Author Topic: Items, locked chests, etc  (Read 5198 times)

Offline Frumple

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2017, 10:44:37 AM »
... huh. So do lumiflares have some kind of damage resistance or somethin'? Because I've unloaded 9 torp cannon shots directly into a(n already about a sixth or seventh dead, so missing a hundred-ish HP or thereabouts) rusted without it dying, and checking those things are supposed to be doing 200 damage a shot, or something close to it. According to that HP number the thing should have been dead a bit less than three times over from that kind of damage output, and it wasn't dead at all.

Guess I can just check, now that I think about it. And checking seems to say no, which now has me horribly confused.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2017, 04:06:50 PM »
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Charger (enemy): Immune to damage until woken up. Is that intended?

I think that's intentional, yeah. Misery can answer for sure.

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Time Machine: Available from Locked Chests?

Yeah, it was set to that, but I'm not sure if that should be the case or not. Seems a bit more like a secret room only item, so I changed it to only seed there. Thanks!

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Harmony (sac item): Since that one isn't going away, might as well tweak it to make it worth picking up. How about making the effect "until hit, per floor" instead of one-time and it's gone forever?

I'm not so sure this is such a bad item as is for the cost, although it is a risky one. In any case, people do rarely tend to take it, so let's try making it give you the buff per floor to see how that works out. I'm a little concerned it may be a bit OP like that, though. Is this item auto-win if using repulsive hornet mines?

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Deep Blue: Description typo, inceases -> increases

Fixed, thanks!

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Dual entrance boss room are a thing now? Nice.

Not sure! I can't recall any feature like that being put in. Maybe that was always there?

Thanks for the tanky enemy list. That should be useful for Misery. The list of overcrowded rooms should be useful, too. Cheers!

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huh. So do lumiflares have some kind of damage resistance or somethin'? Because I've unloaded 9 torp cannon shots directly into a(n already about a sixth or seventh dead, so missing a hundred-ish HP or thereabouts) rusted without it dying, and checking those things are supposed to be doing 200 damage a shot, or something close to it. According to that HP number the thing should have been dead a bit less than three times over from that kind of damage output, and it wasn't dead at all.

Guess I can just check, now that I think about it. And checking seems to say no, which now has me horribly confused.

There is also some enemy HP scaling per floor, so that may account for the extra tankiness. The HP on that enemy is probably getting reduced a fair bit.

Online Logorouge

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2017, 10:35:01 PM »
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Harmony (sac item) [...]
I'm a little concerned it may be a bit OP like that, though. Is this item auto-win if using repulsive hornet mines?
Hm, good question. Between traps, melee enemies, surprise attacks and some specific bosses where magnets just won't work, I would probably lose it rather quickly anyway. But good call on making it a secret room item, that's a nice addition to that item pool I think.

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Dual entrance boss room are a thing now? Nice.

Not sure! I can't recall any feature like that being put in. Maybe that was always there?
Previously, it would indicate two doors on the map but one of them would always be a phantom door not actually there to use. For once, both were there and useable. I'll keep an eye out to see if it happens again.


Now, here's a couple of rooms that I felt were overcrowded or a little too in-your-face. (Some of that might be caused by the specific selection of enemies I got):

PT_Pacman
BGS_DynamicEntry
BGS_TheArena
ZMC_SniperPassage (3 inferno cannons + 1 blaze cannon + rearguard snipers for the rest. Don't know how I escaped unscathed.)
CMP_BridgeTrolls
BGS_ConfinedWithTurrets
Reath_X
ZHA_Dumbell
ZHA_CrossDefence

That's it for now.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2017, 04:31:26 PM »
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Dual entrance boss room are a thing now? Nice.

Not sure! I can't recall any feature like that being put in. Maybe that was always there?
Previously, it would indicate two doors on the map but one of them would always be a phantom door not actually there to use. For once, both were there and useable. I'll keep an eye out to see if it happens again.

It's always been there, iirc.  The specific boss room has to have multiple entryways and the mapgen has to connect to them.  2 or 3 entrances is just a rare occurrence (3 is the most possible and should be incredibly rare).

