Author Topic: I'm just not very good at this game...  (Read 1249 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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I'm just not very good at this game...
« on: January 21, 2017, 08:58:27 AM »
Check the health loss.

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2017, 10:15:24 AM »
You managed to absorb over 300 health damage before you died? Don't feel bad, you're quite the survivalist.
Looking at my own after-run reports, I take pretty much the same amount of hits as you, but my shield(s) absorb nearly 3 times more damage than yours. With a bit of preventive measures and more consumables thrown in the mix, I'm sure you could cut those HP losts by half (if not more) and fly to victory.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 10:25:27 AM »
I ended up in many really bad situations and the only reason I survived was because of the health regen over time sacrifice item. I also gave up a shield for a health increase, so I was sporting a no shield, health regen run. That might be why the numbers are so skewed.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 10:25:57 AM »
This discussion actually got me thinking.

Mantis issue on post mortems.
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Offline Misery

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2017, 12:26:25 AM »
This discussion actually got me thinking.

Mantis issue on post mortems.

I doubt this one would happen.  It sounds like alot of extra coding work for a feature that wouldnt actually be of much use.  Not to mention this sort of thing is usually not really associated with action roguelikes. 


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Check the health loss.

All according to plan.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2017, 11:08:35 AM »
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I doubt this one would happen.  It sounds like alot of extra coding work for a feature that wouldnt actually be of much use.  Not to mention this sort of thing is usually not really associated with action roguelikes.

I think what would be really good is a scoreboard system of some kind. This would be super shmuppy and not something that other similar games have I don't think. We could also have it as an online leaderboard... I say we could, what I really mean is in a super ideal world where SR actually sold decently then perhaps implementing something like this would be feasible and awesome, but unfortunately that's not the world we're in, heh.

For the fun of it, how would a scoreboard work?

Each category of enemy would give a certain score value.
Perfecting a boss would double that score value.
Perfecting a floor would give a bonus.
Collecting items would give points...

... not sure. If perhaps we could come up with a reasonable scoring formula then that would make having a scoreboard that tiny bit likelier.

As an aside, the concept of perfects in this game is SUPER unintuitive. Everybody in gaming knows that getting a perfect means that you kill X enemy without losing life. That's it. It doesn't mean killing X enemy and not using X item or not using this other X item. As an example,  I'm still not 100% clear on what a perfect actually is in this game, heh. I really think we should move to the simpler definition that everybody knows. If the player uses a bunch of missiles to achieve this end then that seems fair enough to me, if they're good enough to use their missiles defensively then nice.

The amount of posts I've read that say "I perfected the boss but didn't get the achievement" seems to suggest that the current definition is way too unintuitive.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2017, 12:05:19 PM »
I doubt this one would happen.  It sounds like alot of extra coding work for a feature that wouldnt actually be of much use.  Not to mention this sort of thing is usually not really associated with action roguelikes.   
Would it really though? The information is there, I assume so I don't really think it would add that much to coding work. Of course this assumes you code like I do and not some other esoteric way that makes it overly difficult to present the information on the end screen to be presented to others. At the *very* least you should have modules picked up as it's very difficult to judge a run unless you know what modules and level ups a person has.

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You're a dick.
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Offline Misery

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 12:14:45 AM »
Quote
I doubt this one would happen.  It sounds like alot of extra coding work for a feature that wouldnt actually be of much use.  Not to mention this sort of thing is usually not really associated with action roguelikes.

I think what would be really good is a scoreboard system of some kind. This would be super shmuppy and not something that other similar games have I don't think. We could also have it as an online leaderboard... I say we could, what I really mean is in a super ideal world where SR actually sold decently then perhaps implementing something like this would be feasible and awesome, but unfortunately that's not the world we're in, heh.

For the fun of it, how would a scoreboard work?

Each category of enemy would give a certain score value.
Perfecting a boss would double that score value.
Perfecting a floor would give a bonus.
Collecting items would give points...

