Author Topic: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming  (Read 14802 times)

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2016, 04:28:54 am »
Now here's a question:  What might we do to make locked chests more interesting?

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2016, 08:40:28 am »
Now here's a question:  What might we do to make locked chests more interesting?
What about adding some tiny upgrades to the pool? Like +5% (base) damages / energy storage or life shards... Little upgrades that can make a difference in the long run if you invested in keys (like keyprentice/keymaster, green envy, etc). It would "suck" extra keys (and it would be advised to keep at least some for unlocking shops and more important rooms) and it would reward the "key" way.

Also, make locked chests spawn more (maybe x2 the actual amount): a regular playthrough (not "key" heavy) wouldn't have enough keys to unlock them all. Only the ones with many keys would have the long-run benefit of all the little bonuses (damage, energy, life).

What about a +5% (base) speed to add in the pool of small perma-upgrades?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 08:42:50 am by Pumpkin »
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2016, 10:20:45 am »
Yeah.  The only reason I'm going to spend a limited resource is for the ability to receive a permanent upgrade.  That's why I don't ever spend a key to open the door to a consumable shop, but will for the cheap item shop.

Weapon shop I probably should, due to the recent changes.  Previously I found that my starting weapon was almost always better.

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2016, 01:50:18 pm »
Weapon shop I probably should, due to the recent changes.  Previously I found that my starting weapon was almost always better.
There is some damage-related upgrades in the weapon shops. Even when I have a good weapon, I seriously consider unlocking one (provided I have some spare money).

But yeah, permanent upgrades, even small, are seen as investments instead of mere trades.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2016, 07:34:05 pm »
Yeah, weapon shop is usually worth entering.  Same with the defensive shop.  When I'm doing a run those are the two biggest priorities for spending keys on, when I can. 

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2016, 10:02:50 pm »
Any more ideas guys? We're looking at starting implementing the new sacrifice items in a week or two. A few more cool ideas would be useful, in case we lose a few of the ones we have to the implementation process.

A few new ideas discussed.

Crit damage boost
Crit chance boost
Specialist -- big damage and fire rate boost for secondary, but you can never get rid of the weapon.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2016, 11:38:13 am »
I wouldn't recommend a crit damage boost. Just keep that at a flat x2. But a crit chance boost (and a pretty large one) can be fun.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline TheDauthi

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2016, 10:31:45 pm »
Maybe some of my scatched perks could be modified for sacrifice items instead.  That said, I do mean modified, since I wasn't really trying to balance them yet.

Efficient MissilesHalves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
Lorentz FactorWhen entering a room for the first time, for 10 seconds, the simulation runs slower, and you are smaller
Go For BrokeIf you finish a room with < 1/4 life and no shields, you gain double coins for that room.  Variant: the less health you have, the more rewards you get.
ScoundrelShops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
Demolitionist All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
Long HaulSmall Max HP gain/level
Renewable EnergySmall Max Energy gain/Level
RecyclingKilling an enemy has a chance of giving health, missiles, a key, or XP. (This is obviously similar to the green mech's ability.  In the perks, it was only available to him when you level up.)
FortunateEach minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
Turret MasterTurret bullets hurt both players and enemies.  Several variants on this: the bullets don't always damage enemies, or only some of the turrets are replaced
PhotoelectricWhen you take damage, gain some energy
PizoelectricWhen you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
He CheatsWhen you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
Improved OpticsEnemies are bigger.  Their shot size does not change
Lagrangian OptimizationBots orbit at a larger radius.  Attacking bots attack from a longer range
InertiaGreatly increased damage at short range, decreased damage at long range (or just shorten range)(Maybe just slow the bullets as they go?)

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2016, 12:47:56 am »
Hmm, my honest thoughts on all of these:

Efficient Missiles:  I can only see this one as being a detriment; they'd be a whole lot less effective at bullet clearing (you don't have time to fire more than one usually when doing this), but also they'd have much more trouble drilling through bombable blocks.

Lorentz:  Hmm, this idea could be interesting.  Considering other time dilation effects this surely cant be that hard to implement and test.

Go for Broke:  I cant really see players taking this one.  From what I've noticed players tend to avoid things that are really risky.

Scoundrel:  Actually this is extremely similar to an Incredibility idea that I'd had but that there wasn't time to implement.  There's certainly ways to make this one work but balancing would be tough.

Demolitionist:  Yeah, this one would be useful.

