Author Topic: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming  (Read 2003 times)

Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« on: September 22, 2016, 12:59:52 PM »
OK, so the current perk system could do with a big overhaul. I'm still in the fairly early research and planning phase, but I thought I'd open this up for everyone to pitch in their ideas.

Two of the main changes I'm looking at are:

1) Split damage boosts up more, so instead of just a global damage boost there would be main gun damage, energy weapon damage, missile damage, and maybe also familiar damage. In addition to a general damage boost option.
2) Unique perks for each mech at levels 5 and 10 (or maybe 9). For example, the two I have so far are Jack of All Trades for the White Gloss. This would give a general boost to all stats. Flame Master for the Flame Tank, this would increase its damage with any fire based weapons (as a multiplier).

These are the two main structural changes. One other general idea is that perks would vary in their impact per level. So the 5th and 10th (or 9th) level perks would be bigger and more impactful. 3rd and 7th level perks would be significant, and the perks in between would be the smaller general bonuses such as the current Hull Reinforcements and Missile Packs.


Then, what we need are just more cool ideas for perks that we can implement. Or overhauls of existing perks. For the moment, let's just get some cool ideas out there without thinking too much about whether it's currently able to be implemented in the engine. Some general thoughts:

CompassMaster Overhaul -- Rather than having those CompassMaster perks which kind of duplicate what a few items already do, we could have a couple of levels of sensor perks, which would increase the amount of map that the player can see by 1 connection.

A defense/offense charge perk -- Let's say that when the player is hit, they get a power charge that gives them a short term damage boost and a orbiting visual indicator. Really just a more visual version of stuff like the Berserker Perk. When a certain trigger happens, player gets a short term buff and visual indicator in the form of an orbiting orb.

Fix trap master -- Somehow! Yeah, this would work if it was made so that it nullified all trap damage.

Keyprentice rework -- Keyprentice would be better, I think, if it was something more like Hackprentice. Gain a 25% chance to be able to open locked doors and chests.

Shard efficiency -- Reduce the amount of shards required to gain max health?

Missile Pack tweak -- Make it so you also get ammo as well as a max capacity boost.

Armor Upgrade -- Increases your defenses but makes it harder to heal, reducing heal amount to 1 per pickup.

Extra XP -- Perk that gives you a XP bonus multiplier. So, more of a perk for those who like to full clear.

Auxiliary system -- Provides a one time backup system for the player. Could be something simple like gain invincibility for 15 seconds when you should have died or something more complicated like transforms your mech into a small hover pod on death, allowing you to fight on for a while as pretty much just a floating brain or something (hey, I did say let's just get the ideas out there!).

Specialist perk -- Removes your energy weapon for a big boost to either your main gun or missile launcher. Or a big defensive boost, perhaps.

More Debuff Perks -- Better perks that apply debuffs to your shots. Acidic touch makes enemies take more damage when debuffed. Add chance to freeze, stun, burn, enfeeblement....the usual ARPG type debuffs.

Piercing Chance -- Add piercing chance?

Culling Strike -- Culls enemies at 10 percent health, maybe.

That's it for now. Any feedback and ideas appreciated. Join in!






Offline TheVampire100

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,137
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 05:38:45 PM »
I liek the idea of mech-specialised perks. I somehow missed this fromt he start, they all got basically the same, so except their starting equipment (which you can replace anyway in the game) and the special abilities, they are all the same to the core. But I like varity and big differences, I want the felling that I play soemthign entirely different that needs different tactics.

I don't know if I would like different damage type boosts. On one hand it would emphasize different playstyles. You have a boost on energy weapons, so use these often. On the other hand, I really liked that damage perks boosted everything, so they always were beneficial. If you do the split, you have to put a reasonable buff on the damage boost. I wouldn't pick anything under 20-25%. Because 10% on a single weapon system seems too bad for me to pick. Than I would rather pick something that sustains me more etc.

