
Maybe some of my scatched perks could be modified for sacrifice items instead.  That said, I do mean modified, since I wasn't really trying to balance them yet.

Efficient MissilesHalves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
Lorentz FactorWhen entering a room for the first time, for 10 seconds, the simulation runs slower, and you are smaller
Go For BrokeIf you finish a room with < 1/4 life and no shields, you gain double coins for that room.  Variant: the less health you have, the more rewards you get.
ScoundrelShops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
Demolitionist All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
Long HaulSmall Max HP gain/level
Renewable EnergySmall Max Energy gain/Level
RecyclingKilling an enemy has a chance of giving health, missiles, a key, or XP. (This is obviously similar to the green mech's ability.  In the perks, it was only available to him when you level up.)
FortunateEach minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
Turret MasterTurret bullets hurt both players and enemies.  Several variants on this: the bullets don't always damage enemies, or only some of the turrets are replaced
PhotoelectricWhen you take damage, gain some energy
PizoelectricWhen you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
He CheatsWhen you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
Improved OpticsEnemies are bigger.  Their shot size does not change
Lagrangian OptimizationBots orbit at a larger radius.  Attacking bots attack from a longer range
InertiaGreatly increased damage at short range, decreased damage at long range (or just shorten range)(Maybe just slow the bullets as they go?)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 08, 2016, 12:47:56 AM
Hmm, my honest thoughts on all of these:

Efficient Missiles:  I can only see this one as being a detriment; they'd be a whole lot less effective at bullet clearing (you don't have time to fire more than one usually when doing this), but also they'd have much more trouble drilling through bombable blocks.

Lorentz:  Hmm, this idea could be interesting.  Considering other time dilation effects this surely cant be that hard to implement and test.

Go for Broke:  I cant really see players taking this one.  From what I've noticed players tend to avoid things that are really risky.

Scoundrel:  Actually this is extremely similar to an Incredibility idea that I'd had but that there wasn't time to implement.  There's certainly ways to make this one work but balancing would be tough.

Demolitionist:  Yeah, this one would be useful.

Long Haul:  Probably this would take too long to essentially "pay for itself", which is a typical problem with items of this type.

Renewable Energy:  Hmm, hard to balance that one.  But it's doable, I think.

Recycling: Definitely viable.

Fortunate: Hmm, hard to say if this would be worth it.  Considering there's already abilities that quite increase money gain, and another that doubles the value of health pickups, and considering also that missiles are frequent and easy to find, I cant see this one being particularly worth picking up.  But it's hard to say.

Turret Master:  Hmm... that one's interesting.  It'd be dependant on damage though, and that'd be very difficult to get right, particularly considering that enemies get more and more tanky over the course of the game.

Photoelectric:  I like this one.  This would be great for energy-focused builds (which can be really darn strong).  Let's do this, I say.

Pizoelectric:  Hm, not as sure about this one.  There's a lot of enemies that don't move very fast.

He Cheats:  Huh.  That's an interesting idea.  I like that one too.

Improved Octics: This sounds like hitbox issues and enemies-getting-stuck-in-walls just waiting to happen.  For some enemies this also might actually make them more dangerous.

Lagrangian Optimization:  Hmmm, I kinda like this one too.  The player could essentially extend their effective range this way, which is useful.

Inertia:  This sounds good too, but would only be implemented without any range-shortening effects.  It sounds like a good risk/reward idea for aggressive players without sacrificing the ability to at least do some damage at full range.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 08, 2016, 02:31:12 AM
Efficient Missiles:  I think you're underestimating it a bit (I tried this one).  For Green Envy, it puts the size back to normal, while effectively doubling your quantity.  But the real star was indigo:  Being able to use your rocket launcher more times for its side effect was amazing: it's still a scarce resource, but the player is more free to use it. It's less optimal for the everyone else.  If they're paying health for it, maybe you can scale down or remove the detrimental part of the effect.

Go for Broke: I would never take it: that's why it's on this list, in fact.  I was trying to come up with a way to make the player play a bit riskier for a reward.  Again, just make bad decisions.  It's a failure, I just didn't know if there was part of the idea was usuable.

Long Haul: This probably works better moved back as a perk for the White Gloss (where it originally was).  The perk tree for WG at 5 is just full.

Fortunate: It pretty much gives a lesser version of all of them.  I don't really think it's worth it as a sac item.

Improved Optics: Yep, glad I never tried to implement it, since that's exactly what the problem would be. 

Inertia: Not changing the length is the preferred way, actually.

Pizoelectric: Slowing includes both movement and fire rate.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 08, 2016, 08:54:42 AM
Some fantastic ideas there, thanks.

Scoundrel looks like it could be an interesting incredibility.