Long Haul:  Probably this would take too long to essentially "pay for itself", which is a typical problem with items of this type.

Renewable Energy:  Hmm, hard to balance that one.  But it's doable, I think.

Recycling: Definitely viable.

Fortunate: Hmm, hard to say if this would be worth it.  Considering there's already abilities that quite increase money gain, and another that doubles the value of health pickups, and considering also that missiles are frequent and easy to find, I cant see this one being particularly worth picking up.  But it's hard to say.

Turret Master:  Hmm... that one's interesting.  It'd be dependant on damage though, and that'd be very difficult to get right, particularly considering that enemies get more and more tanky over the course of the game.

Photoelectric:  I like this one.  This would be great for energy-focused builds (which can be really darn strong).  Let's do this, I say.

Pizoelectric:  Hm, not as sure about this one.  There's a lot of enemies that don't move very fast.

He Cheats:  Huh.  That's an interesting idea.  I like that one too.

Improved Octics: This sounds like hitbox issues and enemies-getting-stuck-in-walls just waiting to happen.  For some enemies this also might actually make them more dangerous.

Lagrangian Optimization:  Hmmm, I kinda like this one too.  The player could essentially extend their effective range this way, which is useful.

Inertia:  This sounds good too, but would only be implemented without any range-shortening effects.  It sounds like a good risk/reward idea for aggressive players without sacrificing the ability to at least do some damage at full range.

Offline TheDauthi

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2016, 02:31:12 am »
Efficient Missiles:  I think you're underestimating it a bit (I tried this one).  For Green Envy, it puts the size back to normal, while effectively doubling your quantity.  But the real star was indigo:  Being able to use your rocket launcher more times for its side effect was amazing: it's still a scarce resource, but the player is more free to use it. It's less optimal for the everyone else.  If they're paying health for it, maybe you can scale down or remove the detrimental part of the effect.

Go for Broke: I would never take it: that's why it's on this list, in fact.  I was trying to come up with a way to make the player play a bit riskier for a reward.  Again, just make bad decisions.  It's a failure, I just didn't know if there was part of the idea was usuable.

Long Haul: This probably works better moved back as a perk for the White Gloss (where it originally was).  The perk tree for WG at 5 is just full.

Fortunate: It pretty much gives a lesser version of all of them.  I don't really think it's worth it as a sac item.

Improved Optics: Yep, glad I never tried to implement it, since that's exactly what the problem would be. 

Inertia: Not changing the length is the preferred way, actually.

Pizoelectric: Slowing includes both movement and fire rate.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2016, 08:54:42 am »
Some fantastic ideas there, thanks.

Scoundrel looks like it could be an interesting incredibility.

For sac items, I'm not 100% on implementation feasibility, but these look good to me:

Demolitionist -- can't really argue with this one, a solid boost.
Photoelectric -- A nice buff.
He Cheats -- This would be useful, yeah.

Intertia also seems good, but I don't think it's currently possible in engine... Probably? Something could also be done with the 1/4 life, no shields general idea. Lorentz is also a possibility.

Current list of potential Sac item:

Coupon Cutter -- decreases shop prices.
Health regen -- Gives you 1 health per room.
Evasion booster -- Gives you a big boost to chance to not take damage.
More resource drops -- Sacrifice some health for more resource drops (maybe possible in engine).
Chance to not use ammo -- Gives a chance to not use ammo (not sure if possible in engine currently)
x4 missile damage -- just a simplified version of an idea from this thread.
skeleton key -- basically you won't ever need keys.
Photoelectric -- when you take damage, gain some energy
He Cheats -- when you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
Demolitionist -- All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased.
Crit Damage Boost -- There was some dislike for this one, though, so this might not make it.
Blood Tendrils Weapon -- I've got this mostly prototyped, so it should make it.

I'd say that if a couple more ideas are added to the list, then we'll look at actually getting these implemented. How are we liking this list, so far, guys?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 09:04:01 am by Pepisolo »

Offline TheDauthi

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2016, 09:51:34 am »
FWIW, I liked the suggestion of Bouncy Balls (weapon ricochet) - I was already considering how to do that.

I like the idea of adding piercing, but I'm pretty sure that adding it to your main weapon is completely broken, since you could just snipe most enemies without getting in any danger.  Maybe you could add it to (just) your energy weapon instead?  Not sure exactly how unbalanced that is, but I suspect it's at least better, due to the limited-ish ammo.

