General Category > Starward Rogue
Please Not Market This As A Roguelike If It Is Not
tombik:
I am hearing rogue legacy like progression and roguelike word at the same time, and it itches my obsession about correct categorization.
If there is metaprogression, it does not fit in the definition of roguelike. And if it has not got grid based play, the only thing that might be common would be random generation, which does not justify selling this as a roguelike.
You guys also deceived me before in Bionic Dues, calling it mecha roguelike or something, while it was balanced for a save reload play. (I am not blaming anyone btw, I should have done my prepurchase research better). I know it has ironman option but game has so many implicit imbalances that you actually chose to make that mod as extra, not the main way to play.
Please do not call this a roguelike, if it is not. Call it roguelite. Roguelikelike. Or something.
PS: If you are more interested about why I am that freaked out with the word roguelike, there is more here:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/zulmetefza/recommended/241600/
Aklyon:
--- Quote from: satoru on October 08, 2015, 06:04:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: dfinlay on October 08, 2015, 04:17:32 pm ---No offense meant, Chris, but people need to stop using the term Roguelike when referring to games that don't occupy the same design space as Stone Soup, NetHack, ToME, Angband, etc. It's getting to the point where the term is beginning to lose all meaning as a strong descriptor and that when developers use the term, it says very little to the potential customer about the style/genre of the game. If you mean permadeath with high levels of randomness, say that. That alone isn't really a genre.
--- End quote ---
I realize there are 'rogue purists' out there stomping out the whole "this isn't a rogue or rogue-lite or rogue-like' thing. But lets face it, the term means much broader things than it did before. And if you want to quickly communicate some fundamental ideas, rogue-like is a legitimate one and that while not adhering to the strict sense of the term, is still a useful broad descriptor.
W'ere sorry us 'casuals' have hijacked the term but it is what it is. And youc ant blame people for using it in its new colloquial use, rather than its previous strict purist interpretation
--- End quote ---
Until someone else replies, I'll just leave the quote here from another topic.
Misery:
Ehhhh... Okay, I'm not supposed to reveal too much here, so I cant really say WHY I'll say this, but I do think the "roguelike" term will fit this one, based on... er... stuff. Well, at least by my own opinion anyway, from everything I know of it so far.
I know turn-based roguelikes are, well, the "classical" types, but there are other sorts I do definitely consider to be those.... it very much depends. One of my personal favorites, which is Isaac, I definitely consider to be one. It's not turn-based, but absolutely everything else about it fits, and most people seem to think so as well (including the devs of the game). Or something like Vagante (look it up if you havent seen it, it's very good) I also consider to be one, despite what it's like. And a whole pile of others, as I have lots of these. I mean, seriously, LOTS of these. Both action-y and turn-based classic types.
Now, if I go to something like, say, Spelunky, then no, I dont consider that one to be of this genre. It's definitely got some elements of it, and it's a fantastic game, but I'd really have a hard time giving it that label. Same with Rogue Legacy; I dont see that one as a roguelike whatsoever. It's a constant-progression Metroid-ish game with a randomized map.
I swear, genre labels have become really subjective though in alot of ways these days. I usually dont mind TOO much, but it is a little annoying at times. Of course, alot of games are blending genres nowadays, so that just adds to the confusion.
Also, for what it's worth, I do consider Bionic Dues to be one as well. I know the game doesnt have permadeath, but that's not really an absolute requirement. A common feature, yes, but not a requirement of the genre. Hell, even ToME defaults to having more than one life, and I cant imagine anyone saying THAT game isnt a roguelike. Of Arcen's games though, BD is definitely the full roguelike among the group. But with it's own unique twists.
tombik:
--- Quote from: Aklyon on October 13, 2015, 11:12:57 am ---
--- Quote from: satoru on October 08, 2015, 06:04:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: dfinlay on October 08, 2015, 04:17:32 pm ---No offense meant, Chris, but people need to stop using the term Roguelike when referring to games that don't occupy the same design space as Stone Soup, NetHack, ToME, Angband, etc. It's getting to the point where the term is beginning to lose all meaning as a strong descriptor and that when developers use the term, it says very little to the potential customer about the style/genre of the game. If you mean permadeath with high levels of randomness, say that. That alone isn't really a genre.
