Ok, the game needs a few more Sacrifice Room Items, so we thought we'd open this up to the community. What would you like to see? Got any interesting ideas for a Sacrifice Item? To start the ball rolling, here's a list of ideas from Ptarth:
Double the Pleasure: Enemy and Friendly shot damage doubled.
Half the Fun: Enemy and Friendly shot damage halved.
Fragile Life: Enemy and Friendly max health halved.
Conservation of Mass: +10 max health, health items no longer spawn (i.e., you only heal from perks and modules)
Bouncy Balls - All shots (friendly and enemy) riccochet
Reverse Course - All shots (friendly and enemy) reflect
Missile Identity - You lose your Energy Weapon (and can never get it back). Your missiles refill to max every room.
Missiling the Point- Max missile capacity is permanently 1, double your energy maximum.
Sticky Plasma - Your shots now intercept enemy shots (catch and hold them for X seconds), but they also do friendly fire damage.
Adrenalin - You do double damage, but you also lose 1 health every 10 seconds.
Coupon Cutter - Shop items are half price.
Do any of these stand out? Let's get brainstorming!
Double the Pleasure: Enemy and Friendly shot damage doubled.NO!
Half the Fun: Enemy and Friendly shot damage halved.
Fragile Life: Enemy and Friendly max health halved.
The list was originally a mix of sacrifice shop items and incredibilities with the theme of making the game different. At some point the incredibility note was dropped from the description.
Most of those sound neutral if not outright negative. If I remember right sacrifice items right now was not working as Crowns in Nuclear Throne, rather Devil deals in Isaac, am I wrong?
Another idea for the list that I hope is more benign for the rest of the balance: "Each missile fired consume 2 missiles but missile damages x4" (I heard missiles are not meant to deal damage. Now they are!)
What are everyone's thoughts on:
Coupon Cutter; Shop items are half price. This seems like a simple -- although potentially OP -- very sacrifice room style item. I'm not actually sure if this is possible in the code immediately, but if not it seems fairly straightforward to implement (for Keith!).
Conservation of Mass; +10 max health, health items no longer spawn. Making it so that health items no longer spawn is interesting. Possibly more of an incredibility style item, though. How about, health no longer spawns but you regenerate 1 per room.
Losing health every 10 seconds isn't worth ANY upgrade especially not since you have to sacrifice health to get it in the first place. That's definitely one I would pass up on every time.
Also people seem to have a lot more health than me. A normal run for me will see me have maybe 7 or 8 health by the end. There's not a lot of room to give away 3 to 5 health with that, much less giving yourself about a minute of life by saccing 1 health every 10 seconds. I'd basically die on the first boss as you most likely won't beat it in less than 70 seconds and there's no health in boss rooms most of the time. Even then, a single health pickup is another 10 seconds, providing you're not getting hit.
Then I want to suggest the "Glass Cannon". It's an energy weapon that costs 100 energy to fire (basically the entire energy tank for most mechs) but does damage similiar to the nuke. The idea behind this is, you have a god-tier weapon but you can fire it only once per room.Balancing it around "one-shot per room" is pretty risky though when you got the Blue mech running around with easily over 300 energy.
Wait, what? 7 or 8 health at the END? ....surely you don't mean max health?Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.
I... what? How.... how is that happening? I took TWO sacrifice room items on my last run with the damn flame mech of all things, and I still had like 28 max HP at the end. That was at Terminus: I probably had, ah, 22 at the Warden. This all being on Hard mode.
What is your playstyle? I'm wondering where this HP is either going, or NOT coming from.
Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.
Wait, what? 7 or 8 health at the END? ....surely you don't mean max health?Never picking health upgrades when I level up, rarely coming across health rooms and only going for shards kinda leaves you sub 10 by the end game. Or at least it DID before the balance patch. I haven't played since then because broken save, education and Stellaris. But yeah, I think my highest HP level ever when killing Terminus was 12. I just don't see health as useful in a game about NOT GETTING HIT.
I... what? How.... how is that happening? I took TWO sacrifice room items on my last run with the damn flame mech of all things, and I still had like 28 max HP at the end. That was at Terminus: I probably had, ah, 22 at the Warden. This all being on Hard mode.