Here are also soem ideas for specialised mech perks:

Deep Blue: Battery Saver - Has a small chance not to consume energy on shots
                  New friend - adds a second beam drone

Humble: Interest - get immediatly a credit boost

Green Envy: Greed - Smal percent chance to get quadruple credits


Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 06:10:32 PM »
Quote
I liek the idea of mech-specialised perks. I somehow missed this fromt he start, they all got basically the same, so except their starting equipment (which you can replace anyway in the game) and the special abilities, they are all the same to the core. But I like varity and big differences, I want the felling that I play soemthign entirely different that needs different tactics.

Yeah, some more sense of identity throughout the perks should be good.

Quote
I don't know if I would like different damage type boosts. On one hand it would emphasize different playstyles. You have a boost on energy weapons, so use these often. On the other hand, I really liked that damage perks boosted everything, so they always were beneficial. If you do the split, you have to put a reasonable buff on the damage boost. I wouldn't pick anything under 20-25%. Because 10% on a single weapon system seems too bad for me to pick. Than I would rather pick something that sustains me more etc.

My current thinking is to also have a smaller global damage boost available, so you could choose that if you don't want to specialize.

Quote
Deep Blue: Battery Saver - Has a small chance not to consume energy on shots
                  New friend - adds a second beam drone

Yeah, we like the familiar upgrade idea, I think. Either a second beam drone, or an upgraded beam drone. I think an upgraded one might be better, but that would require engine tweaks, I think, since it's not currently possible to remove familiars (or something like that, I forget the exact reason).

Quote
Humble: Interest - get immediatly a credit boost

The Humble Mech already has one special perk actually, which reduces the usage costs of the Contrishooter, although just a straight up cash injection perk seems interesting, for this mech at least.

Quote
Green Envy: Greed - Smal percent chance to get quadruple credits

Yeah, we need something like this, aye. The Green Envy needs a bit of work actually, to differentiate it from the Humble Mech a bit more, if anybody has any ideas on that, too.

Offline Logorouge

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2016, 06:48:49 PM »
Unfortunately, apart from my previous +10% movement speed perk suggestion, I don't have any in mind at the moment.

1) Split damage boosts up more, so instead of just a global damage boost there would be main gun damage, energy weapon damage, missile damage, and maybe also familiar damage. In addition to a general damage boost option.
The problem I see with this is that levelups would still be limited to 3 perks each, so chances would be high that those precious few spots would be "wasted" on damage boosts you don't care about, depending on your build. And boosts that specific would need to be pretty high to be worth taking (probably as high as the current all purpose damage boosts).

Yeah, we need something like this, aye. The Green Envy needs a bit of work actually, to differentiate it from the Humble Mech a bit more, if anybody has any ideas on that, too.

I'll just copy what I wrote on Steam a while ago:

"Since the money aspect is pretty redundant with the Humble mech, why not trash that part entirely? It could become the thief mech instead. No lock would be safe from this mech (frequent keycards or skeleton key?) and to make it a bit more unique, he could use the ability to steal items from shops. Chance-based, if you succeed you get the five fingers discount, if you fail the shopkeeper gets enraged and all items in this one shop become useless thrash (allowing you to kill the shopkeeper for incredibilities).

Something like that would shake things up a bit I think."

On the downside, it would become a very different mech and some people will inevitably miss the old style Green Envy.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2016, 07:19:18 PM »
Quote
The problem I see with this is that levelups would still be limited to 3 perks each, so chances would be high that those precious few spots would be "wasted" on damage boosts you don't care about, depending on your build. And boosts that specific would need to be pretty high to be worth taking (probably as high as the current all purpose damage boosts).

Yeah, I'm not sure at the moment. Only having a global damage boost just seems so boring to me. It doesn't promote build diversity.

Quote
"Since the money aspect is pretty redundant with the Humble mech, why not trash that part entirely? It could become the thief mech instead. No lock would be safe from this mech (frequent keycards or skeleton key?) and to make it a bit more unique, he could use the ability to steal items from shops. Chance-based, if you succeed you get the five fingers discount, if you fail the shopkeeper gets enraged and all items in this one shop become useless thrash (allowing you to kill the shopkeeper for incredibilities).

