Post by: x4000 on January 28, 2016, 06:18:47 am
Well @#$#@%$. The TLDR is that almost all the Arcen staff are going to lose their jobs, effective Monday.
The Good
Starward Rogue is out now, and it's getting glowing steam reviews (76, all positive, as of this writing) as well as a lot of positive youtube and twitch coverage. Mostly from smaller channels with a few exceptions at the moment, but still. People are playing it and they are really loving it! As in, more than anything else we've done since AI War -- really?? That's awesome news!
The Bad
Oh, but the sales suck. We're lost in a sea of other titles. About 9,000 people on Steam have wishlisted the title, which is awesome -- next time this goes on discount, hopefully they'll pick it up (but I mean, it's only $11.99 USD and it's 10% off already!). By contrast, about 2,100 people have bought the game across Steam and Humble.
Deja Vu?
I'll save you the trouble of pointing out that this has happened to us before. Back in 2010 we had a lot of trouble, and then promptly were pulled out of it by an outpouring of support. I still had to lay off about half the team that worked on Tidalis, but the company itself continued on and eventually grew larger than ever before.
We had some more woes in early 2014, right before The Last Federation came out. These were not particularly public, but we lost a bunch of staff then again. By making a lot of personal financial investments and by making the staff cuts, I managed to get us to the finish line on that game without us having to cry for help again. It wasn't something I ever wanted to do again -- particularly after in 2010, that became part of our reputation. This isn't exactly something you want to be known for.
Anyway, TLF then became our fastest-selling title to date (though it's total sales have not matched AI War), and we wound up with a large cash buffer. I brought back on some of the staff I had had to lay off previously, albeit more carefully in terms of how many people and how many hours. I didn't want this to happen again.
Stars Beyond Reach
Wait, I thought we were talking about Starward Rogue? Yeah, but my chief screw-up this time happened in relation to Stars Beyond Reach. You may recall that in early October we decided to push that game back until Q2 2016, citing burn-out on the game and being creatively stagnant, etc. That was after pushing the game back repeatedly, first from May to July, and then to late September.
When we started on Stars Beyond Reach, we were relatively cash-rich. We had over $200k in the bank, solid monthly income, and I was feeling my oats. It was time for that big awesome 4X game I'd always been wanting to make. What better time, right? People had been asking us to do a true 4X for years, too, and now we were finally ready.
What happened next is complicated, and the details are somewhat up for debate. However you look at it, though, it's my fault. Basically I overreached with the design, is the simplest way to put it. We spent a TON of time in R&D mode, and then went to beta, and found out how much the early versions kinda sucked. So we did more. And more. And more. And it got better with every iteration. The game was becoming fun, inch by inch.
However, all this time spent in extra development more than doubled the cost of making the game, and in the meantime our steady stream of income from our 2014-and-before titles started to dry up. The Steam store changed a lot, and periodic discount sales -- as well as the larger store-wide sales -- were no longer the huge windfalls they once had been. Our non-discount-period sales were up because of the new changes, so that was good. But the promotional income was gutted, and that was our main source of income. So we started bleeding money.
The Money Bleed
The image to the left shows a pretty good approximation of what happened month by month. You'll notice that nowhere in there does it include paying me back for the money that I had to put into the company in order to finish The Last Federation (that was around $40k). It does include the company line of credit, which I had put to about a balance of $50k right as TLF was coming out.
In other words, yeah, we ran ourselves down to our last dime making TLF. I say we -- I mean me. I mean, there again, it was my fault for being overly ambitious, and then really going through a lot of combat models trying to get things fun, etc. (I thought I had learned my lesson after the TLF project was such a close call, but clearly not.)
Anyway, yeah, first thing to do was pay off the LOC so that we were not being hit with $400 or more in interest payments each month on that. But at any rate, the company was really flying high in 2014. Our income actually has grown every year except for 2015, but in 2014 it jumped a huge amount from our previous high of about $400k gross income (in a company financial sense -- not in the sense of gross sales at distributors sites -- from that standpoint the $400k was our net income after distributor fees and taxes). Overall our gross income for 2014 was about $700k, which was huge for us.
That meant the gross sales prior to the distributor cuts was well over $1m. Coool! Incidentally, our total gross sales prior to distributor cuts for all our games in the last 6.5 years has now passed over $3.5 million, give or take a bit. Yay us!
I didn't get paid at all in 2012, and had put at least half my income back into the company in 2013 and 2014 to keep it going, but our overall library of games -- and thus pool of long-term income -- was growing. When I say it like that, it sounds kind of stupid, but basically it boils down to the fact that I had enough to live on for my needs, enough to pay staff, and enough to keep making games.
Most of our games have made money (well, actually about half of them have earned more than they cost), and out of those some made VASTLY more than they cost to make (AI War in particular, but TLF also did very well on that front). So it's not completely moronic to say "we'll worry about that back income later, and right now the important thing is to come out with another game that is awesome and which hopefully has a solid reception like the other games of ours which made money." All it would take is one more game like TLF and all of that back history would be wiped away, PLUS we'd have a handy war chest as buffer for during future games.
What happened, instead, was our back catalog except for AI War and TLF all pretty much stopped earning any money around mid-2015 when some of the Steam store changes happened. And our ability to gain substantial income from periodic promotions disappeared, so we stopped having "on months and off months" and pretty much just shifted to "off months."
The First Crossroads
In April of 2015, I knew we wouldn't be able to finish Stars Beyond Reach in time for a launch in May. So at that point we could either push back the date on that and try to finish the game by July, or we could set it aside and work on some other game. I was getting really excited by the idea that turned into Starward Rogue about that time, so it was suuuper attractive to want to just jump over and work on Starward and give up on SBR for the time being. SBR really wasn't going all that well at that time, although there were a lot of things that were headed in the right direction.
I am well aware of the sunk cost fallacy, and I considered that a lot when making my decision. I'm also very aware of the "grass is always greener" effect. A project that is in the ideation stage is always more exciting than one in the late slog period of development. After looking at finances and talking to staff and my wife and my parents and looking at various circumstances, I decided to keep going on SBR. Going for early July would actually give us loads of extra time to finish it up really well.
And Then Down From There
Obviously "we're almost done" kept not being true, because Stars Beyond Reach just kept not being good enough. I have over 160 hours playing the game, and it is a fun and intriguing game in quite a lot of ways. But it is just missing... something. Some of the mechanics just don't quite work. Enough things are just out of place that the whole isn't the pleasing masterpiece that I had hoped to create. Not even close. How does it stack up to other strategy games? That's impossible for me to state objectively. But the game was not (and still is not) at a state it needs to be for me to feel good about trying to sell it to you.
The Biggest Crossroads
October rolled around, and we were basically hitting a point where my projected income put us running out of funds just prior to the end of December. IF things went really smoothly with SBR, which seemed unlikely, then we might be able to release it into the maelstrom that is the November release schedule. That would have been suicidal, and so that would mean releasing SBR in the new year.
But that would be really putting ALL our eggs in that one basket, and if we couldn't release anything until January anyhow... well, that might just be enough time to make the game that went on to become Starward Rogue. Going for that, and taking on some debt to accelerate the project and thus get it out faster, seemed to make more sense. Even my fiscally conservative mother agreed. Having one project in a semi-finished state and another project finished in that timeframe just made so much more sense.
And I still stand by that! That was the right call, and actually everything went according to plan from then on.