For sac items, I'm not 100% on implementation feasibility, but these look good to me:

Demolitionist -- can't really argue with this one, a solid boost.
Photoelectric -- A nice buff.
He Cheats -- This would be useful, yeah.

Intertia also seems good, but I don't think it's currently possible in engine... Probably? Something could also be done with the 1/4 life, no shields general idea. Lorentz is also a possibility.

Current list of potential Sac item:

Coupon Cutter -- decreases shop prices.
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.
Evasion booster -- Gives you a big boost to chance to not take damage.
More resource drops -- Sacrifice some health for more resource drops (maybe possible in engine).
Chance to not use ammo -- Gives a chance to not use ammo (not sure if possible in engine currently)
x4 missile damage -- just a simplified version of an idea from this thread.
skeleton key -- basically you won't ever need keys.
Photoelectric -- when you take damage, gain some energy
He Cheats -- when you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
Demolitionist -- All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased.
Crit Damage Boost -- There was some dislike for this one, though, so this might not make it.
Blood Tendrils Weapon -- I've got this mostly prototyped, so it should make it.

I'd say that if a couple more ideas are added to the list, then we'll look at actually getting these implemented. How are we liking this list, so far, guys?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 08, 2016, 09:51:34 AM
FWIW, I liked the suggestion of Bouncy Balls (weapon ricochet) - I was already considering how to do that.

I like the idea of adding piercing, but I'm pretty sure that adding it to your main weapon is completely broken, since you could just snipe most enemies without getting in any danger.  Maybe you could add it to (just) your energy weapon instead?  Not sure exactly how unbalanced that is, but I suspect it's at least better, due to the limited-ish ammo.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 08, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
I have a horrible time following this sorts of threads because I can never remember the link between names and effects. So I'm going to cheat and paste in the table.

Efficient MissilesHalves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
     Doable in xml. Effect is okayish. Indigo attraction range unaffected by missile damage range.


    Lorentz Factor
    When entering a room for the first time, for 10 seconds, the simulation runs slower, and you are smaller
    My variant of this was that the player was immune to damage, but I think I like yours better.


Go For Broke
If you finish a room with < 1/4 life and no shields, you gain double coins for that room.  Variant: the less health you have, the more rewards you get.
No real way to do logic checks in the xml. Mechanics around the player taking damage are really awkward to work with, especially in the higher levels of difficulty where you can take 6 damage per shot.



    Scoundrel
    Shops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
    The main drops are missiles and credits. The main shop function is to exchange shops for systems/weapons/modules. By removing the shops, you end up with a pile of cash and nothing to spend it on but levels. You also lose 25% of your module access. Adding double drops to bosses would potentially work, but in the end I don't think it adds anything but a bit of random variation.


Demolitionist
 All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
     Not doable in xml. There are very, very few explosions actually. And it would muck up the Invader ;p.


    Long Haul
    Small Max HP gain/level
     Not doable in xml. Would open some options up for an expansion ideas. Having generic health upgrade as options being more frequent in the level up might work out. Hmm...


  Renewable Energy
  Small Max Energy gain/Level
    Same.


  Recycling
  Killing an enemy has a chance of giving health, missiles, a key, or XP. (This is obviously similar to the green mech's ability.  In the perks, it was only available to him when you level up.)

     On my list already, but yeah its a good stable option.


  Fortunate
  Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
    How did you go about doing that?



  Turret Master
  Turret bullets hurt both players and enemies.  Several variants on this: the bullets don't always damage enemies, or only some of the turrets are replaced
    Turrets aren't frequent and useful enough for this to work out. Some turrets already do hurt enemies. Would also need some engine changes to work.


  Photoelectric
  When you take damage, gain some energy
    This goes in line with your previous damage to player based idea. The problem is the same. I've been trying to come up with interesting variants, but the raw damage in the late levels makes it awkward.


  Pizoelectric
  When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
     There are a series of similar items that are okay. However, when I play, I typically only take them only if there is nothing better. I don't want to get hit, and when I do, this typically isn't going to help. ;)


  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.


  Improved Optics
  As a gimmick it works, but if you go too big it causes massive pathfinding issues.


  Lagrangian Optimization
  Bots orbit at a larger radius.  Attacking bots attack from a longer range
    Would require source code changes and may be more trouble that its worth. We are trying to keep the players incentive to hide in a corner low. Giving extra range to things increases the viability of hiding strategies, so caution is suggested.


  Inertia
  Greatly increased damage at short range, decreased damage at long range (or just shorten range)(Maybe just slow the bullets as they go?)
    Tricky. The majority of weapon balance matters for bosses only (because the scrubs die to easily). Short-range encounters with bosses are deadly for the player. If you reduced the damage the player did at range, then this weapon would be a nightmare for boss fights. If you increased it at short-range, but kept it constant at long range it would probably work out better. In the end though, a pure DPS boost would be preferred because it is simpler. Shots can have a lifetime based on time or distance. If we slow shots, shots with time lifetimes would take a massive hit. The Railgun has this mechanic already built into it.



Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.

: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 08, 2016, 03:00:39 PM
Efficient Missiles    Halves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
    Doable in xml. Effect is okayish. Indigo attraction range unaffected by missile damage range.
Exactly.  It doubles the number of times you can use his attraction ability while still leaving it limited.  BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.

    Scoundrel
    Shops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
    The main drops are missiles and credits. The main shop function is to exchange shops for systems/weapons/modules. By removing the shops, you end up with a pile of cash and nothing to spend it on but levels. You also lose 25% of your module access. Adding double drops to bosses would potentially work, but in the end I don't think it adds anything but a bit of random variation.
Frequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots.  In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops.  It's still a trade, though.

Demolitionist
 All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
    Not doable in xml. There are very, very few explosions actually. And it would muck up the Invader ;p.
Would it be possible to just do the player missiles and such?  Not sure if it's worth it.

    Long Haul
    Small Max HP gain/level
    Not doable in xml. Would open some options up for an expansion ideas. Having generic health upgrade as options being more frequent in the level up might work out. Hmm...

The version I'm using for one of White's L5 perks is that enemies have a 2% chance of dropping a health shard.  I think that gives, on average, 1.5 health per floor on normal, with it going up at the end?  Not sure.  My floors are also no longer normal-sized, making balancing anything harder.


  Fortunate
  Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
    How did you go about doing that?
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear.  I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5.  My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards.  Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now.  Laziness won out.


  Pizoelectric
  When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
    There are a series of similar items that are okay. However, when I play, I typically only take them only if there is nothing better. I don't want to get hit, and when I do, this typically isn't going to help.
The only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so.  Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead?  (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).


  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Definitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it.  I don't think I've ever seen it.

Improved Optics
  As a gimmick it works, but if you go too big it causes massive pathfinding issues.
Yeah, when Misery pointed out the hitbox issues, I immediately realized this one is terrible.

Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.
I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item.  Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition.  I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 08, 2016, 04:16:05 PM
BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.
My guess is because it actually is using integers to display, but keeps track of it as a float. There is another modifier that has a chance to consume resource during firing that would provide a similar net effect.

Frequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots.  In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops.  It's still a trade, though.
Hm... Unconvinced. I'd need to think about for a while to provide a better response.

Would it be possible to just do (cut the aoe size in half) the player missiles and such?  Not sure if it's worth it.
I think it is, but I'm not too certain. I'm also not convinced it is worth it.

The version I'm using for one of White's L5 perks is that enemies have a 2% chance of dropping a health shard.  I think that gives, on average, 1.5 health per floor on normal, with it going up at the end?  Not sure.  My floors are also no longer normal-sized, making balancing anything harder.

I have those numbers some where, but I can't find them offhand. The short version is that base game floor sizes do increase by quite a bit from start to finish.

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear.  I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5.  My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards.  Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now.  Laziness won out.
I believe that the ItemPool name are explicitly defined and unchangeable without some source changes. I think that the modifiers that apply level bonuses to item pools, do so for all item pools, so that doesn't work out either. I keep meaning to try to find a way to do individual item in itempool replacements, but haven't found the time.

The only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so.  Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead?  (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).
Time dilation applies to each entity in the game (both ships, players, and shots). It can be set to affect each differently.  In general the category effected is defined by an enum, entityType I think?

  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Definitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it.  I don't think I've ever seen it.
I'll check into it.

Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.
I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item.  Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition.  I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.

It is basically a massive wave of chaos, horribly unbalance for everyone. I liked it. ;)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s June 08, 2016, 04:27:37 PM
Random rememberence from this talk about missiles:

"Your shots bounce off walls" consumable + Missiles = pain in the ass to blow up bombables.

Can we make missiles not bounce off bombables and instead blow up?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 08, 2016, 07:16:36 PM
There is supposed to be a consumable that re-rolls shop contents once, yes.  If it's not activated yet, let's go ahead and do so.  I think it just got lost in the rush of release.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 08, 2016, 11:44:20 PM
I take it back.  Giving everything ricochet is not something I would pay health for.  It might be something I paid health not to ever see again.

Misery: The one thing it didn't make worse?  Blaze Cannons.  Is there a max_annoyance_level defined in the XML somewhere, and they're already at it?

Actually, there were a few other takeaways from 4 runs that might be worthwhile to note.  Would that be better discussed in mods, another thread, or can I just go ahead and share here?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 09, 2016, 12:18:19 AM

Misery: The one thing it didn't make worse?  Blaze Cannons.  Is there a max_annoyance_level defined in the XML somewhere, and they're already at it?