What is your playstyle? I'm wondering where this HP is either going, or NOT coming from.
I could always make the HP seem a bit more necessary, if you want....I either win, or I die. Nothing you do will change that. Maybe I'll just die faster :P
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.This one I would add a limitation to. Like "Gives you 1 health per new room."
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.This one I would add a limitation to. Like "Gives you 1 health per new room."
Just to avoid some silly dance in the doorframe.
Skeleton Key would either need to be cheap, early, or both.That's more a problem with pickups not being worth it most of the time, than keys being too many.
Past floor 2 I always have more keys than I know what to do with.
(I don't open most of the locked chests though, I end up disappointed more often than not)
Now here's a question: What might we do to make locked chests more interesting?What about adding some tiny upgrades to the pool? Like +5% (base) damages / energy storage or life shards... Little upgrades that can make a difference in the long run if you invested in keys (like keyprentice/keymaster, green envy, etc). It would "suck" extra keys (and it would be advised to keep at least some for unlocking shops and more important rooms) and it would reward the "key" way.
Weapon shop I probably should, due to the recent changes. Previously I found that my starting weapon was almost always better.There is some damage-related upgrades in the weapon shops. Even when I have a good weapon, I seriously consider unlocking one (provided I have some spare money).
| Efficient Missiles | Halves missile usage. Missiles have a smaller blast radius |
| Lorentz Factor | When entering a room for the first time, for 10 seconds, the simulation runs slower, and you are smaller |
| Go For Broke | If you finish a room with < 1/4 life and no shields, you gain double coins for that room. Variant: the less health you have, the more rewards you get. |
| Scoundrel | Shops no longer sell items. Greatly increase drop rate. |
| Demolitionist | All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher) |
| Long Haul | Small Max HP gain/level |
| Renewable Energy | Small Max Energy gain/Level |
| Recycling | Killing an enemy has a chance of giving health, missiles, a key, or XP. (This is obviously similar to the green mech's ability. In the perks, it was only available to him when you level up.) |
| Fortunate | Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3. I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5. Too bad there's no "double health") |
| Turret Master | Turret bullets hurt both players and enemies. Several variants on this: the bullets don't always damage enemies, or only some of the turrets are replaced |
| Photoelectric | When you take damage, gain some energy |
| Pizoelectric | When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies |
| He Cheats | When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled. Preferably only once |
| Improved Optics | Enemies are bigger. Their shot size does not change |
| Lagrangian Optimization | Bots orbit at a larger radius. Attacking bots attack from a longer range |
| Inertia | Greatly increased damage at short range, decreased damage at long range (or just shorten range)(Maybe just slow the bullets as they go?) |
| Efficient Missiles | Halves missile usage. Missiles have a smaller blast radius |
Efficient Missiles Halves missile usage. Missiles have a smaller blast radiusExactly. It doubles the number of times you can use his attraction ability while still leaving it limited. BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.
Doable in xml. Effect is okayish. Indigo attraction range unaffected by missile damage range.
ScoundrelFrequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots. In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops. It's still a trade, though.
Shops no longer sell items. Greatly increase drop rate.
The main drops are missiles and credits. The main shop function is to exchange shops for systems/weapons/modules. By removing the shops, you end up with a pile of cash and nothing to spend it on but levels. You also lose 25% of your module access. Adding double drops to bosses would potentially work, but in the end I don't think it adds anything but a bit of random variation.
DemolitionistWould it be possible to just do the player missiles and such? Not sure if it's worth it.
All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
Not doable in xml. There are very, very few explosions actually. And it would muck up the Invader ;p.
Long Haul
Small Max HP gain/level
Not doable in xml. Would open some options up for an expansion ideas. Having generic health upgrade as options being more frequent in the level up might work out. Hmm...
FortunateSorry, I should have made myself more clear. I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5. My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards. Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now. Laziness won out.
Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3. I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5. Too bad there's no "double health")
How did you go about doing that?
PizoelectricThe only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so. Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead? (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).
When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
There are a series of similar items that are okay. However, when I play, I typically only take them only if there is nothing better. I don't want to get hit, and when I do, this typically isn't going to help.
He CheatsDefinitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it. I don't think I've ever seen it.
When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled. Preferably only once
Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Improved OpticsYeah, when Misery pointed out the hitbox issues, I immediately realized this one is terrible.
As a gimmick it works, but if you go too big it causes massive pathfinding issues.
Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item. Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition. I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.
BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.My guess is because it actually is using integers to display, but keeps track of it as a float. There is another modifier that has a chance to consume resource during firing that would provide a similar net effect.
Frequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots. In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops. It's still a trade, though.Hm... Unconvinced. I'd need to think about for a while to provide a better response.
Would it be possible to just do (cut the aoe size in half) the player missiles and such? Not sure if it's worth it.I think it is, but I'm not too certain. I'm also not convinced it is worth it.
The version I'm using for one of White's L5 perks is that enemies have a 2% chance of dropping a health shard. I think that gives, on average, 1.5 health per floor on normal, with it going up at the end? Not sure. My floors are also no longer normal-sized, making balancing anything harder.
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5. My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards. Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now. Laziness won out.I believe that the ItemPool name are explicitly defined and unchangeable without some source changes. I think that the modifiers that apply level bonuses to item pools, do so for all item pools, so that doesn't work out either. I keep meaning to try to find a way to do individual item in itempool replacements, but haven't found the time.
The only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so. Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead? (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).Time dilation applies to each entity in the game (both ships, players, and shots). It can be set to affect each differently. In general the category effected is defined by an enum, entityType I think?
I'll check into it.He CheatsDefinitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it. I don't think I've ever seen it.
When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled. Preferably only once
Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item. Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition. I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.
Misery: The one thing it didn't make worse? Blaze Cannons. Is there a max_annoyance_level defined in the XML somewhere, and they're already at it?
Actually, there were a few other takeaways from 4 runs that might be worthwhile to note. Would that be better discussed in mods, another thread, or can I just go ahead and share here?
Let's see.... Regenerating Battery isn't happening, though I'm guessing that this was fairly expected.Yeah, pretty much. Didn't know if any part of the idea was salvageable.
The range booster... Chris and I had discussed a similar thing during development, and it was decided that giving that extreme range would be way too much; all patterns in the entire game are balanced around the usual ranges. This is why this trait is attached to Risky Assassin, which is one of the most dangerous Incredibilities to use because of how powerful it is. So that one's probably a no.I'm a little more surprised on that, but I cede your point. Making the range increase enough to not be unbalanced probably makes it too low for a player to want to spend a lot of health to buy it.
What is "phasing missiles"? I'm not spotting an actual description anywhere, I must be missing it...Missile launcher that phases you out [for a few seconds] when you use it. Basically, trying to make phasing a limited active instead of passive. The only things I can think of to make that work is to attach it to an energy weapon or a missile launcher.
Does the Cheap Item Shop always appear? I hadn't known that.
Double damage? Holy hell, I'd never take that. Not even on Easy.
Lorentz Factor (keep that name?)Obviously I'm pro this one. The Lorentz factor is the describes the amount that time dialates, length shortens, and mass increases when an object is moving or under gravitational pull. My original version had the shrinkage and dilation increase as you went down in floors, since you're in the side of a star (IIRC) and that would include stronger gravity. Not enough to really have much in the way of relativistic effects, but still a neat idea.
Hmm...I dunno. Double damage could be worth taking if you had two shields and at least 10 health. Regenerating health isn't to be scoffed at. I usually play glass cannon so for me it would be of limited use (as I'd die REALLY FAST), but I still see it as somewhat tantalizing.
Actually 4 hits. Each shield blocks 1 shot, regardless of damage. So 2 hits from shields and then 2 hits from double damage strength 3+ shots.That's what I was thinking. That's plenty for a glass cannon run ^^
Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?Unless I'm completely reading it wrong, it regenerates 1 per four seconds.
Also on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?
Yeah, what TheDauthi says. I'd assumed per room, but it's actually every 4 seconds, which Misery might actually have a problem with as it promotes that run and hide gameplay.Once upon a time, I picked that one up (for the last time) and you can bet I was hiding in my corner after every little encounter. A strong gust of wind can wreck you, so the moment things start to go south it's an automatic "Run away!". That run quickly turned to the exact opposite of fun.