Starward Rogue As A Project
The first thing I did was get Misery from our forums on board, because he's a whiz at the sort of enemy designs that make up the game. I also got up with my friend Zack, who is excellent as a level designer, to help work on room designs. I wound up pulling in over a dozen other people from November through January to work on a contract basis on aspects of the game. Actually it was probably the best work I've ever done as a project manager / producer. Man it was a hellish rush toward the end, and I was sleeping about 3-4 hours per night and then working the rest of the day for the last week or so toward release, but things all came together.
Oh, but one thing. Just a tiny thing. Because of this insane schedule, and the fact that the game was going to be coming hot off the presses right as release happened, there wasn't going to be time for advanced marketing, PR, awareness, etc. No launch reviews. Ugh! But to combat that, we did a really big promotion with a Bionic Dues giveaway with Humble Store in exchange for a lot of promotional awareness about Starward Rogue.
We knew starting in October that the marketing/PR side of this was going to be a nightmare and likely would harm our launch. But out of a number of bad options that I had in October (based on my own mistakes from earlier in that year), that was the least-bad. And then Erik came up with the idea for the Bionic Dues giveaway, and that was a really huge coup in terms of our ability to get launch-day press and so forth. It was a gamble, sure, but we stacked things in our favor as much as possible given the corner I painted us into with SBR.
And Here We Are
Welp, Starward Rogue is out now. I couldn't be more proud of it. It's such a cool game! It's possibly our best yet, and certainly better than anything other than AI War. Players seem to agree. Our beta testers had started out iffy in late November, and had really helped us shape this into something they were all hopping around excited about. Threads were popping up all over our forums about "I love this game!" and "Where did this come from?" and so on.
In the past when we have done a launch, generally we wind up on the Steam top sellers list in the top 40 at around the low side, and peak somewhere in the top 10. We've reached the #6 spot a couple of times, briefly, and if memory serves we might have very very briefly been #2 at one point. Usually we hang out in the teens for a few days and then drop off.
That's where we make our money. Other things, like positive reviews from some sites or youtube channels, cause a brief spike, but that's about it. Things taper off and we then have a low-grade income from the game for a while after that. Then the next income pops are pretty much discount promotions -- although that started not being the case in 2015 for us, so now that was questionable as well.
However, unfortunately, Starward Rogue has seen financially the worst launch for us except for Tidalis and Shattered Haven. Those two did worse (much worse), but we were not as large at that point. The Tidalis flop is what precipitated the 2010 money woes that were public, though. Shattered Haven was fortunately not really more than a disappointing blip in 2013, financially speaking (there are honestly people in our fanbase for whom that is their favorite Arcen title -- I know the steam reviews are "mostly negative" and I get that most people don't like the game, but it wasn't something that nobody could enjoy).
Anyway, Starward: we have mostly hung out in the 200s instead of in the teens, and mostly in the 250s at that, top-seller-chart-wise. We peaked, briefly, at #98. That lasted under 3 hours. Our clickthrough rate on our marketing run was over double the store-wide average, but it still ended early compared to what happened with TLF. I'm not sure why that was, but we were still getting other kinds of featuring, so there were some solid hits coming in.
What Didn't Happen
This was supposed to be a month of high earnings to recoup recent past losses, and to provide a nest egg that would support us as we finish up Stars Beyond Reach in a manner that we feel we actually want to release (there are some very heavy revisions that we have planned on that front). Instead, it looks like the company will be taking another loss for the month -- this one about $6k, give or take a little (final numbers are not in).
To put it another way: owwwww.
I look at the reviews and the player comments and so forth and I get so happy. I look at the sales numbers and... yeah. This is literally unprecedented for us. We've had rocky response and reasonable or poor sales. We've had good response and good sales. We've had poor response and poor sales, and mixed response and poor sales. What we've never had is awesome response and poor sales.
What Happens Now (Assuming Nothing Changes)
I'll have to pull another $30k or so out of my personal money, taking a hit on stock sales since the market is down. The LOC is pretty well maxed out. I'm not going to default on any debts (good lord I would never put myself in a position to do that), but I don't have any extra money to spend.
Based on the current income level, we will only be able to maintain a fulltime staff of two -- Keith and myself -- but I'll stretch it to three in order to keep our artist Blue on as well. We need an artist on staff. Everyone else, including Pablo, our awesome composer who has been with me from the start, gets laid off. If things don't improve, then after another month or three Blue also gets laid off.
Some of the contractors on Starward Rogue were originally fans and have now offered to donate some of their time to helping maintain the game post-launch and continue curating player content and creating some more content of their own, etc.
In the last two months we have had six people fulltime, four more with > 10 hours per week, and another seven with regularly-recurring work generally paid by the piece. That's the team it took in order to make Starward Rogue in such a short amount of time -- and it doesn't count voice actors or some one-off contract artists, etc. Most of that team was just on for some limited contracting in the first place, but seven of those have had a work relationship with us for at least a year (if not three or six years).
To some of them it's just a disappointment. To others it's the loss of a dream job. For two of them, this disruption comes at a time when they have new babies on the way. For Pablo, he's a new dad as of less than two months ago (his paternity leave is why there isn't more music in the Starward Rogue track list, but he is adding more since returning to work). On the flip side, and what I have to remind myself: nobody is dying, and most of them have spouses that either can or do work; and/or they have other job prospects beyond just Arcen.
But still. These people are my friends, my colleagues, and people whose livelihoods are my responsibility. I have made all the choices I have in good faith, and usually in lengthy consultation with the rest of them. But there's been a lot of trust that they put in me that I knew what the hell I was doing.
It just so happens that I may not know what the hell I am doing. Either I never understood the market as well as I thought I did, or the market changed while we had our heads in the sand developing SBR, or both. Whatever the case, it's something I deeply regret. The fact that they are all being so nice and understanding with me makes it all the worse, honestly.
Why Am I Telling You?
I don't know. I kinda thought that Starward Rogue was good enough that this would be a new chance to live life properly and not run around with my hair on fire all the time. Instead we have this gut punch.
I mean, obviously, I'm hoping that you'll tell all your friends and family and shout to the high heavens how much the game if you do. Nobody writes a post like this without hoping for some help, and it would be disingenuous for me to suggest otherwise. This post is definitely a request for help, if you feel that you want to give it.
It's very embarrassing for me to come back and do this a second time; that pretty much cements that as part of my identity in your mind, doesn't it? I'm now the guy who can't manage the finances of his company right. Well... so be it. There are many worse things to be. Someone who doesn't take a last-ditch opportunity to try and salvage his staff is one of them.
How Can You Help?
This is why I said "I don't know" in answer to the above question. Our problem seems to be one of exposure for Starward Rogue. Unless I am very much missing something, there doesn't seem to be any reason why it shouldn't be happily finding a smiling audience about now. If you have a way of helping get the word out about the game along with whatever your opinion of it is (if you think it sucks and want to tell people that, I guess that's certainly better than them not knowing at all).
Some of your wind up being inclined to start giving us monetary tips through paypal. And while that is certainly very much appreciated, that's kind of a "sprinkling water on a heavy blaze" sort of situation. In order for me to salvage staff at anything close to the levels we had in 2015, let alone what we've had recently, we need sustained sales from a wider audience -- an audience that I feel like the game would appeal to, if only they knew about it properly and actually bought it instead of wishlisting it.
"Give a man a fish," and all that. Not that we don't appreciate the fish, but if you give us money and then see us still have a massive layoff I imagine that's going to feel like a gut punch to you. So I mean... I'm really not wanting charity here.
If the game doesn't deserve to sell, then it doesn't deserve to sell, and that's the way it goes. In that case, then the appropriate thing that usually happens in a company is a layoff. Yay capitalism.