Nah.  Blaze Turrets (blue ones, kinda rare) are a bit higher, hard-mode Blaze Cannons are much higher, and Inferno Cannons, well...  Those aren't in the version of the game you have yet.  They just might set the bar pretty high though.

Actually, there were a few other takeaways from 4 runs that might be worthwhile to note.  Would that be better discussed in mods, another thread, or can I just go ahead and share here?

Hmm, just make a new thread here for them.  It'll be less confusing.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 09, 2016, 12:35:53 AM
I'll do that sometime tomorrow.  I have some more pretty screenshots at 3-4 FPS.  Maybe actually make it to the endgame with it on first.

One thing that's directly related to the topic at hand: I was also wrong about shrinking the missile damage size to try to balance "efficient missiles".  As Draco18s pointed out, reflecting missiles makes them only take out the thing you're directly aiming at, then bouncing around the room a bit until they blow up.  Effectively, that makes it a smaller missile blast... and it's incredibly annoying.  Before, I only had ever had it for a room at a time, which didn't make me realize how bad it was.

: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 09, 2016, 01:03:46 AM
That's hilarious.
More systems need to have life times set.
It also occurs to me that frame rates would die because of the extra collision checking.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 14, 2016, 01:31:15 PM
Some changes to those earlier ideas:

New stuff.  Idea dump.  More hoping someone can take something useful from here than suggesting them as-is

May tinker some more tonight.

: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 14, 2016, 05:14:06 PM
Improved Optics -- I'm kind of reluctant to do a significant range booster as it opens a bit of a can of worms in terms of allowing the player to off-screen enemies and such. Misery's thoughts on this one would be good.

Pizoelectric -- Maybe better as a module?

Long Haul -- Hmmm. Not sure about this one.

Scoundrel -- I think that maybe the miniboss drops -- or lack of drops -- just need looking at some time, maybe they should drop stuff.

Regenerating Battery -- Super tricky to get this right without Misery quite rightly going "Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"

Boom Fire Blowy Up Thing -- Worth looking into maybe, but probably a longshot.

Phasing Missiles -- Pretty good idea yeah. Maybe would work as a new mech missile weapon. Ghost mech anyone?

Secret Pass -- Some kind of pool replacement item might work, aye.


Regarding my initial implementation attempts. So far CouponCutter, HealthRegen, EvasionBooster, X4MissileDamage, SkeletonKey (also removes keycards from seeding), PhotoElectric, CritDamageBoost, and LorentzFactor (less the shrinking effect) have been implemented without too many problems.

More resource drops -- couldn't work out how to do this in a non-hacky manner.
Chance to not use ammo -- couldn't work this out either.
Demolitionist -- also surprisingly couldn't get this to work.
Recycling -- Looking at it, this kind of seems like a different way to do More Resource Drops, so I left this one.

So: CouponCutter, HealthRegen, EvasionBooster, X4MissileDamage, SkeletonKey, PhotoElectric, and LorentzFactor seem ready. CritDamage is also there, but there was some objection to this one, so I'm not counting it. Add in the Bloody Avenger Weapon, and that makes 8 new items so far. The existing roster of sacrifice items totals 10 (I think!) so if we go with these new ones, we're up to 18 in total. We need at least another 3 to fill every pedestal for a 7 floor run.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 15, 2016, 01:18:19 AM
Let's see.... Regenerating Battery isn't happening, though I'm guessing that this was fairly expected.

The range booster... Chris and I had discussed a similar thing during development, and it was decided that giving that extreme range would be way too much; all patterns in the entire game are balanced around the usual ranges.  This is why this trait is attached to Risky Assassin, which is one of the most dangerous Incredibilities to use because of how powerful it is.   So that one's probably a no.

What is "phasing missiles"?  I'm not spotting an actual description anywhere, I must be missing it...

Scoundrel:  Probably a no.  There's just too many minibosses over the course of a given run for them to be dropping loot.  That's why only the Condemned rooms do that.

Secret Pass:  Huh.  I dunno.  I kinda like the idea... like opening up a secret shop that otherwise doesn't exist... but I cant think of any way to make that shop's item pool have enough meaning to warrant a purchase.  Now, that being said, there IS the fact that the cheap item shop appears on every floor, unlike every other shop...  that might mean something.  If this shop had a decent variety of item types it might be worth it since you'd be guaranteed to find it over and over. 


Retaliation module:  Okay this isn't a new concept, but this module does bother me.  Any suggestions on what might be done to make this one not suck?

Pizoelectric:  Yeah, I can see this working as a module too.