... not sure. If perhaps we could come up with a reasonable scoring formula then that would make having a scoreboard that tiny bit likelier.

As an aside, the concept of perfects in this game is SUPER unintuitive. Everybody in gaming knows that getting a perfect means that you kill X enemy without losing life. That's it. It doesn't mean killing X enemy and not using X item or not using this other X item. As an example,  I'm still not 100% clear on what a perfect actually is in this game, heh. I really think we should move to the simpler definition that everybody knows. If the player uses a bunch of missiles to achieve this end then that seems fair enough to me, if they're good enough to use their missiles defensively then nice.

The amount of posts I've read that say "I perfected the boss but didn't get the achievement" seems to suggest that the current definition is way too unintuitive.

To REALLY work in this game, it'd end up having to be a heck of alot more complicated than that.  I'll put it this way:  Look at how Isaac handles scoring (it has a full scoring system, for anyone that hasnt seen it).  It's complicated as hell.   And that's Isaac: This would need to be more than that.

I'm not going to go into the full description of why:  It has to do with alot of underlying design aspects, quite a number of which are my doing, and working in concert with those is, well... complicated.  Anyone that's ever played a full bullet-hell game and wondered why figuring out their scoring systems is like trying to do advanced calculus, well... they have similar aspects causing it to be that way.  Again, not going to explain why.  But I can say it just wouldnt work out.  WAY too much effort to come up with something truly balanced.  As in, something where I cant repeatedly poke holes in the concept.   Not to mention keeping it actually INTERESTING.  One thing that'd suuuuuuuuck is having a totally brainless one like that of Nuclear Throne.  And even that ONLY works because of the game's endless nature.  It would break down completely without the looping.


For perfecting a boss, what I understand it to be is:  A:, dont get hit (yes, shield damage counts), B: dont use missiles, and C: dont use consumables.   Maybe this needs to be communicated to the player a bit somehow.   The concept is based on shmups actually.  It's one thing to get through a boss fight without getting hit in one of those while using bombs to defend yourself (bombs usually being screen-clearing defensive bursts).   But an *actual* perfect is universally considered to be never taking a hit while ALSO not using any bombs.  It means you actually DODGED everything:  You didn't need to resort to backup measures to help you through.  In Starward, missiles serve the function that bombs do in a shmup.  Consumables can be used in a similar fashion.   So yeah, it's just that same tried-and-true formula applied here.   The game though doesnt really inform the player about what a perfect actually is.  That's the issue.


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You're a dick.

I get that alot.  Often while I'm laughing at something/someone.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 12:17:43 AM »
I really should pick up the infinite energy battery when playing as indigo dipole.

Offline Misery

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 12:32:47 AM »
There's an infinite energy item?  What?  Where?

Offline Draco18s

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2017, 12:33:47 AM »
There's an infinite energy item?  What?  Where?

The battery that gives you 10,000 energy a second until you take damage.

Indigo dipole is immune to damage as long as it has energy.

Offline Misery

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 01:54:05 AM »
Bah, I thought we took that stupid thing out.  Cant imagine why it's still in there.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2017, 02:25:19 AM »
Hey, I never asked for a freaking high score board! All I wanted was more information put in the mortem to spark discussion. Having to list all your modules, incredibilites, level up choices and whatnot (that are neatly stacked on the escape screen, btw, so the info is there) just on the odd chance that you just might die soon is a bit annoying.

At the very least:
What killed you?
Max health/shield?
Main weapon?
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2017, 10:01:14 AM »
Quote
To REALLY work in this game, it'd end up having to be a heck of alot more complicated than that.  I'll put it this way:  Look at how Isaac handles scoring (it has a full scoring system, for anyone that hasnt seen it).  It's complicated as hell.   And that's Isaac: This would need to be more than that.