The only thing that I'm wanting is for the game to have a chance to actually find its audience, and for them to either support us or not by deciding to purchase the thing we have on offer for them. That's why we made this in the first place! (Aside from the fact we wanted to play it, I mean.) If that's simply not meant to be, as was the case with Shattered Haven or Tidalis, then so be it. But that's not at all the vibe I'm getting so far.
What About Stars Beyond Reach?
I've brought this up several times in this post, so I need to go ahead and address this game's status. Yes, we are still planning on releasing this in Q2 of this year. It will be undergoing a major overhaul of a lot of the low-level mechanics (but not the high-level spirit) under the direction of Keith, while I pretty much step back from the project (we can't have two head chefs and he's the one with a really good plan for the game that I'm really excited about).
I and the former-contractors now-volunteers will be maintaining Starward Rogue. I'll be doing playtesting and giving feedback on Stars Beyond Reach along with the other 250ish testers we have for that game. And I'll be working on another project on my own. I'm not needed on SBR in a fulltime capacity right now, and so far SR isn't showing signs that it can support me doing fulltime post-release content for it like I had hoped, so it's time for me to split my time with something new that will hopefully do a better job of sustaining our new tiny staff if that's what we shrink to.
In short, if the sole reason you care about the fate of our company is because you want to see Stars Beyond Reach become a reality, then please don't support us extra at the moment. That's a lot of pressure on SBR -- what if you don't like it? What if, god forbid, we just can't get it right and scrap it? None of that will be affected by what goes on with our staff-at-large anyhow at this point. SBR is in no way a hostage to our current circumstances.
Time To Wrap This Up
I don't have any rallying cry to close this, or anything like that. I'm exhausted, the whole team is, and right now we're feeling this really strange mixture of being very happy and proud and also being... a bit crushed. You might say "that's life," and you'd be right. You might point out that game companies big and small get shuttered every week, and you'd also be right. And we're not being shuttered.
But a lot of people I care about did a lot of hard work to bring to life something that I think you'll enjoy, and they're going to be losing their jobs in about half a week because of me. I figured I ought to at least give you a heads up.
Post by: Wingflier on January 28, 2016, 06:32:50 am
That's a lot of self-blame for something which I don't believe you're directly responsible for. You made the best decisions with the information you had at the time.
By all indications Starward Rogue should have been a knockout, it certainly has the chops for it. So what are you blaming yourself for, inability to predict the future?
In addition to that, you couldn't have known that the Steam store would change in such a way that would harm Indie developers and/or that Stars Beyond Reach would take 6 months longer than you anticipated. That happens to developers all the time, usually they just either get rushed by their producers, releasing a half-baked title, or they have the money to continue developing until it's finished which can take years or even, in some cases, over a decade.
As you mentioned in your post, Capitalism. Regardless of how many precautions you take, you'll never guarantee your financial future. I know it's difficult now but try to be positive, I think you guys will make a rebound just like last time and come back even stronger than before.
Post by: evilution on January 28, 2016, 06:38:56 am
Post by: x4000 on January 28, 2016, 06:41:37 am
I understand what you are saying about self blame, and you do have a point. That said, the wellbeing of this company and its staff are ultimately my responsibility, and I've not been able to maintain my end of things with this. While I don't blame myself for not being able to predict the future, I do take responsibility for the fact that in some cases I may have been bold where I should have been cautious, and in other times cautious where I should have been bold.
Making mistakes does not bother me. I'm not too fussed about it when I do it, or when someone around me has one. But no matter how you cut it, I have made a series of decisions over the last year and a half that has led to this. There are certain recurring patterns with projects that also show I am either overconfident or not properly learning from past mistakes as much as I'd like. There's not really room for me to be making errors like that.
I hope that this post didn't come off as overly self-important, because that's not how I mean it. But I do believe it's important to take responsibility for things when I do something wrong.
Post by: Wingflier on January 28, 2016, 07:01:53 am
Thanks for the kind words.Call me a Pragmatist, but it's easy to look at your mistakes in retrospect and see how silly they were. We are all hindsight oracles in that way.
I understand what you are saying about self blame, and you do have a point. That said, the wellbeing of this company and its staff are ultimately my responsibility, and I've not been able to maintain my end of things with this. While I don't blame myself for not being able to predict the future, I do take responsibility for the fact that in some cases I may have been bold where I should have been cautious, and in other times cautious where I should have been bold.
Making mistakes does not bother me. I'm not too fussed about it when I do it, or when someone around me has one. But no matter how you cut it, I have made a series of decisions over the last year and a half that has led to this. There are certain recurring patterns with projects that also show I am either overconfident or not properly learning from past mistakes as much as I'd like. There's not really room for me to be making errors like that.
I hope that this post didn't come off as overly self-important, because that's not how I mean it. But I do believe it's important to take responsibility for things when I do something wrong.
But I can't think of a single financial decision in the near decade this company has been around that anybody has questioned you on. Speaking from the perspective of the community, we all trust you wholeheartedly and I suspect your employees feel the same.
In the end you're the ship captain and we believe in you.
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on January 28, 2016, 07:11:04 am
Damn. Sorry Chris. But, I have faith you'll bounce back again. Just, don't let the self-blame get too extreme. Owning up is one thing but don't let it consume you.
Post by: Sounds on January 28, 2016, 07:11:25 am
Starward Rogue is a game that I initially put down to not my thing, yet the minute I got the controller (partially) working it has kinda sucked me in. I would have thought the audience for a stick shooter would be huge.
...gah I can't put it in words at the moment, except to say thanks for making another great game.
I'll put the word out wherever possible.
Post by: doctorfrog on January 28, 2016, 07:21:08 am
The games market is a harsh mistress. Starward Rogue is too good a game to be forsaken this quick, but these days, it does seem like if you don't blow up the entire world in the release week, that's what happens. You get mass-wishlisted into oblivion. >:(
I'll be honest, I don't have a million Twitter followers, I can't even get my closest friends to play a video game that doesn't involve them carrying an assault rifle, but I'll see what li'l I can do.
Post by: Matruchus on January 28, 2016, 07:47:56 am
Eitherway, hold out there.
Post by: nas1m on January 28, 2016, 08:07:42 am
I am glad that you will be able to continue in some capacity at least, though.
My hope is that SR will turn into another AIWar in terms of selling next to nothing at the start and then becoming a huge success by (albeit slow) word of mouth.
I wish you all the best.
Keep ya head up!
I believe in you and the rest of the team.
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2016, 08:19:16 am
Man I'm gutted to hear this. :'(
Starward Rogue is a game that I initially put down to not my thing, yet the minute I got the controller (partially) working it has kinda sucked me in. I would have thought the audience for a stick shooter would be huge.
...gah I can't put it in words at the moment, except to say thanks for making another great game.
I'll put the word out wherever possible.
That's the thing... I'm not a total whiz on these things, but one thing I do know is that no matter how good a game is or how popular the genre, you cant sell it if people just arent finding it. And for whatever reason, they arent.
And it's not like there hasnt been a lack of effort in getting the word out or anything, because there has been. But for whatever reason it's like the damn thing is invisible. Which would make more sense if it was a bad game. But even I, negative as I am, think the game is freaking fantastic. So it just doesnt make sense.
I mean, I look back on Tidalis and Shattered Haven, and when I think about those, I can see why they failed to an extent. Even I didn't get into those much (Haven being the one Arcen game I did test but wasnt exactly enthusiastic about) despite being a fan of Arcen otherwise. But this? People dont seem to be finding the issues with this one that they did with those. Quite the opposite. From what everyone says, apparently they almost universally think the game is freaking fantastic. So it just blows my mind that it's not selling ANYWAY.