Something like that would shake things up a bit I think."

On the downside, it would become a very different mech and some people will inevitably miss the old style Green Envy.

Yeah, good idea, but it kind of does become a thief mech then, though. Here are some changes I'm experimenting with. Green Envy comes with innate detection of secret, item, and health upgrade rooms. Also, it comes with the innate ability to find higher tier loot one floor earlier than normal. How about these changes? Also, does anyone really care that much about the 10% chance to get an extra credit and 1% chance to get a keycard boosts? I'm thinking of just removing these.


Edit: Just tested LootFloorIndex and it doesn't seem to work.......or something! In other words, got any ideas how this works, Ptarth?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 07:32:28 PM by Pepisolo »

Offline Logorouge

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2016, 07:49:51 PM »
Yeah, I'm not sure at the moment. Only having a global damage boost just seems so boring to me. It doesn't promote build diversity.
Due to the floor scaling effect on enemies, some steady overall damage increase is almost obligatory though. And levelups are the most reliable thing for that, regardless of the mech and RNG. But I believe if the current damage boost perks were toned down, it would mostly be a matter of making other options as attractive as damage.

Also, it comes with the innate ability to find higher tier loot one floor earlier than normal. How about these changes? Also, does anyone really care that much about the 10% chance to get an extra credit and 1% chance to get a keycard boosts? I'm thinking of just removing these.
Oh oh. I like the better loot ability idea a lot. Fits perfectly the whole "treasure hunter mech" description.
As for the passives, I know Palewing really likes them (Steam forums). I stopped caring about those because of how little their impact tend to be and how unreliable they are due to the very low % chance. Doesn't help that the Humble mech really raised the bar for mech power levels. At least Blue (the mech) isn't so lonely at the top anymore. :P

Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 08:12:46 PM »
Quote
Due to the floor scaling effect on enemies, some steady overall damage increase is almost obligatory though. And levelups are the most reliable thing for that, regardless of the mech and RNG. But I believe if the current damage boost perks were toned down, it would mostly be a matter of making other options as attractive as damage.

If there were 4 perks, main, energy, missile, and global, then there'll probably still be a general damage increase over the course of a few levels (kind of!), but rather than choosing just a global boost each time, you might choose a main and energy boost at different times unless you wanted to specialize. I dunno, seems more interesting to me, although Ptarth isn't a fan, and since this functionality isn't already possible in the engine that makes splitting things up even less likely.

Quote
Oh oh. I like the better loot ability idea a lot. Fits perfectly the whole "treasure hunter mech" description.
As for the passives, I know Palewing really likes them (Steam forums). I stopped caring about those because of how little their impact tend to be and how unreliable they are due to the very low % chance. Doesn't help that the Humble mech really raised the bar for mech power levels. At least Blue (the mech) isn't so lonely at the top anymore. :P

Yeah, the loot thing is theoretically possible in the engine, but I just tested it and it doesn't seem to work. Drat! I could increase the percentages a bit on the Green Envy, or maybe remove the keycard percentage but double the credit percentage. If the Humble Mech is OP, we can tone it down, although I'm not sure whether people are regularly easily winning runs with it, or whether they are being dazzled by the early power of the Contrishooter. I'd like to see Zeph do a few full runs with that mech.

Offline Logorouge

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2016, 08:49:32 PM »
If the Humble Mech is OP, we can tone it down, although I'm not sure whether people are regularly easily winning runs with it, or whether they are being dazzled by the early power of the Contrishooter. I'd like to see Zeph do a few full runs with that mech.
The players I watched always go all out with the Contrishooter early on and screw themselves over for the later floors. So I guess "very powerful but not newbie friendly" would be more accurate. If you wait for at least one of the cost reduction perks, you can use the Contrishooter to melt bosses effortlessly without burning much cash. Plus the thing starts with a free unlimited spreadshot. And a nice shop discount. And extra cash. And a special money-making missile launcher. But still, it might be a bit too early to judge the newest addition to the roster.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 09:01:35 PM »
The players I watched always go all out with the Contrishooter early on and screw themselves over for the later floors. So I guess "very powerful but not newbie friendly" would be more accurate. If you wait for at least one of the cost reduction perks, you can use the Contrishooter to melt bosses effortlessly without burning much cash. Plus the thing starts with a free unlimited spreadshot. And a nice shop discount. And extra cash. And a special money-making missile launcher. But still, it might be a bit too early to judge the newest addition to the roster.