Offline ptarth

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,166
  • I'm probably joking.
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2016, 01:20:15 pm »
I have a horrible time following this sorts of threads because I can never remember the link between names and effects. So I'm going to cheat and paste in the table.

Efficient MissilesHalves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
    Doable in xml. Effect is okayish. Indigo attraction range unaffected by missile damage range.


    Lorentz Factor
    When entering a room for the first time, for 10 seconds, the simulation runs slower, and you are smaller
    My variant of this was that the player was immune to damage, but I think I like yours better.


Go For Broke
If you finish a room with < 1/4 life and no shields, you gain double coins for that room.  Variant: the less health you have, the more rewards you get.
No real way to do logic checks in the xml. Mechanics around the player taking damage are really awkward to work with, especially in the higher levels of difficulty where you can take 6 damage per shot.



    Scoundrel
    Shops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
    The main drops are missiles and credits. The main shop function is to exchange shops for systems/weapons/modules. By removing the shops, you end up with a pile of cash and nothing to spend it on but levels. You also lose 25% of your module access. Adding double drops to bosses would potentially work, but in the end I don't think it adds anything but a bit of random variation.


Demolitionist
 All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
    Not doable in xml. There are very, very few explosions actually. And it would muck up the Invader ;p.


    Long Haul
    Small Max HP gain/level
    Not doable in xml. Would open some options up for an expansion ideas. Having generic health upgrade as options being more frequent in the level up might work out. Hmm...


  Renewable Energy
  Small Max Energy gain/Level
    Same.


  Recycling
  Killing an enemy has a chance of giving health, missiles, a key, or XP. (This is obviously similar to the green mech's ability.  In the perks, it was only available to him when you level up.)

    On my list already, but yeah its a good stable option.


  Fortunate
  Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
    How did you go about doing that?



  Turret Master
  Turret bullets hurt both players and enemies.  Several variants on this: the bullets don't always damage enemies, or only some of the turrets are replaced
    Turrets aren't frequent and useful enough for this to work out. Some turrets already do hurt enemies. Would also need some engine changes to work.


  Photoelectric
  When you take damage, gain some energy
    This goes in line with your previous damage to player based idea. The problem is the same. I've been trying to come up with interesting variants, but the raw damage in the late levels makes it awkward.


  Pizoelectric
  When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
    There are a series of similar items that are okay. However, when I play, I typically only take them only if there is nothing better. I don't want to get hit, and when I do, this typically isn't going to help. ;)


  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.


  Improved Optics
  As a gimmick it works, but if you go too big it causes massive pathfinding issues.


  Lagrangian Optimization
  Bots orbit at a larger radius.  Attacking bots attack from a longer range
    Would require source code changes and may be more trouble that its worth. We are trying to keep the players incentive to hide in a corner low. Giving extra range to things increases the viability of hiding strategies, so caution is suggested.


  Inertia
  Greatly increased damage at short range, decreased damage at long range (or just shorten range)(Maybe just slow the bullets as they go?)
    Tricky. The majority of weapon balance matters for bosses only (because the scrubs die to easily). Short-range encounters with bosses are deadly for the player. If you reduced the damage the player did at range, then this weapon would be a nightmare for boss fights. If you increased it at short-range, but kept it constant at long range it would probably work out better. In the end though, a pure DPS boost would be preferred because it is simpler. Shots can have a lifetime based on time or distance. If we slow shots, shots with time lifetimes would take a massive hit. The Railgun has this mechanic already built into it.



Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.

Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline TheDauthi

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2016, 03:00:39 pm »
Efficient Missiles    Halves missile usage.  Missiles have a smaller blast radius
    Doable in xml. Effect is okayish. Indigo attraction range unaffected by missile damage range.
Exactly.  It doubles the number of times you can use his attraction ability while still leaving it limited.  BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.

    Scoundrel
    Shops no longer sell items.  Greatly increase drop rate.
    The main drops are missiles and credits. The main shop function is to exchange shops for systems/weapons/modules. By removing the shops, you end up with a pile of cash and nothing to spend it on but levels. You also lose 25% of your module access. Adding double drops to bosses would potentially work, but in the end I don't think it adds anything but a bit of random variation.
Frequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots.  In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops.  It's still a trade, though.

Demolitionist
 All explosion sizes (negative ones included) are increased. (It's a net positive, like the extended-range missile lancher)
    Not doable in xml. There are very, very few explosions actually. And it would muck up the Invader ;p.
Would it be possible to just do the player missiles and such?  Not sure if it's worth it.