And just.... uuuugh. I'm not even part of the main team, just a contractor/tester/fan/whatever, but I'm still frustrated as all hell. Nothing wrong with the game... but it just isnt going anywhere. And when I look at the stuff Chris has said here, and think about all the internal emails going back and forth over development, I honestly cant stop and think of any one point where it's like "Ok, this part might be where business mistakes were made" or something. I cant see this as being anyone's fault here. It might be absolutely incorrect but all of the blame I'm flinging around all lands on Steam itself, and generally the industry as a whole, for being what it is now. And, to a degree, on what it has caused consumers to become these days.
I mean, that bit with the wishlist, that.... that just bugs me. Because I *know* how some of those people are thinking. They're waiting for it to go down to like, 2 freaking dollars, because THAT is a fair price, not $11.99. This trend has been growing in the last couple of years, and it's a *nasty* one; it seemed to really get started on mobile stuff (where it's *really* bad right now) and now has infected PC stuff.
Obviously not all of them are thinking that, but at least some almost definitely are. And it's like.... how the hell do you combat that? What kind of PR or anything gets over not just that trend, but some other ones that have been plaguing the industry lately? It almost feels to me like just getting the word out isnt even enough anymore, which is infuriating. Like, you could do an AMAZING job at PR work for a given game, and just BECAUSE, it ends up not mattering.
Ugh.
That's about all I can say about that, really. I'll be honest, I'm not handling this all too well myself. I have anger issues on top of autism, and so at the moment my self-control is a bit cracked. Granted I admit I'm kinda cracked in a general sense most of the time anyway, but that's just naturally how I am. Right now, more than usual.
Anyway. I myself am not going anywhere. My living situation is unique and I dont need the money and never actually did. Dont care about that. So I'm just going to keep doing whatever I can. I just wish I could do more, but nope. But yeah, I'll still be around here to do whatever and I'll still moderate the forums (not about to let them damn bots in now). I just wish those that DO need the money werent getting blasted by all this.
And to Chris, and everyone else on the team.... really, this whole thing has been bloody incredible. I'd wanted to do this since I was a kid. Thought I'd never be able to, with my issues and limitations, most employers cant stand me (hell, this is the first REAL work I've done in.... years, aside from TLF's expansion). Finally, I've gotten to, because of you guys. And to come out in the end with such an amazing game.... incredible and surreal. You all have my undying gratitude for that. And as I said, I dont think it's really specifically anyone's fault here, what's going on with it. Everyone did what they set out to do: Make a great game. No matter what, everyone got THAT part right. Everything else just seems out of anyone's control.
Just dont give up yet, that's all I can say.
I can't even get my closest friends to play a video game that doesn't involve them carrying an assault rifle
I cant even say how much I sympathize with THIS one.
I could yammer about this game all I want to friends. They aint touching it (or anything else I think is interesting). It aint full of guns and blood, after all. I hate this industry these days sometimes, I really do.
Post by: Strix on January 28, 2016, 08:39:35 am
On top of that, it's been competing with Darkest Dungeon AND XCOM 2 launching in the same timeframe.
So there are some of the reasons it hasn't been doing well, but I think the worst reason of all is that from past experience with your other titles - A Valley Without Wind, Skyward Collapse - your genre mashups haven't been fantastic, so people are wary when you move into new genres. Even if the game is incredible. I myself was thinking I'd wait until it went on a steeper sale due to this, after I wasn't thrilled with AVWW.
That all said...I want this game to do well, because I love it. I love the twist with the time-stop mech, and I can't wait to see how Misery mode comes out so I can laugh in despair at how hard it is. Will there be the further promised content patches for this game?
Post by: amelith on January 28, 2016, 08:59:17 am
I think launching in January could be a factor? People tend to be short of money and perhaps less willing to take a risk. If so then the next couple of weeks are a big opportunity as people will start to get some money in again.
I do think you need some more publicity as I've not really seen anything about it. Maybe get it out to Twitch / YT streamers and more news sites, show off the game play and do some interviews? Can you even release a demo to convince those people on the fence? Apologies if you've been doing this stuff but if you have it's passed me by somehow.
Hope things improve for you, the game deserves to do better.
Post by: Matruchus on January 28, 2016, 09:12:25 am
Also continue to improve the game and it will have a positive effect on the games sales in the end. If you drop all support for it besides the bug fixes it won't resonate well with the potential player base.
I know this sounded pretty preachy for which I'm sorry but the market is as it is today and demands a lot more involvement.
Post by: PokerChen on January 28, 2016, 09:14:48 am
Will there be the further promised content patches for this game?On the content, it will somewhat depend on the contractor-volunteers and their own schedules. One of my wishlists would be to actually generate less branching and more web-like, tower-like, and ring-like RNG layouts for the rooms (all reduce backtracking of the current tendril layout) - this, however, will need engine work rather than XML work on the content-creator end.
I'm guessing paid DLC won't be possible given the sales, but the bits and pieces will happen over the next weeks.
Post by: Strix on January 28, 2016, 09:26:47 am
Will there be the further promised content patches for this game?On the content, it will somewhat depend on the contractor-volunteers and their own schedules. One of my wishlists would be to actually generate less branching and more web-like, tower-like, and ring-like RNG layouts for the rooms (all reduce backtracking of the current tendril layout) - this, however, will need engine work rather than XML work on the content-creator end.
I'm guessing paid DLC won't be possible given the sales, but the bits and pieces will happen over the next weeks.
That would be a cool addition, and not something I'm used to seeing in games like this.
For paid DLC, maybe try releasing new mechs (I read somewhere on here that they were thinking of adding at least three more?) as relatively cheap DLC, similar to how Dungeon of the Endless did it. I mean, in a sense the mechs equate to Dungeon of the Endless' pods/playstyle restrictions, which were incredibly cool.
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 28, 2016, 10:02:59 am
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2016, 10:09:56 am
Why does this seem so familiar? I hate reality sometimes.
Yeah, that's basically my thoughts too.
Some days, I just hate pretty much.... everything. This is one of those days.
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 28, 2016, 10:11:26 am
Post by: Sabouts on January 28, 2016, 10:25:32 am
Post by: cupogoodness on January 28, 2016, 10:27:37 am
I think the biggest issue is now that you have no marketing going on or any serious reviews of the game out there. On any of the game review sites. Looked at gamewatcher and the game is not to be found. Found a small news notice on Rock Paper Shotgun but no review. Same on other sites. You can't even find the game on http://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php and they essentially list all the Linux games released. You need to work on marketing I'm sorry to say. You just can't sell games today without any adds or reviews, etc. On the other side you are known for strategy games and not for roguelikes/shmup which might be a part of why this isn't selling. Also looking at the Bionic Dues giveaway - people just don't look who the developer of a game in a giveaway is. They just snatch it up and forget about it. At the end it all now hangs on the fact if the bigger reviewers like TB or Quill will play through it and make their rating.
Also continue to improve the game and it will have a positive effect on the games sales in the end. If you drop all support for it besides the bug fixes it won't resonate well with the potential player base.
I know this sounded pretty preachy for which I'm sorry but the market is as it is today and demands a lot more involvement.
It's been tough, as time/financial constraints made it so we couldn't really reach out to anyone until the morning of launch. It just wasn't ready to be shared publicly until the eleventh hour. That said, we're not sulking about, ~1,000 emails to various youtubers, twitch streamers and press have gone out between last Friday and today. And I'm still working through / adding to our list -- contacting and providing copies of the game to big names of course, but also specifically trying to reach those that play games within the same genres or that we've been compared to. EDIT: We also got approval earlier today from Twitch for an official listing of Starward Rogue, though it doesn't seem to have gone up quite yet.