Charger (enemy): Immune to damage until woken up. Is that intended?
All enemies that have a sleeping state should be damage immune until woken up.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2017, 05:43:36 PM »
Here's a few things I noted while doing a bunch of runs the other day:

Charger (enemy): Immune to damage until woken up. Is that intended?
Time Machine: Available from Locked Chests?
Harmony (sac item): Since that one isn't going away, might as well tweak it to make it worth picking up. How about making the effect "until hit, per floor" instead of one-time and it's gone forever?
Deep Blue: Description typo, inceases -> increases
Fragments: Small gun firerate a bit too high on normal?
Dual entrance boss room are a thing now? Nice.
Tanky enemies: I started testing values for the tankiest of the bunch and here's the ones that felt the most natural so far. Enough time to do their thing without overstaying their welcome.

Flak Launcher: 1800->1200 HP
Rusted LumiFlare: 605->405 HP
Blue Larva: 650->450 HP
Green Larva: 700->500 HP
Purple Larva: 820->620 HP
Core Blade 1: 1900->1300 HP
Core Blade 2: 2200->1600 HP
Core Razor 1: 1950->1350 HP
Core Razor 2: 2200->1600 HP

I also collected a whole lot of room names to be checked for potential overcrowding, but I'm running out of time so I'll have to post those later. Thanks for reading!


Ahh, yeah there really are some typos in the bloody numbers.   Flak Cannon was supposed to be at 1200 to start with, and I thought the Rusted Lumiflares were at 350.  Ugh.

Now as for that Harmony item, honestly, I think that just plain shouldnt be there.   That seems more like a "very rarely found in locked chest" sort of item, not something that sould be taking up space in a sacrifice room.  Yet at the same time, yeah, for the purple mech it'd make it invincible. 



For the bit that was mentioned about enemy immunity, it's not the case for ALL of them, but yes, some are immune to damage until you get close.  Typically this applies to anything considered to be a "jumpscare" enemy.   Wheras other things, like Facerippers, have no such immunity and will wake upon being shot.

Online Logorouge

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2017, 06:14:31 PM »
Dual entrance boss room are a thing now? Nice.

It's always been there, iirc.  The specific boss room has to have multiple entryways and the mapgen has to connect to them.  2 or 3 entrances is just a rare occurrence (3 is the most possible and should be incredibly rare).
Interesting. Any chance the mapgen could be slightly modified to make it more frequent? It's kind of a bummer that it doesn't happen more often. First time I've seen it despite my unholy amount of hours played.

Now as for that Harmony item, honestly, I think that just plain shouldnt be there.   That seems more like a "very rarely found in locked chest" sort of item, not something that should be taking up space in a sacrifice room.  Yet at the same time, yeah, for the purple mech it'd make it invincible.
I'm curious to test the modified version Pepsisolo sent into the secret room. It will be nice to see something new pop up in there and not see the old version in the sacrifice room. But I think I'll do a couple of test runs with Dipole to see how easy/hard it is to keep the effect with the current item.

Also, more rooms in-your-face and/or overcrowded:

ZMC_PowerGrid
BGS_ForgingTheRiver
BGS_HaveToBreakAFewEggs
END_Square2_Snipers(F4)
END_StandardNS2_BigWindow(F4)
END_StandardNS1_GuardedCrossing(F4) (That sleeping enemy behind the central turret...)
BGS_AbsoluteChaos(F3)
END_Square1_Clockwise(F3)
BGS_TwistsAndTurns

Offline z99-_

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2017, 04:09:35 PM »
For rooms, I've got:

QuadNN/BGS_TheNoose

and, from a run back during Thanksgiving that I just found the notes to:

Standard/Reath_Chase
StandardEW/BGS_SplitPathway
FatVertical/ZMC_Quarantine
SquareNE/GlassZoo(6)

I also put down BigWindow(F4), but Logorouge already mentioned it.

It seems like, for me at least, how difficult a room is is directly proportional to how many Dissevers I encounter. The issue isn't really their health, it's that they always spawn in these corridors that become either filled with their shot blocking balls, or the 1000 needles that erupt from them. I think maybe either their pattern needs to be nerfed, or they need to be moved to a higher class. Maybe make it so that player shots cause the balls to explode prematurely, instead of just outright blocking them? Or remove the shot blocking ability entirely? IDK.

Other stuff:

On Level 7 perk list for White Gloss, I see a Small Hull Reinforcements that gives +4 HP. I thought Small is +2, and Medium is +4? The other choices were Medium Energy Tank and Missile Pack, so it should probably be changed to Medium.

Sacrifice Item idea: Instant Gratification - restores all your health like an infinite health pickup, but at the cost of your max health. It's simple, could be really useful in certain situations, and all you need is one of the unused health pickup images for the item image!

I know this is Really Really Nitpicky, but could the colors of the health pickups be changed to match the different levels of exp pickups? It just seems like it would make sense (to me, at least)

Pics are of White Gloss perk thing, and what I, personally, consider Too Much Dissever

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2017, 07:18:56 PM »
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On Level 7 perk list for White Gloss, I see a Small Hull Reinforcements that gives +4 HP. I thought Small is +2, and Medium is +4? The other choices were Medium Energy Tank and Missile Pack, so it should probably be changed to Medium.

Sacrifice Item idea: Instant Gratification - restores all your health like an infinite health pickup, but at the cost of your max health. It's simple, could be really useful in certain situations, and all you need is one of the unused health pickup images for the item image!

I know this is Really Really Nitpicky, but could the colors of the health pickups be changed to match the different levels of exp pickups? It just seems like it would make sense (to me, at least)

Ah yeah, probably just a typo that hull thing, good spot, thanks. Yeah, that sacrifice item might work. Sacrifice 3 max health for a full heal. Regarding the colour of the new HP pickups, we were really not sure what colours to go with. In the end we just went with the icons going lighter from red to eventually gold. We could switch to Blue, Green, Gold, yeah, but I'm not sure what would be best. I might have to start a poll at some point or something.


Offline Misery

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2017, 07:36:47 PM »
Dissevers:  Their ability to guard/block passages is actually the intention of their entire design.  Defensive-class enemies are placed for that purpose.

The trick to defeating them is to NOT move much when dealing with their attack.  It's a "panic" pattern... it's designed to get you to flip out and panic-dodge, which causes the shards to go all over the place.  That attack doesnt have any RNG in it:  It's a purely aimed attack.  Dodging it actually doesnt involve moving all that much.

Also, remember that the starting position of the wall they produce is ALSO aimed.  Make them put it in a position that makes it easier for you to get at them.  There's some tricks you can do here, but I'm not going to go TOO far into hint-giving here.

For the time being at least, I'm not going to make any changes to them.



Also, I support the idea of changing the colors of the health items to match the EXP items.

Online Logorouge

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2017, 11:06:18 PM »
Now that I'm able to play again, here's a few things I noted and the related suggestions:


-Deep Blue: Description, inrcease -> increase

-Warhog: Description, sentry turrent -> sentry turret (Ok that one isn't from playing, but I could not not mention it :P)

-TinyDamageBoost: Typo in the game files, "MissileShotDamage = 0..02"

-AllInTheWrist: Icon in pause menu disappeared after a few rooms.

-Viper Strike (secondary): Friendly fire

-Abmoog Shooter: Is their movement pattern kaput? I'm sure they used to do more than just running into a wall and wait for death.

-Crystal Mother: Last phase green arrow incomplete on Normal?


-CMP_CrazyTest3 and CMP_CrazyTest4: Secret rooms with only a single item. I think they need 2, so there can be some agonizing choices between the different options.

-BGS_GettingTighter: Overcrowded room

-BGS_TwoFaced: Spawning vipers in that room is a big problem. It only take seconds before you have a huge wall of snakes completely blocking the tiny opening to the other side.

-Condemned room Hunter: Obligatory damage to grab the reward. I recommend changing 1 spike to a see-through block that pops when cleared.


-RocketMan: Upperscreen message, add "for current floor" for clarity.

-Autobot: Is it just me or could that drone really use a buff? More range maybe?

-Temporary Orbital (consumable): Too much HP? Seems extremely durable for a cheap one-time item. Does it regen between rooms?

-Lorentz Factor (sac): 10 -> 8 sec. Just like pre-nerfed Phasing Grace, 10 seconds is a looong time in battle and this one makes Condemned rooms a joke. But since it doesn't make you invincible, the duration still needs to be a fair bit above Phasing Grace.

-Harmony (secret room item): After several test runs with this one, I think it should be limited to 1 floor only just like RocketMan. Energy is just too easily exploitable and the effect coming back at the start of each floor just felt weird.

-Disruptor (secondary): Damage is too high. Its debuff is already extremely good, I don't think it needs the high dps on top of that.

-Saving Interests (perk): 20% -> 30%. Contrary to the competing perks of that level, you actually need to save up money (and not buy power ups) to benefit from the effect. I think the interest rate should reflect that and make it worth your while.

-Missile Salvager (perk): 5% -> 10%. If Rex taught me anything, it's that anything below 15% missile regain on kills is barely noticeable. I don't think players should have to stack three perks like this before they begin getting a noticeable effect on their gameplay. It would be nice if there was another good option for the incoming Warhog too, instead of just making a beeline for the sac item. (You know that's going to happen. :P)

-Holy Fire (secondary): Very cool late game weapon, but has as much punch as a sick kitten. Please give it some love...ideally in the form of added damage or fire duration.


-Bloody Rage (perk): Visual cue? I never know if it's working or not.

-Second Chance (module): While watching InkEyes play, I didn't even notice when he used his second chance (I rewinded the video to find the moment). I think it needs a special effect and/or sfx when you get rez. It's not the kind of thing you wanna see go unnoticed during battle.

-Rush Hour (challenge): "Make it to the next floor in 3min" -> 10min (so it's usable until overhaul) or deactivate till then.

-No Pain No Gain (challenge): Pick up 3 sac items -> 1 item (again, so it's usable until overhaul) or deactivate till then.


-Tutorial level: Make players go down stairs at the end to avoid the current confusion of newbies when they first reach the end of the tutorial and introducing them to the fabled yellow stairs of level-ending.

-Secret rooms are too easy to find at the moment, since they auto-open if there's no health shard block in the room. Could it be changed that at least throwing a missile at the wall is required to open the entrance if there's no shard block? (Spawn an invisible bombable activation block on the would-be entrance so you can missile your way in regardless of the room?)


Woo, that might have been a bit more than "a few things" after all...

« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 11:10:31 PM by Logorouge »

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2017, 08:33:06 PM »
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-Deep Blue: Description, inrcease -> increase

Got it, thanks!

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Warhog: Description, sentry turrent -> sentry turret (Ok that one isn't from playing, but I could not not mention it :P)

Got it. For a second I thought we'd accidentally pushed that code or something, heh. I forgot that Misery posted screenshots.

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TinyDamageBoost: Typo in the game files, "MissileShotDamage = 0..02"

Got it, thanks!

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-AllInTheWrist: Icon in pause menu disappeared after a few rooms.

Good spot! This was caused by me setting those systems to be destroyed rather than simply having them run out of ammo. I fixed a few other perks that were set up wrongly like this too.

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-Viper Strike (secondary): Friendly fire

Fixed, ta.

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Abmoog Shooter: Is their movement pattern kaput? I'm sure they used to do more than just running into a wall and wait for death.

Not sure. Something doesn't look, right, yeah. I'll get Ptarth to take a look at them seeing as he designed them. I tested them quickly and they seem to be immobile for some reason.

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Crystal Mother: Last phase green arrow incomplete on Normal?

The big arrow thing? Seems to be fine on my computer. The fire rate on this pattern is maybe too high, which perhaps can cause problems on other setups. I'll get Misery to take a look.