: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 15, 2016, 09:56:32 AM
Let's see.... Regenerating Battery isn't happening, though I'm guessing that this was fairly expected.
Yeah, pretty much.  Didn't know if any part of the idea was salvageable.

The range booster... Chris and I had discussed a similar thing during development, and it was decided that giving that extreme range would be way too much; all patterns in the entire game are balanced around the usual ranges.  This is why this trait is attached to Risky Assassin, which is one of the most dangerous Incredibilities to use because of how powerful it is.   So that one's probably a no.
I'm a little more surprised on that, but I cede your point.  Making the range increase enough to not be unbalanced probably makes it too low for a player to want to spend a lot of health to buy it.

What is "phasing missiles"?  I'm not spotting an actual description anywhere, I must be missing it...
Missile launcher that phases you out [for a few seconds] when you use it.  Basically, trying to make phasing a limited active instead of passive.  The only things I can think of to make that work is to attach it to an energy weapon or a missile launcher.

: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 15, 2016, 11:19:49 AM
Does the Cheap Item Shop always appear? I hadn't known that.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 15, 2016, 05:29:17 PM
Does the Cheap Item Shop always appear? I hadn't known that.

I think so.  Or at least, it's extremely common.  It seems to pretty much always be there in my experience.   Unless the RNG has just been toying with me all this time.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 15, 2016, 05:43:41 PM
I hadn't noticed anything when I went through the floor generation code. I suspect it is just the RNG playing with you.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 01:05:45 PM
Current lineup of new mostly implemented Sacrifice items, with better names (thanks, Ptarth!)

Coupon Cutter
Nanite Hull (health regen)
Grin and Bear It (evasion/avoid damage one)
Explodifier (x4 missile damage)
Skeleton Keycard
Photoelectric (keep that name?)
Lorentz Factor (keep that name?)
Blood Avenger weapon
Scourge Spread weapon (thanks Goldenwolf!)

Thoughts on these names, guys? We're still a little short, also one potential problem, I recently noticed that there is already a health regen type item in the game, Living Hull, which regenerates health but doubles the damage you take. Doubling the damage you take seems like way too much of a negative. Maybe just stop this item seeding and have this new one in the sacrifice room instead?

Also, theoretically would anyone like a bigger bullets Sac item?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s June 16, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
Double damage? Holy hell, I'd never take that.  Not even on Easy.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
Double damage? Holy hell, I'd never take that.  Not even on Easy.

Yeah, I think it's probably best to just stop that one seeding, but add the new version to the sacrifice pool.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr June 16, 2016, 02:31:02 PM
Hmm...I dunno. Double damage could be worth taking if you had two shields and at least 10 health. Regenerating health isn't to be scoffed at. I usually play glass cannon so for me it would be of limited use (as I'd die REALLY FAST), but I still see it as somewhat tantalizing.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 16, 2016, 02:55:15 PM
Lorentz Factor (keep that name?)
Obviously I'm pro this one.  The Lorentz factor is the describes the amount that time dialates, length shortens, and mass increases when an object is moving or under gravitational pull.  My original version had the shrinkage and dilation increase as you went down in floors, since you're in the side of a star (IIRC) and that would include stronger gravity.  Not enough to really have much in the way of relativistic effects, but still a neat idea.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s June 16, 2016, 03:05:22 PM
Hmm...I dunno. Double damage could be worth taking if you had two shields and at least 10 health. Regenerating health isn't to be scoffed at. I usually play glass cannon so for me it would be of limited use (as I'd die REALLY FAST), but I still see it as somewhat tantalizing.

10+2 late-game Normal would be equivalent to 1 hp: bosses on floor 6 do 3 damage normally, IIRC.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 16, 2016, 03:11:21 PM
Actually 4 hits. Each shield blocks 1 shot, regardless of damage. So 2 hits from shields and then 2 hits from double damage strength 3+ shots.

Also, the double damage hull regen is actually potentially useful. Why? Because it could combo with the half damage items, thus giving you double damage without any side effects (x2 * 1/2 = x1 damage).

Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr June 16, 2016, 03:13:37 PM
Actually 4 hits. Each shield blocks 1 shot, regardless of damage. So 2 hits from shields and then 2 hits from double damage strength 3+ shots.
That's what I was thinking. That's plenty for a glass cannon run ^^
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 16, 2016, 03:52:51 PM
Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?
Unless I'm completely reading it wrong, it regenerates 1 per four seconds.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 03:54:03 PM
Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?