I did miss submitting to Gaming on Linux and I'll make sure we do that this week, and keeping up the Arcen subreddit (as someone mentioned in another thread) would be good too -- but I wouldn't go as far as to say they'd make a significant difference for the game's sales at this point. I've invested much more time into the subreddit in the past and it made little difference for us (other than to take me away from what I believe are more pressing tasks/concerns). Meanwhile, Linux users make up 3% of Steam sales for the game at current. That's not much however you slice it, but for comparison's sake, Arcen's lifetime revenue from Linux purchases on all titles makes up just 1.4% of all our Steam revenue (though it's worth noting Linux builds for some of our earlier titles arrived much later than their respective Windows counterpart, and also that the figures don't account for sales outside of Steam). Regardless, Mac and Linux users have never made the difference in the past, and likely won't here either.
Post by: yllamana on January 28, 2016, 10:50:23 am
Post by: Matruchus on January 28, 2016, 11:03:48 am
It's been tough, as time/financial constraints made it so we couldn't really reach out to anyone until the morning of launch. It just wasn't ready to be shared publicly until the eleventh hour. That said, we're not sulking about, ~1,000 emails to various youtubers, twitch streamers and press have gone out between last Friday and today. And I'm still working through / adding to our list -- contacting and providing copies of the game to big names of course, but also specifically trying to reach those that play games within the same genres or that we've been compared to. EDIT: We also got approval earlier today from Twitch for an official listing of Starward Rogue, though it doesn't seem to have gone up quite yet.Oh, I know Linux or Mac won't make a dent in sales. Just meant it for more press exposure for the game. Anyway thanks for the answer. Very enlightening.
I did miss submitting to Gaming on Linux and I'll make sure we do that this week, and keeping up the Arcen subreddit (as someone mentioned in another thread) would be good too -- but I wouldn't go as far as to say they'd make a significant difference for the game's sales at this point. I've invested much more time into the subreddit in the past and it made little difference for us (other than to take me away from what I believe are more pressing tasks/concerns). Meanwhile, Linux users make up 3% of Steam sales for the game at current. That's not much however you slice it, but for comparison's sake, Arcen's lifetime revenue from Linux purchases on all titles makes up just 1.4% of all our Steam revenue (though it's worth noting Linux builds for some of our earlier titles arrived much later than their respective Windows counterpart, and also that the figures don't account for sales outside of Steam). Regardless, Mac and Linux users have never made the difference in the past, and likely won't here either.
Post by: Vacuity on January 28, 2016, 11:28:34 am
Curiously, it was actually the article on RPS on your 2010 woes that brought AI War to my attention, so I'd have to say, you're better off being open and honest about this stuff than hiding it away.
I don't know what else to say other than you all have my deepest sympathies.
Post by: garion333 on January 28, 2016, 01:30:56 pm
Post by: steelwing on January 28, 2016, 01:34:43 pm
Post by: Bluddy on January 28, 2016, 04:22:13 pm
In retrospect, given how fast the game was made, it probably needed a hard deadline a week before actual release, to allow for a week of marketing and synchronizing with the reviews.
Unfortunately, I can understand the mentality of people wishlisting the game because I have the same mentality. There's a whole lot of trash on Steam, bundles are constantly ongoing (making me question whether the next game I buy will soon be available for a few cents), and I already have a massive backlog. Time always works in my favor as a consumer. In order for me to actually pull the trigger, I have to really care about the developers, or be so excited about the game that I just can't imagine myself not playing it. That's probably not going to happen from Steam reviews alone.
My advice at this point is, don't let up. I don't think much needs to be done graphically anymore, so you can do most of the stuff yourself, but keep releasing updates and balance tweaks. The better the experience, the more youtubers will want to play this game over and over. You don't want a youtuber only playing this thing once -- that's not good enough IMO.
If you can work in a daily run, you can make a big deal about it (free huge update) and get some traction from that. Even if it's naive and doesn't eliminate cheaters, it gets a community going and that has massive impact. Unlike multiplayer games, daily runs don't need the players to be online at the same time, meaning that communities can live on for years with minimal support. Once you have the daily run in, you can come up with other synchronized runs that other games haven't gone with.
Unfortunately the goal these days is to go viral, which is an unfair expectation of any game. Fortunately, you have the right vehicle here with which to do it.
Post by: mrhanman on January 28, 2016, 04:35:10 pm
Post by: tombik on January 28, 2016, 04:42:43 pm
Although I was incapable of testing Starward Rogue properly because of bad performance on my PC, I still think it was a unique game from what I observed.
The thing with why there are so much wishlists but no sale is basically related with how frequent other Arcen games got bundled. If I knew that the title I spent 12 dollars will be bundled for 1 dollars with 2-3 other games in 1.5 year, this heavy depreciation stops me from buying games from that company. I know it is pretty convenient to sell in bulk "older" games, but most collectors like me have just enough games to play until something gets bundled.
So basically by bundling your games you are depreciating the average willingness to pay for your future games. That Bionic Dues move? That might had actually even hurt in that regard. "This company makes roguelikes to be given away for free."
I share the responsibility of the current state as being a cheapskate as I am. But that is the reality, and there are many who is worse than me. For many of your customers, your game is one of the 5000 thing to be purchased.
I was not trying to be harsh, just to give some intution about 9000 wishlist, no buy thing.
PS: I guess I have found out a missing word here: "I mean, obviously, I’m hoping that you’ll tell all your friends and family and shout to the high heavens how much the game if you do."
Post by: Apathetic on January 28, 2016, 04:47:52 pm
As a not, I'm personally guilty of having quite a few games on my steam wishlist that I don't intend to buy soon. I put them there so I don't need to go digging through steam to find something new when I actually have time to start playing a new game or something different. Currently I'm more limited by time than money for my gaming, so it doesn't make sense to buy games before I actually have time to play them...
On another tangent, going forward as possible it might be worth considering the Kickstarter model that I've seen become used recently. I've seen a few studios (InXile in particular) use kickstarter to as a presale platform so that they can keep all of their staff onboard and don't need to risk losing talent inbetween projects. For Arcen, this might be a good way to get the word out about future projects and potentially get some idea of what the total revenue will be for that game.
Best of luck to everyone going forward, Starward Rogue really is a fun game!
Post by: ET3D on January 28, 2016, 04:51:31 pm
Two thoughts:
Is it possible for a dev to set up a free Steam weekend? Or is it for Valve to decide? You need to get more people to check out the game, and that would be one way.
The other thing is the price, at $11.99 and $10.79 after a 10% discount it's just over the psychological $9.99 barrier. I think it's a bad place to be.
Post by: Bluddy on January 28, 2016, 04:55:17 pm
As a not, I'm personally guilty of having quite a few games on my steam wishlist that I don't intend to buy soon. I put them there so I don't need to go digging through steam to find something new when I actually have time to start playing a new game or something different.
That's a good point. Wishlists are misleading, because they're more of a bookmark than a real desire to buy the game. I'm not sure it's a useful statistic.
Post by: Aklyon on January 28, 2016, 05:02:23 pm
Post by: Pepisolo on January 28, 2016, 05:22:39 pm
As for the future, I will still be working on the game on a volunteer basis, of course, in conjunction with all the amazing modders on the forum who have already provided some fantastic content, in order to keep making the game even more kick-ass. Hopefully in time we can grow the fanbase as people start realizing how much fun the game is.