--- End quote ---
I realize there are 'rogue purists' out there stomping out the whole "this isn't a rogue or rogue-lite or rogue-like' thing. But lets face it, the term means much broader things than it did before. And if you want to quickly communicate some fundamental ideas, rogue-like is a legitimate one and that while not adhering to the strict sense of the term, is still a useful broad descriptor.
W'ere sorry us 'casuals' have hijacked the term but it is what it is. And youc ant blame people for using it in its new colloquial use, rather than its previous strict purist interpretation
--- End quote ---
Until someone else replies, I'll just leave the quote here from another topic.
--- End quote ---
But that does not say anything about my point. The hijacked version of roguelike term does not include anything about the game itself, leaves much without any specification, so does a bad job as a word.
We use tags, categories and words for talk about things. And as the hijacked roguelike word will just imply randomized, why dont we use randomized instead? Why to cause confusion just for better marketability?
I am not a purist. I am a consumer, who has a small amount of time for my pre purchase researchs. So I really find it useful when all of the categories are well defined, and have a uniform meaning. I don't blame anyone to use the "hijacked version" wrongly.
Except the ones who are selling a game. This may lead confusion, or wrongly informed purchase decisions, and since even developers would be using a wrong term, it will cause that mistake's being even more common.
--- Quote from: Misery on October 13, 2015, 11:27:46 am ---Also, for what it's worth, I do consider Bionic Dues to be one as well. I know the game doesnt have permadeath, but that's not really an absolute requirement. A common feature, yes, but not a requirement of the genre. Hell, even ToME defaults to having more than one life, and I cant imagine anyone saying THAT game isnt a roguelike. Of Arcen's games though, BD is definitely the full roguelike among the group. But with it's own unique twists.
--- End quote ---
TOME is completely balanced for a single life run though. And afaik permadeath is the most definitive feature of roguelikes, even more so than grid basedness.
Misery:
--- Quote from: tombik on October 13, 2015, 11:32:22 am ---
--- Quote from: Aklyon on October 13, 2015, 11:12:57 am ---
--- Quote from: satoru on October 08, 2015, 06:04:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: dfinlay on October 08, 2015, 04:17:32 pm ---No offense meant, Chris, but people need to stop using the term Roguelike when referring to games that don't occupy the same design space as Stone Soup, NetHack, ToME, Angband, etc. It's getting to the point where the term is beginning to lose all meaning as a strong descriptor and that when developers use the term, it says very little to the potential customer about the style/genre of the game. If you mean permadeath with high levels of randomness, say that. That alone isn't really a genre.
--- End quote ---
I realize there are 'rogue purists' out there stomping out the whole "this isn't a rogue or rogue-lite or rogue-like' thing. But lets face it, the term means much broader things than it did before. And if you want to quickly communicate some fundamental ideas, rogue-like is a legitimate one and that while not adhering to the strict sense of the term, is still a useful broad descriptor.
W'ere sorry us 'casuals' have hijacked the term but it is what it is. And youc ant blame people for using it in its new colloquial use, rather than its previous strict purist interpretation
--- End quote ---
Until someone else replies, I'll just leave the quote here from another topic.
--- End quote ---
But that does not say anything about my point. The hijacked version of roguelike term does not include anything about the game itself, leaves much without any specification, so does a bad job as a word.
We use tags, categories and words for talk about things. And as the hijacked roguelike word will just imply randomized, why dont we use randomized instead? Why to cause confusion just for better marketability?
I am not a purist. I am a consumer, who has a small amount of time for my pre research purchases. So I really find it useful when all of the categories are well defined, and have a uniform meaning. I don't blame anyone to use the "hijacked version" wrongly.
Except the ones who are selling a game. This may lead confusion, or wrongly informed purchase decisions, and since even developers would be using a wrong term, it will cause that mistake's being even more solid.
--- End quote ---
Hmm, I actually think it's just because people have gotten used to it. It's kinda baffling to me, but ALOT of gamers these days have no idea where the term "roguelike" even comes from. They know it involves alot of random generation and permadeath, but they've never heard of the original Rogue, or even games like Nethack or anything like that. I know a few people that are like this. If I show them a "real" roguelike, one of the true classic types, they have no freaking clue as to what they're even looking at and may or may not declare it to be stupid.
Yes, this is just as annoying as it sounds.
But yeah, it's become the sort of thing where it can be stuck into the description because people now just automatically associate the term with "randomized generation and possibly permadeath". It's just an easy way to say hey, our game has these couple of specific qualities. That it doesnt actually play like a real roguelike never seems to matter, does it...
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