    Long Haul
    Small Max HP gain/level
    Not doable in xml. Would open some options up for an expansion ideas. Having generic health upgrade as options being more frequent in the level up might work out. Hmm...

The version I'm using for one of White's L5 perks is that enemies have a 2% chance of dropping a health shard.  I think that gives, on average, 1.5 health per floor on normal, with it going up at the end?  Not sure.  My floors are also no longer normal-sized, making balancing anything harder.


  Fortunate
  Each minor item has a chance to be one rank higher (single missiles give 2, doubles give 4, single coins go up to 3.  I've modded mine to have rare 5-coins and 3 would go to 5.  Too bad there's no "double health")
    How did you go about doing that?
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear.  I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5.  My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards.  Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now.  Laziness won out.


  Pizoelectric
  When you take damage, emit a shock wave that briefly slows enemies
    There are a series of similar items that are okay. However, when I play, I typically only take them only if there is nothing better. I don't want to get hit, and when I do, this typically isn't going to help.
The only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so.  Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead?  (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).


  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Definitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it.  I don't think I've ever seen it.

Improved Optics
  As a gimmick it works, but if you go too big it causes massive pathfinding issues.
Yeah, when Misery pointed out the hitbox issues, I immediately realized this one is terrible.

Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.
I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item.  Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition.  I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.

Offline ptarth

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,166
  • I'm probably joking.
Re: Sacrifice Item Brainstorming
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2016, 04:16:05 pm »
BTW, using ItemCosts to multiply missiles by .5 doesn't quite work right: it doesn't let you use the last missile.
My guess is because it actually is using integers to display, but keeps track of it as a float. There is another modifier that has a chance to consume resource during firing that would provide a similar net effect.

Quote
Frequently in the midgame, and sometimes in the early game, I already have one of my preferred weapons and bots.  In those runs, I'd happily trade being able to buy stuff for more boss drops.  It's still a trade, though.
Hm... Unconvinced. I'd need to think about for a while to provide a better response.

Quote
Would it be possible to just do (cut the aoe size in half) the player missiles and such?  Not sure if it's worth it.
I think it is, but I'm not too certain. I'm also not convinced it is worth it.

Quote
The version I'm using for one of White's L5 perks is that enemies have a 2% chance of dropping a health shard.  I think that gives, on average, 1.5 health per floor on normal, with it going up at the end?  Not sure.  My floors are also no longer normal-sized, making balancing anything harder.

I have those numbers some where, but I can't find them offhand. The short version is that base game floor sizes do increase by quite a bit from start to finish.

Quote
Sorry, I should have made myself more clear.  I only added the rarer coins, not the one rank higher change - it was a perk I was going to try to do for Green, but found that I already had 3 at level 5.  My thought was to add level1, level2, level3 itempools, add those to the relevant items, then replace item1 pools with item2 pools, etc, like the incredibility does for consumables to health shards.  Then I realized that item pools might well be static, or might only check the one they were generated for.... and then it seemed like it was a lot of work to test an idea I wasn't going to use right now.  Laziness won out.
I believe that the ItemPool name are explicitly defined and unchangeable without some source changes. I think that the modifiers that apply level bonuses to item pools, do so for all item pools, so that doesn't work out either. I keep meaning to try to find a way to do individual item in itempool replacements, but haven't found the time.

Quote
The only reason I suggested this idea is that, in theory, you can use it to get out of a bad situation after having been hit, but it only gives you a brief period to do so.  Maybe briefly slowing down the sim, instead?  (Yes, the sim speed is one of the things I find coolest in the game).
Time dilation applies to each entity in the game (both ships, players, and shots). It can be set to affect each differently.  In general the category effected is defined by an enum, entityType I think?

Quote
  He Cheats
  When you re-enter a shop, the items are rerolled.  Preferably only once
    Control over when/how the shop is rerolled is important. There is/should be a consumable that does this. Although I'm not sure if it is set to spawn.
Definitely better as a consumable, now that I think about it.  I don't think I've ever seen it.
I'll check into it.

Quote
Bouncy Balls - There is a modifier that you can add, reflect or ricochet I believe, its pretty straightforward.
I'm just not sure if it's a good idea for a sac item.  Also, I'm not sure that every weapon would work well with that as a global addition.  I think I'll test that out, because it seems like it would be fun, if nothing else.

It is basically a massive wave of chaos, horribly unbalance for everyone. I liked it. ;)
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk