Is it ever worth using a key on access to a consumable shop?

[Wingflier]

I don't ask this question facetiously. The consumables have even been (greatly) improved in the latest patch, which I love.

However, given that keys are a commodity, and that consumables are a single-use, doesn't it seem a little counter-intuitive to spend a key for access to buy something which disappears after a single shot?

It seems like it would be a much better gamble to use a key on a "chest" in the hopes that it will give you a consumable (they often do), or for access to a weapon/drone shop where you're buying a permanent upgrade.

Also, the fact that once you have access to the consumable shop (after using the key), you still have to pay for the consumables gives me even less incentive to do it.

I'm probably just really bad at the game though so that's why I'm asking!

[x4000]

On the other hand, you do get your pick of consumables.  Still, you raise a really good point.  I know that I personally never buy my way into the consumables shop or the minor items shop.  Perhaps if those were adjusted to always be unlocked, they would be a better competition for my credits (which is the idea), since they are unworthy competitors for my keys in my opinion.  I think that would actually solve the biggest problem with key scarcity at the moment, honestly.

[Wingflier]

I'm glad you have the same experience/decision-making-process as I do.

Keys are pretty scarce and so I don't feel like the gamble of opening a consumable shop is worth it given that I might not even need the consumables therein, or find another one somewhere else on the level for free.

I'm not sure what the solution is. I like your solution (of keeping the rooms unlocked) the most, but another potential is keeping the locked consumable rooms and having all the consumables within free? That seems a little too much though, and I'm still not sure I would use a key even if the consumables were free.

[x4000]

It also would lead to lots of backtracking to get all the consumables.

[Logorouge]

Key scarcity? Maybe it's been too long since I played the game...

Anyway, now that consumables are useful, my answer to that question changed from "never" to "under specific conditions". If you don't already have a consumable, got more than 1 key and the cash to spare, sure. One well-placed consumable can make a boss trivially easy or save your butt from a deathtrap room (although those should be less frequent now).

[Misery]

Keys are only scarce in the early game.

Once you've gotten a couple of floors in, there's usually not much need to hoard the things anymore.  And if somehow you still don't have enough, there's the Keymaster perks.  About halfway through the game even without those perks I usually have like 20 of the things, and I open chests fairly frequently.

That being said, yes, it can be worth it to go into the consumables shop, in hopes that some of the really powerful ones are there (Nanites, nuke, one way barrier).  They tend not to cost all that much.  I tend to go in there but then I also play the game in a min-maxer sort of way (though I'm also playing on Hard, which certainly gives incentive to do exactly that).   The only problem is the backtracking.  At some point we need to do something about that.  Backtracking has always been a bit of an issue in this.

[Wingflier]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll keep that in mind.

By the way, so far I've LOVED all the new changes. It feels like an entirely new game.

When I first started playing it (probably a beta or two before release) it was an enjoyable game, but it felt very unpolished (in particular the consumables and weapons and "devil deals" and a lot of other things were way out of whack).

This to me feels like the definitive version of the game. Now I can recommend it to my friends and know they are going to have a really good time.

By the way, I'll probably buy some more copies for my friends, is there a way outside of the Steam store to do it so that Arcen gets all the profit? The Humble Store perhaps?

[Misery]

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

I quite enjoyed it in it's early form but the backwards difficulty progression, bad consumables, and the near-total lack of ever finding reasons to actually change weapons (not to mention the lack of weapons actually appearing in the freaking weapons shop) irritated the heck outta me.

And of course, the broken rooms.... ugh.  I cant believe I let those get that bad.


But with all of that stuff fixed it's sooooooo much better.

Hard mode also isn't a bloody disaster anymore.  I remember seeing even just in Managarmr's "fail" video, where he ran into broken rooms over and over again (I think most didn't actually recognize them as "broken", but instead just thought they were supposed to be hard like that), and it just... ugh.  Worse than watching the damn Warden find new ways to break down.

Though I'm going to be interested to see what happens when people hit floors 6 and 7.  Most late-game-only enemies are entirely designed by me, and then after that I'm typically the one doing enemy balance to start with... so I wonder if some parts of the final couple of levels might end up being a bit too much. 

If anyone finds that to be the case, of course, they can just let me know.  ....that doesn't necessarily mean I'll actually CHANGE anything, I might just laugh, but still, they can let me know. 

I personally am pretty pleased with the enemy balance right now though.   And I think it then also meshes well with weapon balance.


The ONE thing that kinda stands out and bothers me at this point is that there aren't actually enough sacrifice room items.  If you do get to the later floors, the sacrifice room typically becomes empty and useless (like, literally empty, with nothing inside it) at floor 6, because the game has already spawned every item in that pool.   That's a bit of an issue and also means the selection is a bit too limited.  I'd like to see that expanded so the sacrifice room mechanic is actually relevant through the entire game, not just in the earlier sections.

[Draco18s]

Do sac items ever spawn a second time? i.e. if I find Large and In Charge, but decide I don't have the HP for it on this floor, will I ever see it again?

[Misery]

I don't think so.  That's why the shop is always empty afterwards.

[Wingflier]

Is there any reason the sac items couldn't or wouldn't reappear on subsequent floors?

This would be one way to handle the fact that by floor 5, the rooms are usually empty.

[Logorouge]

Is there any reason the sac items couldn't or wouldn't reappear on subsequent floors?

I'm guessing it was done this way to avoid unholy stacking of the crazier items without having to track which one the player already bought.

[Misery]

Is there any reason the sac items couldn't or wouldn't reappear on subsequent floors?

I'm guessing it was done this way to avoid unholy stacking of the crazier items without having to track which one the player already bought.

Yep.

Items are either set to be able to appear as many times as the RNG wants, or only once.  As far as I know there is no way to only get them to appear based on wether or not the player already has them.

Mostly, we just outright need more sacrifice room items for the base game here.

[ptarth]

My next evil plan is to lower consumable item prices (and increase uses). Don't tell Pepisolo or Misery.
 >D

We also have a list of new consumables, but I'm not supposed to say anything about that yet.

[Misery]

My next evil plan is to lower consumable item prices (and increase uses). Don't tell Pepisolo or Misery.
 >D

We also have a list of new consumables, but I'm not supposed to say anything about that yet.

Hah, I see your hidden tiny text there.  You cant fool me!  Hahah!