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 28, 2016, 06:47:33 pm
Post by: Breach on January 28, 2016, 07:06:54 pm
I will say that the lack of marketing must really have hurt you a bit. I only found out about Starward Rogue when the Humble Store Bionic Dues giveaway started, I clicked through to the Arcen catalogue just to review all the classics and saw Starward Rogue and thought "...that seems unfamiliar, is this an expansion pack or very old game?" To my shock it was entirely new and that was the first I've heard of it. I don't even recall an email from the Arcen forums, either on release or about beta testing! Just an email to all forum users would have done a great deal of good I think, anything to spread publicity. You can count on the faithful to spread the good word in any case, if only if it's about a new idea for a game that's in development so at least the game is on people's radar and it's not just skipped over when they see it.
Again, best of luck to everyone affected and I sincerely hope Arcen survive long into the future.
Post by: GiantPotato on January 28, 2016, 07:31:11 pm
I'm starting to think I don't understand the games market either, but maybe that's because it doesn't make sense.
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 28, 2016, 07:32:37 pm
Post by: dday007 on January 28, 2016, 07:58:32 pm
It kinda feels like unless TotalBiscuit covers an indie game, you're screwed. :/
TotalBiscut's having problems with cancer right now. You won't see him review games much, even if he did give glowing reviews to The Last Federation and played a part in its success.
Actually, I feel that other youtubers like NorthernLion ,TearsofGrace, and Vinesauce could give you a lot of exposure if someone like TotalBiscuit isn't available. Northernlion is a chill guy who reviews indie games while playing The Binding of Issac: Afterbirth (abbreviated to BoI). He's the most likely IMHO to go along with reviewing it and you're getting attention from the same audience as those who play BoI. TearsofGrace will somehow make your game funny just by editing a video of it. Vinesauce has his own little microcosm, and he usually tries a game at least once. I watch these guys constantly and this is coming from a guy who stays away from obnoxious youtube personas.
There are some other youtubers mentioned in reddit that play games from a similar genre (roguelike bullet hells):
https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/3kjvgm/binding_of_isaac_youtubers/?ref=search_posts (https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/3kjvgm/binding_of_isaac_youtubers/?ref=search_posts)
https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearThrone/comments/3nnkou/good_youtuber_to_watch/?ref=search_posts (https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearThrone/comments/3nnkou/good_youtuber_to_watch/?ref=search_posts)
I can't do all your research for you. But it should be a start as to who you should contact if you want to cater to those who stream games in the same genre.
I do want to point out though that if you do give out review copies that you emphasize to these people that they can change the difficulty. Some of these people aren't used to actual bullet hells and are leaning more towards the roguelike part of the equation. I don't want a streamer to not have the reflexes for it and then put the game in a bad light due to a misunderstanding. I find while Arcen games are experimental and great, their UI could use some work and sometimes some polish is needed. If you can't get them right away with the gameplay, the streamers(and therefore their viewers) will think that the game is unfinished when in reality it's the way you guys roll. I like the programmer aesthetic, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.
That's my two cents on the whole business. I don't usually go on forums, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already.
Post by: Tomasdk on January 28, 2016, 08:10:36 pm
Either way, I wish you the best of luck, you managed to get out of a similar situation before, I'm sure you can do it again. :)
Post by: cupogoodness on January 28, 2016, 08:15:13 pm
Actually, I feel that other youtubers like NorthernLion ,TearsofGrace, and Vinesauce could give you a lot of exposure if someone like TotalBiscuit isn't available. Northernlion is a chill guy who reviews indie games while playing The Binding of Issac: Afterbirth (abbreviated to BoI). He's the most likely IMHO to go along with reviewing it and you're getting attention from the same audience as those who play BoI. TearsofGrace will somehow make your game funny just by editing a video of it. Vinesauce has his own little microcosm, and he usually tries a game at least once. I watch these guys constantly and this is coming from a guy who stays away from obnoxious youtube personas.
There are some other youtubers mentioned in reddit that play games from a similar genre (roguelike bullet hells):
https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/3kjvgm/binding_of_isaac_youtubers/?ref=search_posts (https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/3kjvgm/binding_of_isaac_youtubers/?ref=search_posts)
https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearThrone/comments/3nnkou/good_youtuber_to_watch/?ref=search_posts (https://www.reddit.com/r/NuclearThrone/comments/3nnkou/good_youtuber_to_watch/?ref=search_posts)
I can't do all your research for you. But it should be a start as to who you should contact if you want to cater to those who stream games in the same genre.
I do want to point out though that if you do give out review copies that you emphasize to these people that they can change the difficulty. Some of these people aren't used to actual bullet hells and are leaning more towards the roguelike part of the equation. I don't want a streamer to not have the reflexes for it and then put the game in a bad light due to a misunderstanding. I find while Arcen games are experimental and great, their UI could use some work and sometimes some polish is needed. If you can't get them right away with the gameplay, the streamers(and therefore their viewers) will think that the game is unfinished when in reality it's the way you guys roll. I like the programmer aesthetic, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.
That's my two cents on the whole business. I don't usually go on forums, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already.
Thanks for this, we have reached to NorthernLion already, and I'll get an email out now to the other two you mention. We've suggested playing around with the various mechs and difficulty levels in every email we've sent out, good to go there.
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2016, 08:24:45 pm
The guy is no stranger to difficulty, roguelikes, bullet-hell, and is absolutely freaking hilarious. Never ragequits or seems to get angry at anything either, which is a huge plus with stuff like this. Always good when you can get someone that typically seems to genuinely be having a good time.
Big audience that is mostly used to Nuclear Throne, but he tries and often continues playing other games too, like Deathstate, which is another roguelike with some bullet-hell to it (plays very, very differently from this one though).
Post by: NichG on January 28, 2016, 09:37:17 pm
Weird point #2, I was curious about the sales so I Googled 'steamspy starward rogue'. Nothing. Instead it got changed to 'star wars'. So I went to Steam Spy directly and scrolled. Nothing. I had to specifically search for it, at which point I did find it.
Could this be a technical issue on Steam's side?
Post by: Matruchus on January 28, 2016, 09:44:59 pm
Weird point #2, I was curious about the sales so I Googled 'steamspy starward rogue'. Nothing. Instead it got changed to 'star wars'. So I went to Steam Spy directly and scrolled. Nothing. I had to specifically search for it, at which point I did find it.It wasn't just Steam. Youtube had about five days the issue of not being to able to see the difference between Starward Rogue and Starwars Rogue one. It automatically changed the description to Star Wars. I guess this could be one of the reasons why people couldn't find reviews or gameplay videos there.
Could this be a technical issue on Steam's side?
Post by: Bluddy on January 28, 2016, 10:25:34 pm
This entire thing was kind of strange. I normally check Steam daily and I didn't see SWR pop up there. Instead, I heard about it on a thread about Bionic Dues on Giant in the Playground. Meanwhile Steam is running various indie visual novels in the main bar, so this isn't AAA priority or diverging. I've bought one VN but several Arcen games, and I'm on Linux which usually heavily filters towards indie, so I'd expect SWR to get in through 'like other things you play' Weird point #1
I saw SR on the Steam main page once, and then never again.
BTW, while we're talking about marketing advice, Chris should really get on the twitter bandwagon. A lot of people follow devs on twitter nowadays. I don't mean the company -- that's a separate twitter account, and it appears to me that people prefer following the actual devs. Twitter is much easier to communicate on than a dev blog, and it's a relatively easy way to get access to potentially thousands of people. When you release a title, a dev who's friends with you will retweet, giving you access to all of his fans, etc. It's a shame not to make good use of this marketing platform.
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 28, 2016, 11:01:31 pm
but I agree with those that said that its due to the lack of pr before this game came out if I didn't actively follow this forum and been involved in the beta testing of this game I wouldn't have know it existed on the day of release I didn't even see it on the front page which weirded me out a bit
but yes I definitely agree with hitting northern lion up on this also may I suggest nerd cubed? the games he covers are pretty random but he's a very intelligent man and would do this game justice I think
also Chris acnolging(I know I spelt that in absolute shite way but my brain has a mental block of the real spelling of this word at the moment) your mistakes that you may or may have not made is okay as long as you don't let that consume you and forget about all the wise decision making you've been doing(weird grammar I know but I cant think of a better way to do that sentence)
I intend to buy this game and send it to a couple of my friends
also I wish the best of luck to those poor saps who are going to lose their jobs if things continue like this i hope you manage to survive ):.
Post by: Shrugging Khan on January 28, 2016, 11:14:28 pm
Sh!t sh!t sh!t.
This is pretty much the last thing I'd ever wanted to have heard about you guys, maybe short of you all having been run over.
I can't say that I enjoyed any Arcen title after AI War, but what you've done as developers still gets my admiration any day - I very much wish that you can stick around, no matter how often things go wrong.
Please don't give up, either Arcen core team or temporary Arcen staff!
Post by: cupogoodness on January 28, 2016, 11:17:14 pm
The main one I could emphasize is SleepCycles.
The guy is no stranger to difficulty, roguelikes, bullet-hell, and is absolutely freaking hilarious. Never ragequits or seems to get angry at anything either, which is a huge plus with stuff like this. Always good when you can get someone that typically seems to genuinely be having a good time.
Big audience that is mostly used to Nuclear Throne, but he tries and often continues playing other games too, like Deathstate, which is another roguelike with some bullet-hell to it (plays very, very differently from this one though).
Already contacted SleepCycles, but will send a follow-up. Also found out we already contacted TearofGrace and have followed-up. Sent to Vine Sauce as well.
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 28, 2016, 11:24:28 pm
have you done nerd cubed? I think heed do this game justice personally.The main one I could emphasize is SleepCycles.
The guy is no stranger to difficulty, roguelikes, bullet-hell, and is absolutely freaking hilarious. Never ragequits or seems to get angry at anything either, which is a huge plus with stuff like this. Always good when you can get someone that typically seems to genuinely be having a good time.
Big audience that is mostly used to Nuclear Throne, but he tries and often continues playing other games too, like Deathstate, which is another roguelike with some bullet-hell to it (plays very, very differently from this one though).
Already contacted SleepCycles, but will send a follow-up. Also found out we already contacted TearofGrace and have followed-up. Sent to Vine Sauce as well.
Post by: Tolc on January 28, 2016, 11:32:32 pm
Can only agree about the missing PR, though. Just listened to TotalBiscuit's Co-optional podcast from last week and was wondering why it didn't come up in the "releases" section...
Another youtuber to contact, if you haven't already, is bisnap: https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap (https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap) He has 100k subs and mostly plays Binding of Isaac nowadays, so he would be a natural fit for SR. Add MathasGames to that as well: https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames (https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames)
Still rooting for you! Keep up the fight for good games!
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 28, 2016, 11:39:41 pm
Aw, man...I was so rooting for you and a successful launch last week. That sucks big time. :'(it didn't?! I hope todays podcast gives star ward some attention because I think total biscuit would love this game if he was actually aware of it I'm convinced at the moment that this problem has come from the lack of pr.
Can only agree about the missing PR, though. Just listened to TotalBiscuit's Co-optional podcast from last week and was wondering why it didn't come up in the "releases" section...
Another youtuber to contact, if you haven't already, is bisnap: https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap (https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap) He has 100k subs and mostly plays Binding of Isaac nowadays, so he would be a natural fit for SR. Add MathasGames to that as well: https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames (https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames)
Still rooting for you! Keep up the fight for good games!
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on January 28, 2016, 11:39:57 pm
Twitter isn't more reliable than a blog. If anything, it's less.This entire thing was kind of strange. I normally check Steam daily and I didn't see SWR pop up there. Instead, I heard about it on a thread about Bionic Dues on Giant in the Playground. Meanwhile Steam is running various indie visual novels in the main bar, so this isn't AAA priority or diverging. I've bought one VN but several Arcen games, and I'm on Linux which usually heavily filters towards indie, so I'd expect SWR to get in through 'like other things you play' Weird point #1
I saw SR on the Steam main page once, and then never again.
BTW, while we're talking about marketing advice, Chris should really get on the twitter bandwagon. A lot of people follow devs on twitter nowadays. I don't mean the company -- that's a separate twitter account, and it appears to me that people prefer following the actual devs. Twitter is much easier to communicate on than a dev blog, and it's a relatively easy way to get access to potentially thousands of people. When you release a title, a dev who's friends with you will retweet, giving you access to all of his fans, etc. It's a shame not to make good use of this marketing platform.
Post by: Professor Paul1290 on January 28, 2016, 11:40:15 pm
I do have a "view from the outside" I really want to voice on this.
Granted, I only have the limited view of how Arcen works internally through the window you've offered and I hope I'm not spouting too much ignorance, but I'm going to really critical and I'm probably going to say some things you probably already know or discovered yourself, so I apologize if I'm being aggravating because of that.
I feel it has to be said that some aspects of Arcen Games have not made sense in the context of the the larger game dev scene for a while now:
- "Look and feel quality" has been low relative to team size. Yes you put out more games, but games are judged more individually than other software and are judged by their covers.
- Extremely (perhaps detrimentally) rapid release schedule driven by "burn rate". I can't think of any other dev that has to put out games as fast as Arcen to stay afloat and while I appreciate Arcen discipline and workflow, to some extent I suspect there are reasons for that.
- Lack of time to do "slow" and "soft" marketing. Like the above, this is also related to the fact you have to put out games so quickly that they never get a chance to build up much visibility via videos, screenshots, blog posts, and the like. Many games don't even build hype in the time an Arcen game is in dev!
Arcen's games are time and time again criticized for numerous "softer elements" which are the sorts of things that suffer under short dev cycles even if the quality of the code and assets being put out are sound. These are things tend to be vague topics like the "look and feel", aesthetic themes, how satisfying the sounds are, and various minor moment to moment elements that are difficult to evaluate and tweak on an accelerated schedule. Sure Arcen's assets have been getting better and are pretty good when evaluated individually, but how they're being applied has been lacking.
Many other game dev teams of similar size and budget seem to have these aspects come along more naturally and effortlessly, and I think that is because their games have more time to "sit and be evaluated" while they are being developed so they're not struggling with "why does this feel slightly wrong" as much. Ironically, I think that's because they're less efficient and slower than Arcen and thus don't have to address that problem as directly and intentionally.
While I do appreciate Arcen's discipline and aggressive workflow and believe that they're your biggest strengths and that if anything those qualities should be retained, at the same time I do feel that you need to somehow carve yourself room, both financially and planning wise, to adopt a more sensible pace of development.
The thing is you keep having to turn out games within a limited time frame due to financial pressure, which applies to most game devs sure but very few have had to put out games at the rate you do and that seems like the indirect source of a lot of issues.
While I do feel it's unfortunate that you're having to lay some people off, I would suspect a "slower burn rate" may be beneficial in the long run.
Perhaps you've come to the same conclusion already, but maybe Arcen Games should be just Chris and Keith.