I'm not going to go into the full description of why:  It has to do with alot of underlying design aspects, quite a number of which are my doing, and working in concert with those is, well... complicated.  Anyone that's ever played a full bullet-hell game and wondered why figuring out their scoring systems is like trying to do advanced calculus, well... they have similar aspects causing it to be that way.  Again, not going to explain why.  But I can say it just wouldnt work out.  WAY too much effort to come up with something truly balanced.  As in, something where I cant repeatedly poke holes in the concept.   Not to mention keeping it actually INTERESTING.  One thing that'd suuuuuuuuck is having a totally brainless one like that of Nuclear Throne.  And even that ONLY works because of the game's endless nature.  It would break down completely without the looping.

To be honest it's the implementation of a scoreboard that scares me more than coming up with the scoring formula (hey we have Ptarth to help with that!). Coming up with the formula would certainly take time, months of fiddling perhaps, but it could certainly be done, I think. We would just keep fiddling with the numbers until you can't poke a hole in them, anymore, heh. It would be a fair amount of work, though, yeah.

Quote
For perfecting a boss, what I understand it to be is:  A:, dont get hit (yes, shield damage counts), B: dont use missiles, and C: dont use consumables.   Maybe this needs to be communicated to the player a bit somehow.   The concept is based on shmups actually.  It's one thing to get through a boss fight without getting hit in one of those while using bombs to defend yourself (bombs usually being screen-clearing defensive bursts).   But an *actual* perfect is universally considered to be never taking a hit while ALSO not using any bombs.  It means you actually DODGED everything:  You didn't need to resort to backup measures to help you through.  In Starward, missiles serve the function that bombs do in a shmup.  Consumables can be used in a similar fashion.   So yeah, it's just that same tried-and-true formula applied here.   The game though doesnt really inform the player about what a perfect actually is.  That's the issue.

Perhaps for those very well versed in shmups, they would accept that definition, but I think generally a perfect is regarded as "don't get hit" and that's it. Hence why we see so many "I perfected the boss but didn't get the achievement" posts. I've played a fair amount of SHMUPs and I'm not even aware of the not using bombs thing. Also, bombs are usually big screen clearing super blasts which may be similar to consumables, but not so similar to missiles I don't think. Energy is also a limited resource but those are allowed -- and some energy weapons can really allow you to avoid dodging at all. The whole thing just seems so weird and unintuitive. It perhaps also cheapens the skill of defensive missile use. Used some super defensive missile skills? Sorry, no perfect for you as those skills don't count.

Meh, maybe it's a communication thing, too.

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Hey, I never asked for a freaking high score board! All I wanted was more information put in the mortem to spark discussion. Having to list all your modules, incredibilites, level up choices and whatnot (that are neatly stacked on the escape screen, btw, so the info is there) just on the odd chance that you just might die soon is a bit annoying.

At the very least:
What killed you?
Max health/shield?
Main weapon?

Yeah, I sent things off on a tangent a bit, heh. Sorry! Some additional information might be possible, but the problem is that us Freaking devs have limited ability to do engine work, and Chris and Keith don't really have much time to work on new SR features.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: I'm just not very good at this game...
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 12:03:20 PM »
Yeah, I sent things off on a tangent a bit, heh. Sorry! Some additional information might be possible, but the problem is that us Freaking devs have limited ability to do engine work, and Chris and Keith don't really have much time to work on new SR features.
Yeah, that's a sensible answer, but I hardly made a suggestion to have it implemented tomorrow. It was, after all, just a suggestion. If it requires engine changes or the intervention of Keith/Chris, then it'll be there on Mantis whenever they have time. ;)

Which also explains why Misery's reply looked so out of this world to me. It was like "URGH, never gonna happen! Can't be done!" and I was like "What? I'm a terrible coder, and I could whip that up in an hour. WTF?"

But yeah, if it requires Keith/Chris then I can see where he was coming from. That doesn't mean it'll never be done. Just waaaay later. ;)
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