Yeah, what TheDauthi says. I'd assumed per room, but it's actually every 4 seconds, which Misery might actually have a problem with as it promotes that run and hide gameplay.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge June 16, 2016, 04:51:38 PM
Yeah, what TheDauthi says. I'd assumed per room, but it's actually every 4 seconds, which Misery might actually have a problem with as it promotes that run and hide gameplay.
Once upon a time, I picked that one up (for the last time) and you can bet I was hiding in my corner after every little encounter. A strong gust of wind can wreck you, so the moment things start to go south it's an automatic "Run away!". That run quickly turned to the exact opposite of fun.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr June 16, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
Uh yeah it would have to be rooms. And like the health loss on room entry, only for new rooms to prevent infinite heals by door juggling.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 05:45:50 PM
Just added the Dead Eye Module, which gives you stackable time dilation on kill (limited duration). We need one more to make a full set of 21 Sac items. What's the consensus on Crit Damage boost (Overcritical name?). It seems fine to me, might have some interesting interactions, but I'm not sure.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 16, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
The critical hit damage booster just seems so generic.

Hyper-Velocity Rounds - Double shot speed. (not fire rate, also increase range due to how shots decay at the end of their lifetime).
Magic Missile Box - Refills missiles back to full each new room.
Binge Diet - Double Max Health, Max Energy, and Max Health Changes (both losses and gains).
Abmoog Parade - Replace all standard enemy pools with 1x1_Pursuers and quadruple spawn rates


There were a couple of others on the list that didn't make it to the final that I'm not sure why were cut (example, enter room everything invincible for X seconds, enter room you are invincible for X seconds, enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds).
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s June 16, 2016, 07:38:16 PM
What if the crit booster also lowered range slightly (10%)?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge June 16, 2016, 07:51:47 PM
There were a couple of others on the list that didn't make it to the final that I'm not sure why were cut (example, enter room everything invincible for X seconds, enter room you are invincible for X seconds, enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds).
Ah ah, that's interesting. How about something like this:

Cease-Fire: After you enter a new room, no one can fire for X seconds. (Similar to the teleporter anti-abuse effect)

Limited to new rooms, to avoid wasting time waiting for it when enemies are already dead.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 07:52:24 PM
Hyper-Velocity Rounds - Double shot speed. (not fire rate, also increase range due to how shots decay at the end of their lifetime).


Double shot speed would make certain shots kind of invisible, the already fast ones. Also, globally modifying shot speeds is a bit wonky due to it not affecting weapons that use bullet patterns. Range suffers with this problem a bit, but at least with range you can work around it a bit by not using </die> tags in the pattern and letting the system behavior take over. Shot speed...though, a bit of a can of worms, I think.

Magic Missile Box

A reasonable idea, although maybe too OP this. 10ish missiles on each room is a lot. If you grab capacity boosts on top, then you could maybe even just kill bosses with missiles alone, although power-wise they are pretty weak. I'm on the fence about this one, I'm thinking too OP, but thoughts guys? One option...refills missiles once each floor instead?

Binge Diet
Seems more Incredibility style item to me, especially with the negative effects.

Abmoog Parade
Again, more Incredibility style. Once we do a Incredibility overhaul, though, we've got plenty of ideas from you I think. I'll have to make a list of those.

There were a couple of others on the list that didn't make it to the final that I'm not sure why were cut (example, enter room everything invincible for X seconds, enter room you are invincible for X seconds, enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds).

Actually, Lorentz Factor is in and implemented. That gives you 10 seconds of time dilation upon room entry. 10 seconds of invincibility might be good, too, though.

As for Critical Damage boost, seems fine to me. It would allow the player to really mess around with crit builds. It might catch the player's eye for certain loadouts as a good thing to grab for synergy with their crit gear/perks.




: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 16, 2016, 08:09:39 PM
Hyper-Velocity Rounds - Double shot speed. (not fire rate, also increase range due to how shots decay at the end of their lifetime).
Like reflection, I kinda want to try that.  I'm not sure how it would work with a lot of weapons.

Magic Missile Box - Refills missiles back to full each new room.
A cleaner version of what I was trying to do with halving missile costs, but I thought that was too powerful without some negative.  I like this, and there are plenty of times I would take it.

Binge Diet - Double Max Health, Max Energy, and Max Health Changes (both losses and gains).
Trying something similar as a perk for white (but not for energy).  I haven't gotten "max losses" to work, but it shows up after sac rooms are empty (which we're trying to fix).

Abmoog Parade - Replace all standard enemy pools with 1x1_Pursuers and quadruple spawn rates
Does this mess with XP progression?  Seems more like an incredibility.

enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds
I think this was in the list earlier.

Edit: Heh, Pepisolo beat me to the punch on most of this.  Only thing I'd like to add on to is that, while I think his magic missile box is strong, I don't know that it affects the overall balance as much as halving their usage.  You could often enter the boss room with full-or-almost-full missiles anyway, if you're willing to backtrack the entire floor, or skip some breakables.  I'd be more worried about how it affects the normal rooms to know that you can use all of them and will always have more.  Can you refill it to 1/2 or even 1/4
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 08:16:16 PM
What if the crit booster also lowered range slightly (10%)?

I dunno, I kind of just like the clean, doubles crit damage, without any other stuff going on.

Cease-Fire: After you enter a new room, no one can fire for X seconds. (Similar to the teleporter anti-abuse effect)

Pretty good, maybe this would be annoying on bosses, though. Useful for scoping out normal rooms, but bosses don't really need scoping out. Might work better if only enemies were affected.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 16, 2016, 08:26:11 PM
Go ahead and add the critical damage boost, it is pedestrian, but still useful.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 16, 2016, 08:32:08 PM
Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?

Yeah, what TheDauthi says. I'd assumed per room, but it's actually every 4 seconds, which Misery might actually have a problem with as it promotes that run and hide gameplay.

Yeah, that one isn't happening.

But if it's room-based, that's not a bad idea.  Gain 1 HP on new room entry, like a reverse version of that item that gives you a new shield if you finish the floor with it's health-drain-per-room effect on, you know.   That sort of thing.  It'd be a useful effect but not so much that you could get careless with it.

However, there already is a sacrifice room item that serves a similar purpose, which is that one that heals 1 HP for every 4 enemies destroyed.  Considering how many enemies there tend to be, this is a fairly strong effect.  Or at least it seems so to me anyway.



Magic Missile Box needs some sort of heavy downside.   Refilling just once each floor wont do it either, it'd be too weak in that case.   Hm.   I like the idea of something that can regen missiles for you over the course of a floor or something, because everyone always wants to have a lot of missiles at any given time, particularly when they get addicted to popping every health-shard block, but I'm not sure what a good way to do this would be.    Or what might be a good downside without breaking it and making it worthless. 


Abmoog Parade sounds like a pretty entertaining thing for an incredibility.   BUT, the chompers need dealing with first (at least I think those are part of the "abmoog" group, I'm not so good with names...).  You know the ones.   I'd been ignoring them for awhile.... and then my run last night happened.   Do you know what happens when that "Pacman" room fills up with them?  That's just one example...  The things aren't broken in the same way that the Anklebiters were, but there does need to be something done there.  I'm just not sure what.  Seen a lot of complaints about them. 
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 08:39:45 PM
How about missiles that refill maybe 1 per room or something. Also regarding the Chompers, I've actually kind of got used to to those lately, although they could probably still do with some tweaks. Their shot disintegration should be instant, I think.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheDauthi June 16, 2016, 08:52:15 PM
Yeah, that one isn't happening.
Living Hull currently exists as a pretty rare item?  I thought that was weird, TBH, since it's definitely not the preferred gameplay style.

However, there already is a sacrifice room item that serves a similar purpose, which is that one that heals 1 HP for every 4 enemies destroyed.  Considering how many enemies there tend to be, this is a fairly strong effect.  Or at least it seems so to me anyway.
I've taken it a few times, but usually, I've thought it was a mistake and would rather have had the max health, unless I was using TheCreator.  Health drops are just frequent enough that I generally don't need it, if I'm willing to backtrack.  I'm not the best person to ask about balance, though.

Magic Missile Box needs some sort of heavy downside.   Refilling just once each floor wont do it either, it'd be too weak in that case.   Hm.   I like the idea of something that can regen missiles for you over the course of a floor or something, because everyone always wants to have a lot of missiles at any given time, particularly when they get addicted to popping every health-shard block, but I'm not sure what a good way to do this would be.    Or what might be a good downside without breaking it and making it worthless. 

I've been trying to work on this one, and I very much want something like this to make it.  Especially if you're allowing a new missile-based build type (the 4x damage) and have an existing one that I don't think gets the full usage it should, since missiles have to be used for more than one thing (indigo).  I'm not a huge fan of 1-per-room.  2-per?

Some sort of nerfed Magic Missile Box is going to be added as a perk for indigo in what I'm playing.  It's distinctly better than halving the usage.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 09:41:55 PM
Might be adding a couple more then, bringing the total count to 23 items.

Phase Factor -- Gives you 10 seconds of invincibility on entering a new room. Maybe needs a better name, though?
Magic Missile Box -- How about a sac item that gives you 2 missiles per room then? Different name needed, though?

I also tried to implement the Cease Fire thing, but I couldn't immediately figure out how to stop the enemies from making their first shot fire. There's probably a solution, but I think we have enough items now to start getting these into the game, proper. Also, not being able to fire on bosses might be annoying.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Logorouge June 16, 2016, 09:43:14 PM
I've been trying to work on this one, and I very much want something like this to make it.  Especially if you're allowing a new missile-based build type (the 4x damage) and have an existing one that I don't think gets the full usage it should, since missiles have to be used for more than one thing (indigo).  I'm not a huge fan of 1-per-room.  2-per?