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-CMP_CrazyTest3 and CMP_CrazyTest4: Secret rooms with only a single item. I think they need 2, so there can be some agonizing choices between the different options.

I'll add this and the other room stuff to Misery's list, since he kind of takes charge of rooms.

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-RocketMan: Upperscreen message, add "for current floor" for clarity.

Fixed, thanks.

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-Autobot: Is it just me or could that drone really use a buff? More range maybe?

I upped it's range a little for now. I might need to take a longer look at the bot some time, though.

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-Temporary Orbital (consumable): Too much HP? Seems extremely durable for a cheap one-time item. Does it regen between rooms?

Not sure. I'll need to test a bit more in game proper. I never seem to take this one myself usually. I'll have to make a note to take it on my next runs.

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-Lorentz Factor (sac): 10 -> 8 sec. Just like pre-nerfed Phasing Grace, 10 seconds is a looong time in battle and this one makes Condemned rooms a joke. But since it doesn't make you invincible, the duration still needs to be a fair bit above Phasing Grace.

Seems good, thanks.

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-Harmony (secret room item): After several test runs with this one, I think it should be limited to 1 floor only just like RocketMan. Energy is just too easily exploitable and the effect coming back at the start of each floor just felt weird.

Yeah, seems good, cheers!

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-Disruptor (secondary): Damage is too high. Its debuff is already extremely good, I don't think it needs the high dps on top of that.

What makes me slightly hesitant to nerf this one is that the weapon seems to be not the most desirable due to its short range. I'm going to need to do a few more runs with this, first,  I think.

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-Saving Interests (perk): 20% -> 30%. Contrary to the competing perks of that level, you actually need to save up money (and not buy power ups) to benefit from the effect. I think the interest rate should reflect that and make it worth your while.

I'm not sure on the numbers of this one. It may be that major coinage is too powerful in comparison. Any maths people got any thoughts on these numbers? Major coinage gives 20% chance to receive double credits, Savings Interest gives a 20% bonus on your current credits at the start of a new floor. Major coinage might perhaps need a nerf?

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-Missile Salvager (perk): 5% -> 10%. If Rex taught me anything, it's that anything below 15% missile regain on kills is barely noticeable. I don't think players should have to stack three perks like this before they begin getting a noticeable effect on their gameplay. It would be nice if there was another good option for the incoming Warhog too, instead of just making a beeline for the sac item. (You know that's going to happen. :P)

As the creator of Rex, I bow to your knowledge on this one. 10% it is!

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Holy Fire (secondary): Very cool late game weapon, but has as much punch as a sick kitten. Please give it some love...ideally in the form of added damage or fire duration.

Interesting. This was set way too low actually. The numbers were set correctly by Ptarth way back, but the system also had max_damage_per_entity_per_salvo set to 50, which probably wasn't taken into account. I've removed the max damage per salvo, and also buffed the DPS a bit, so this should be a lot better in the next build. Thanks!

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-Bloody Rage (perk): Visual cue? I never know if it's working or not.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I even like this perk. I might just remove or replace it.

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-Second Chance (module): While watching InkEyes play, I didn't even notice when he used his second chance (I rewinded the video to find the moment). I think it needs a special effect and/or sfx when you get rez. It's not the kind of thing you wanna see go unnoticed during battle.

I've added a quick screen flash for now which seems to do the trick. Maybe I can look into an SFX too some time.

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Rush Hour (challenge): "Make it to the next floor in 3min" -> 10min (so it's usable until overhaul) or deactivate till then.

-No Pain No Gain (challenge): Pick up 3 sac items -> 1 item (again, so it's usable until overhaul) or deactivate till then.

I've just deactivated these until the probations gets overhauled.

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Tutorial level: Make players go down stairs at the end to avoid the current confusion of newbies when they first reach the end of the tutorial and introducing them to the fabled yellow stairs of level-ending.

I'll look into this some time in the future, thanks.

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-Secret rooms are too easy to find at the moment, since they auto-open if there's no health shard block in the room. Could it be changed that at least throwing a missile at the wall is required to open the entrance if there's no shard block? (Spawn an invisible bombable activation block on the would-be entrance so you can missile your way in regardless of the room?)

Yeah. I don't know what's going on with these secret rooms. They are quite poor in comparison to the ones in Isaac, for example. Finding the rooms in Isaac seemed interesting and fun. Finding them in SR is a bit...bloik, heh. We need to look into them a bit more.

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Woo, that might have been a bit more than "a few things" after all...

Awesome feedback, thanks! :)

Offline ptarth

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2017, 10:12:17 PM »
Major Coinage versus Saving Interests

Major Coinage: 20% chance of double credits
120% average income, with variance spikes


Saving Interests: +20% credits on floor change
+20% each floor,no variance, requires you to keep the credits, but can only be used multiple times on the same cash.

Let's pretend you get 100 credits on each floor, go down 5 floors, and assume there isn't a credit limit.
(These are all very wrong, you don't and it scales, but that's not important. It is a okay proxy for the best case scenario for Saving Interests)
Major Coinage:
1: 120
2: 240
3: 360
4: 480
5: 600

Saving Interests
1: 100
2: 220
3: 364
4: 536
5: 743

Well, that's a marginal gain to Saving Interests, in its best case scenario. And that isn't going to ever happen. What's most likely going to happen is you spend almost all your money every floor, and you get nothing from it.

So, let's guess about a desired behavior. Major Coinage is 20% income boost. Which is baseline okay. I know that Pepisolo said Major Coinage might be overpowered, and I can't really argue. But I've never been excited about picking up the perk ;).
So, how about 50% boost for Saving Interests.
Why you ask? Well, if the player saves 170 credits, then they start the next floor with 255 (max). So the player gets an extra $85 credits per floor, once they manage to collect the 170. That should occur around floor 4ish. That would get them 4*85=340 extra credits over the course of the game. This would be compared to the straight +20% total credits that comes from Major Coinage. The variability in credit gaining schemes make my estimate there very poor, but it is around 200.

So, I propose 50%.

Rush Hour - Quick Fix - You teleport to Boss if you pick it up?
Probation: End Floor with <$X credits. It has actually been <=$5 for ages now, but one of the language files wasn't changed. I fixed that.
Secret Rooms - Didn't it used to be you had to use a missile on a wall or break the health shard block?

re:Abmoog. That's strange. I'll look into it.


Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2017, 11:50:11 PM »
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I'll get Misery to take a look.

UGH FINE

Yeah. I don't know what's going on with these secret rooms. They are quite poor in comparison to the ones in Isaac, for example. Finding the rooms in Isaac seemed interesting and fun. Finding them in SR is a bit...bloik, heh. We need to look into them a bit more.

Originally, they did work like Isaac (this being super early in development).  But.... nobody could find them.  It was always rather unclear as to where potential door spots are in the rooms, and there wasn't much in the way of rules as to where the things appear.  So it was changed to the current method.

If anyone can come up with a better, more interesting idea, by all means, let us know.  These rooms really are too easy to find.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2017, 11:09:16 AM »
They're too easy to find because glowing blocks hold health shards and once you learn that you're going to explode all of them, every time.
(Ok, there's like two I skip in one room just because it takes two missiles to get one shard and I often don't want to spend that many missiles in one place).

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Items, locked chests, etc
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2017, 12:20:56 PM »
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So, I propose 50%.

Seems like a fairly convincing case. We'll see how 50% works out.

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Rush Hour - Quick Fix - You teleport to Boss if you pick it up?

It could be converted to a different type of item, I suppose. I think we might as well just keep the icon, though, for a probation overhaul, whenever that takes place. Feel free to take charge of that project if you want, I know in the past you've shown interest in that.

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If anyone can come up with a better, more interesting idea, by all means, let us know.  These rooms really are too easy to find.

Yeah, these could do with working differently, I think. How about going back to Isaac style, but the wall would appear slightly cracked, thus making them easier to find?