Yeah, the true test of whether it's OP or not wouldn't be seen until in the late game. If people are running through all their credits early, believing their own hype, but later on they come unstuck, then that's fine. If people are easily regularly running through Warden and Terminus (more than other mechs do), though, then that's a problem.

Offline TheVampire100

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,137
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 10:12:47 PM »
I just want to mention, the Humble mech was the first and only that I beat Terminus with. I don't know if this infortmation helps.

Offline Misery

  • Global Moderator
  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,964
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2016, 01:21:52 AM »
I'll just repeat the same thing I've been saying:  The main thing I want out of such an overhaul is for player damage to stop going out of control so easily.  The damage upgrades are just too good.  Right now in my build of the game Terminus has a grand total of 26000 HP, before damage scaling.  That's a whole heck of a lot.  But it doesn't help much... even with a build that's just not very focused on damage (sorta being a bit more all around) it still ends the fight way too fast.  For the final form, which has 7600 HP and is meant to be an attrition phase, the full threat of the pattern didn't even have time to form.  That's a bit silly.  This is with the purple mech, mind you, and I still had it's mines at the end.  So no energy weapon really adding damage. But a high-ish fire rate, some of the big damage perks, and a decent amount of crit still melted it.

And of course the side effect is that the damage perks are so freaking good that they just seem objectively better than everything else (other than the shield one), so nobody takes anything else.


Some damage-up items may also be contributing to this, too, I'm not sure. 


Now, feedback on the other ideas:


Damage splitting:  Best not to.  It ends up meaning that many energy weapons would be overall useless later in the game; players are very likely to end up focusing mostly on basic attacks more than energy attacks.  I definitely think that simply toning down the amount of boosts from the current buffs is the way to go.  The numbers on those are just way too high and you can get a whole bunch of them if you want (but you don't need that many to do it, really).   Energy cap upgrades already serve a boosting purpose for those weapons anyway:  the higher the max is, the more damage per room you can do with any given energy weapon.   It's already very possible to do energy-focused builds; while many players don't seem to do this, it can still be very powerful simply from increasing the max by a whole bunch, depending on your weapons. 


Trap Master:  Just giving immunity to EVERYTHING at once is way too much.  However, if there was one that gave immunity to spikes, and another that gave immunity to lasers, those would both be perks I'd definitely consider taking when they appeared.  They wouldn't totally nullify the non-enemy challenge of rooms, but they'd still be very useful.

Keyprentice:  I like this one.

Shard efficiency:  I like this one too.  It takes quite a bit of shards to get more HP but basically everyone seems to collect them obsessively.  So it's useful in most playstyles.

Missile pack:  That sounds like a good change.

Armor upgrade:  Hmm, not a bad idea, though it'd need some major testing. 

Extra XP:  Don't we already have this?

Auxillary system:  This sounds pretty good.  Though, we do already have an anti-death perk, the one that simply revives you at the start of the level with full HP (without requiring that you be holding a module).  But more creative ideas would be interesting.  Sounds a lot like Lazarus in Isaac. 

Specialist:  This sounds good too, though high bonuses to basic attacks are still going to make things messy.

Debuffs:  Now this one sounds pretty entertaining.  However, the chance of it happening would have to be incredibly small, considering how many shots the player is capable of firing.  Why not have this one be tied to missiles instead?  Guaranteed to work with missiles every time.... the cost of course being that you'll run out if it's overused.  And some enemies are hard to hit with missiles, though of course you can get special launchers to remedy that.

Piercing chance:  Too weak.  Enemies really don't tend to clump up much aside from the new Popcorn types. 