If it's trackable, another way to do it could be to use a raised minimum for missiles instead. So you would always have at least X missiles when you enter a room. (X=3? 5? idk)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 16, 2016, 10:09:23 PM
Phase Factor -- A Phasing Grace
Magic Missile Box -- +2:3 missiles per room is fine with me. The name is fine.
Cease Fire - We'd need to add a entering room shot delay to everything. To be honest, we need to anyway. Normally enemies fire at time 0 and then reload rate seconds later. Time 0 * anything is still time 0.
Missile to soft max - Not really possible. We can however use ceiling to make missile storage max out at X.

I still think the Abmoog Chompers are fine.

The Abmoog Parade was just a funny name, it would have to choose an ship spawning category (although the Abmoogs are generally in the same category, hence the name).
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 16, 2016, 11:09:14 PM
I still think the Abmoog Chompers are fine.

I've gotten used to them a lot more lately. Shot disintegration should be faster, though. At the moment once one set of teeth disappears there is still the potential for some slowly disintegrating shots to be left behind causing some overlap. Also, maybe slow the teeth down a little so that you have a bit more time to run through them. I wouldn't make any drastic changes, though. Also, lol on A Phasing Grace. :D


: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo June 17, 2016, 10:04:36 AM
Final list of items with proper names:

Coupon Cutter (shop discount)
Nanite Hull (health regen)
Grin and Bear It (avoid damage chance)
Explodifier (x4 missile damage)
Skeleton Keycard (unlimited keys)
Photoelectric (40 energy gained when you take damage)
Lorentz Factor (10 second dilation on room entry)
Blood Avenger weapon (gets more powerful on low life)
Scourge Spread weapon (Thoraxian technology)
Overcritical (x2 crit damage boost)
Dead Eye Module (stackable time dilation on kill)
A Phasing Grace (10 second invulnerability on room entry)
Magic Missile Box (2 missiles per new room)

That's 13 new ones to add to the existing 10. We've more than doubled the count. Only thing left to do is to sort out the icons, do a bit of testing, and make some final adjustments. Thanks to everybody who contributed ideas and joined the discussion. We're taking the game to a new level! :)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Draco18s June 17, 2016, 01:55:44 PM
I've gotten used to them a lot more lately. Shot disintegration should be faster, though. At the moment once one set of teeth disappears there is still the potential for some slowly disintegrating shots to be left behind causing some overlap. Also, maybe slow the teeth down a little so that you have a bit more time to run through them. I wouldn't make any drastic changes, though. Also, lol on A Phasing Grace. :D

I agree with this.  I've occasionally had two sets of chomper teeth overlap (from what appeared to be a single chomper!) where there wasn't a safe location TO stand.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 17, 2016, 06:47:44 PM
Just to add to the chomper bit, I finally got a screenshot of the sort of situation I meant here:

(http://i.imgur.com/jD1YpUq.jpg)
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheVampire100 June 17, 2016, 07:38:53 PM
Just to add to the chomper bit, I finally got a screenshot of the sort of situation I meant here:

(http://i.imgur.com/jD1YpUq.jpg)
*chomp*
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: ptarth June 17, 2016, 07:54:57 PM
The Why This Happens
SmallEW/PT_Pacman.txt uses LocalGuard_1x1 ships. The current list (abbreviated) of local guards are: Fleas, Sheeple, LumiFlares, and Abmoogs. If you have removed or floor limited enemies from this list, you are going to see more of the AbmoogChompers. In the image we see 5 chompers out of 11 local guards. That's a little higher than average, but nothing outrageous.

Perhaps make the Chompers require LOS, Sleep til in LOS, or 1 second of entry required before activating.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Misery June 17, 2016, 08:46:11 PM
Hmm, I might also add a couple more local guard types then, if the list is like that.  Hadnt realized it was that small....
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Mánagarmr June 18, 2016, 06:35:41 AM
Geez, I've never had that situation happen. But I can see how that's a big problem from a gameplay perspective.
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: TheVampire100 August 08, 2016, 10:20:18 AM
I know the patch is already online but would it be possible for a "Tome of knowledge" item that multiplies the xp points you get?
: Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
: Pepisolo August 08, 2016, 10:42:18 AM
I know the patch is already online but would it be possible for a "Tome of knowledge" item that multiplies the xp points you get?

Sounds like a pretty good idea. The problem is getting the new icon art. Art budget for the game is very limited, but maybe this could happen in the future. Possibly during the time of the paid expansion.....or this could be an expansion item maybe. Not sure. Good idea, I think, though, we'll keep it in mind.