There were a couple of others on the list that didn't make it to the final that I'm not sure why were cut (example, enter room everything invincible for X seconds, enter room you are invincible for X seconds, enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds).Ah ah, that's interesting. How about something like this:
Hyper-Velocity Rounds - Double shot speed. (not fire rate, also increase range due to how shots decay at the end of their lifetime).
Magic Missile Box
Binge DietSeems more Incredibility style item to me, especially with the negative effects.
Abmoog ParadeAgain, more Incredibility style. Once we do a Incredibility overhaul, though, we've got plenty of ideas from you I think. I'll have to make a list of those.
There were a couple of others on the list that didn't make it to the final that I'm not sure why were cut (example, enter room everything invincible for X seconds, enter room you are invincible for X seconds, enter room you are in time dilation for X seconds).
Hyper-Velocity Rounds - Double shot speed. (not fire rate, also increase range due to how shots decay at the end of their lifetime).Like reflection, I kinda want to try that. I'm not sure how it would work with a lot of weapons.
Magic Missile Box - Refills missiles back to full each new room.A cleaner version of what I was trying to do with halving missile costs, but I thought that was too powerful without some negative. I like this, and there are plenty of times I would take it.
Binge Diet - Double Max Health, Max Energy, and Max Health Changes (both losses and gains).Trying something similar as a perk for white (but not for energy). I haven't gotten "max losses" to work, but it shows up after sac rooms are empty (which we're trying to fix).
Abmoog Parade - Replace all standard enemy pools with 1x1_Pursuers and quadruple spawn ratesDoes this mess with XP progression? Seems more like an incredibility.
enter room you are in time dilation for X secondsI think this was in the list earlier.
What if the crit booster also lowered range slightly (10%)?
Cease-Fire: After you enter a new room, no one can fire for X seconds. (Similar to the teleporter anti-abuse effect)
QuoteAlso on that note, does Living Hull repair per room or per X seconds?
Yeah, what TheDauthi says. I'd assumed per room, but it's actually every 4 seconds, which Misery might actually have a problem with as it promotes that run and hide gameplay.
Yeah, that one isn't happening.Living Hull currently exists as a pretty rare item? I thought that was weird, TBH, since it's definitely not the preferred gameplay style.
However, there already is a sacrifice room item that serves a similar purpose, which is that one that heals 1 HP for every 4 enemies destroyed. Considering how many enemies there tend to be, this is a fairly strong effect. Or at least it seems so to me anyway.I've taken it a few times, but usually, I've thought it was a mistake and would rather have had the max health, unless I was using TheCreator. Health drops are just frequent enough that I generally don't need it, if I'm willing to backtrack. I'm not the best person to ask about balance, though.
Magic Missile Box needs some sort of heavy downside. Refilling just once each floor wont do it either, it'd be too weak in that case. Hm. I like the idea of something that can regen missiles for you over the course of a floor or something, because everyone always wants to have a lot of missiles at any given time, particularly when they get addicted to popping every health-shard block, but I'm not sure what a good way to do this would be. Or what might be a good downside without breaking it and making it worthless.
I've been trying to work on this one, and I very much want something like this to make it. Especially if you're allowing a new missile-based build type (the 4x damage) and have an existing one that I don't think gets the full usage it should, since missiles have to be used for more than one thing (indigo). I'm not a huge fan of 1-per-room. 2-per?
I still think the Abmoog Chompers are fine.
I've gotten used to them a lot more lately. Shot disintegration should be faster, though. At the moment once one set of teeth disappears there is still the potential for some slowly disintegrating shots to be left behind causing some overlap. Also, maybe slow the teeth down a little so that you have a bit more time to run through them. I wouldn't make any drastic changes, though. Also, lol on A Phasing Grace. :D
Just to add to the chomper bit, I finally got a screenshot of the sort of situation I meant here:*chomp*
(http://i.imgur.com/jD1YpUq.jpg)
I know the patch is already online but would it be possible for a "Tome of knowledge" item that multiplies the xp points you get?