Culling Strike:  This could be pretty good against some things. An anti-Fearsome sort of thing, and those are the enemies that get players panicking more than anything. Bosses & minibosses should have immunity to something like this though.  Actually they should probably have immunity to a number of things.  We do already have an anti-boss drone.


As for existing perks, the one that gives a 40% chance of doubled credits seems a bit too strong to me.  I'm sure I can think of others but that's one that comes to mind.  And of course all of the damage ones.


Also having mechs with more unique perk setups is a great idea.  Right now they really are a bit samey when it comes to that, which isn't very interesting.  Having each one stick with more of a theme would be nice.  And of course some perks that are entirely unique to each mech is a great idea.


All of this is sounding like it's going to be another really nice update to the game here. 


« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 01:32:03 AM by Misery »

Offline Pepisolo

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2016, 10:22:24 AM »
Quote
Damage splitting
I'll forget this idea then seeing as there's no support for it.

Quote
Trap Master

Seems reasonable to split this into two perks. Feasibility: Maybe currently possible in the engine using workarounds or small engine tweaks (not Keith required). Maybe!

Quote
Keyprentice


Not something that is currently possible in the engine, but the change might be small enough to warrant the engine work. Although there is practically zero budget for engine work from Keith, of course.

Quote
Shard efficiency

Not currently possible in the engine, but I can't imagine an easier engine tweak to make -- theoretically, unless I'm missing something.

Quote
Missile pack


Easy fix! Hurrah!

Quote
Armor upgrade

Currently possible, but tricky to balance.

Quote
Extra XP

Yeah, there already is a perk like this I think. Might need tweaking, though.

Quote
Auxillary system

Opens the door for some creative ideas as long as we like the general idea of a backup system.

Quote
Specialist

I have this prototype working.

Quote
Debuffs

Yeah, putting debuffs on missile systems seems cool. Would require certain engine functionality, though.

Quote
Culling Strike:  This could be pretty good against some things. An anti-Fearsome sort of thing, and those are the enemies that get players panicking more than anything. Bosses & minibosses should have immunity to something like this though.  Actually they should probably have immunity to a number of things.  We do already have an anti-boss drone.

I dunno, Culling against bosses seems fine to me. It works in Path of Exile! What's this anti-boss drone you mentioned?

Quote
As for existing perks, the one that gives a 40% chance of doubled credits seems a bit too strong to me.  I'm sure I can think of others but that's one that comes to mind.  And of course all of the damage ones.

We could make this 25% instead of 40%, but allow another 25% to be taken at a later level. So you can get up to 50%, but need to invest in 2 perks.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,799
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 10:33:00 AM »
Quote
Damage splitting
I'll forget this idea then seeing as there's no support for it.

Here's my thought:

 - Global (as current, but lower percentages)
 - Gun Damage (main and energy, uncommon, but higher percentages*)
 - Familiar & Missile (uncommon, but higher percentages*)

Rather than 5 separate perks its now 3.  Then on certain mechs you can supply the "this mech is the [X] mech, it gets a bonus to just [X]."  E.g. Blue Wonder is the energy mech, it can have a level-up perk that gives it a massive bonus to its energy weapon damage** or the Familiar Mech gets a massive bonus to familiar damage**

Players can still specialize if they want to but aren't forced to choose between main and offhand (because people will go main gun all the time every time).  Missile damage I don't feel is worth splitting off on its own, so I lumped it in with familiars.

Similarly you can do the same sorts of damage bonuses with attachments.  Attachments is a perfect place for "Does 50% more damage with missiles" instead of global 10%: you only get 1 of these and will change it out often.

*Relative to global damage boosts.  E.g. 20% is global, then say 30%
**Relative to global damage boosts. E.g. 20% is global, then say 50%

Offline Misery

  • Global Moderator
  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,964
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 10:41:19 AM »
Anti-boss drone = Narcotics Drone.

It's bloody awful against groups of small things, but it's very strong against Fearsomes and bosses as it causes big gaps in their pattern timings.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,799
Re: Perk Overhaul Brainstorming
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 11:52:18 AM »
Is that the one that first bullets that intercept other bullets?