Again, you probably already thought about a lot this or maybe you disagree, and I apologize if I'm being aggravating, but that's my "view from the outside" as another software developer and I hope at the very least it helps lend perspective.
Post by: Tolc on January 29, 2016, 12:07:02 am
Aw, man...I was so rooting for you and a successful launch last week. That sucks big time. :'(it didn't?! I hope todays podcast gives star ward some attention because I think total biscuit would love this game if he was actually aware of it I'm convinced at the moment that this problem has come from the lack of pr.
Can only agree about the missing PR, though. Just listened to TotalBiscuit's Co-optional podcast from last week and was wondering why it didn't come up in the "releases" section...
Another youtuber to contact, if you haven't already, is bisnap: https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap (https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap) He has 100k subs and mostly plays Binding of Isaac nowadays, so he would be a natural fit for SR. Add MathasGames to that as well: https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames (https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames)
Still rooting for you! Keep up the fight for good games!
Haven't watched it yet, but I don't think it will. You'd have to bring it to his attention directly (which you can't do as a non-dev as he doesn't take requests). Other than that, he's very much into Darkest Dungeon, Warframe and XCOM2 at the moment, so I don't know about coverage of other games than those. A shame really. SR might not be for him, but he likes Arcen as a dev so he would probably make a video if he could.
Post by: cupogoodness on January 29, 2016, 12:25:35 am
have you done nerd cubed? I think heed do this game justice personally.The main one I could emphasize is SleepCycles.
The guy is no stranger to difficulty, roguelikes, bullet-hell, and is absolutely freaking hilarious. Never ragequits or seems to get angry at anything either, which is a huge plus with stuff like this. Always good when you can get someone that typically seems to genuinely be having a good time.
Big audience that is mostly used to Nuclear Throne, but he tries and often continues playing other games too, like Deathstate, which is another roguelike with some bullet-hell to it (plays very, very differently from this one though).
Already contacted SleepCycles, but will send a follow-up. Also found out we already contacted TearofGrace and have followed-up. Sent to Vine Sauce as well.
Sorry, didn't see this before. Yes we did, I just followed-up thanks to your reminder. I'll start going full follow-up mode now, was going to wait until early next week, but timing is out the window at this point.
Aw, man...I was so rooting for you and a successful launch last week. That sucks big time. :'(
Can only agree about the missing PR, though. Just listened to TotalBiscuit's Co-optional podcast from last week and was wondering why it didn't come up in the "releases" section...
Another youtuber to contact, if you haven't already, is bisnap: https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap (https://www.youtube.com/user/bisnap) He has 100k subs and mostly plays Binding of Isaac nowadays, so he would be a natural fit for SR. Add MathasGames to that as well: https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames (https://www.youtube.com/user/MathasGames)
Still rooting for you! Keep up the fight for good games!
Already contacted and have now followed-up with both, thanks for this reminder. Hope you guys are seeing a pattern here, we have been trying, the timeline has just sucked.
Post by: Billick on January 29, 2016, 12:43:04 am
Post by: garpu on January 29, 2016, 01:28:08 am
Quote
On another tangent, going forward as possible it might be worth considering the Kickstarter model that I've seen become used recently. I've seen a few studios (InXile in particular) use kickstarter to as a presale platform so that they can keep all of their staff onboard and don't need to risk losing talent inbetween projects. For Arcen, this might be a good way to get the word out about future projects and potentially get some idea of what the total revenue will be for that game.
I know, Chris, that you're worried people won't like SBR, but I think you've got enough of a loyal fanbase that a kickstarter for SBR might make a lot of sense. If it retails for $20, I know I wouldn't mind kicking in a bit more. The goodies given out can be things that don't cost y'all any more time/money, either. (Signed promotional material, authentic pocket lint, in-game goodies, soundtracks, a "making of" video, a multiplayer game session with y'all in AI War, etc.) Even without goodies, I think people would chip in.
Post by: Rythe on January 29, 2016, 01:42:09 am
And since we're tossing around names of youtube types, let me offer AngryCentaurGaming (https://www.youtube.com/user/AngryCentaurGaming) which I haven't seen mentioned in the thread yet.
He's quite good with his reviews and makes an entertaining listen. Also, not as angry as the name suggests. :P
I started getting the itch to check back in here, but really only noticed the launch when RPS did its short blurb on Starward Rogue, myself.
Oh, and really sorry to hear about the loss of those jobs. Always hard, always a hit, and far too common in the industry.
Post by: Cyborg on January 29, 2016, 01:42:48 am
Everyone comes in here and gives their two cents worth why things turned out the way they did. I can do that too, but I doubt that's what anyone needs right now. You are the company that made the games, made the millions, so you can decide what your analysis is.
Remember how awful things felt a few years ago? And somehow it got better. It's awful now, it will get better. How do I know? Because nobody died.
Post by: Wingflier on January 29, 2016, 02:33:38 am
http://www.pcgamer.com/arcen-lays-off-nearly-all-staff-despite-successful-starward-rogue-launch/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0
This post is getting some pretty heavy media attention now.
Post by: Darloth on January 29, 2016, 02:36:23 am
I can only give you my experience - I heard about this game via Arcen's website, and only via that until today (where there's an RPS article about this article).
Originally watching the videos and things I wasn't particularly impressed, but I also got the impression there'd be somewhat of a long testing phase for this one too, so I just left it for a while.
It's since released, and as it has such excellent reviews from everyone who's actually played it, and because I liked similar games, I've gone ahead and bought it and I'll give it a go (so there is one more drop in the bucket for you at least), but I can certainly second the lack of marketing and information - I thought it was still in the pipeline until I find out it's released (and did terribly) without me even noticing, and I had even seen it before. If I like it I'll be sure you write you a steam review.
Hope things improve somehow though!
Edit: First impressions, it feels a lot better to play than the videos for it look. The guns and explosions and things have a properly shooty feel rather than the slightly unreal floatiness in TLF.
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 29, 2016, 02:38:47 am
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/01/28/ai-war-devs-arcen-layoffs/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rockpapershotgun%2Fsteam+%28Rock%2C+Paper%2C+Shotgun%3A+Steam+RSS%29hu that's interesting I wonder if this will boost sales? would be a bit weird if it did but I could why.
http://www.pcgamer.com/arcen-lays-off-nearly-all-staff-despite-successful-starward-rogue-launch/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0
This post is getting some pretty heavy media attention now.
Post by: Bluddy on January 29, 2016, 02:40:20 am
I know, Chris, that you're worried people won't like SBR, but I think you've got enough of a loyal fanbase that a kickstarter for SBR might make a lot of sense.
Kickstarter is very expensive to run. I do think though, that Early Access would really work for Arcen. They're some of the most dedicated devs, and Chris constantly says how he wants to put more into the games he released. This is exactly what Early Access buyers want. With the right base game, I think Early Access would be perfect.
Here's a completely wild idea. The fear with going Early Access is that it would weaken the actual launch, right? Well, SR had a launch, and it was pretty weak. How about, in a month or so, starting Starward Rogue Forever in Early Access -- an expanded version of SR. Chris said he had a bunch of ideas he couldn't implement in time. Buyers of SRF would get SR for 'free', as well as the expanded game. That inflow of cash would really help with development, reducing the risk, and hopefully allowing Arcen to maintain some staff. In the meantime, people out there would be trying out SR, and hopefully increasing word of mouth. Finally, you'll hopefully have another attempt at a full launch.
In the worst case, SRF wouldn't be finished, but buyers would still have SR + some updates.
I think this business model could really work for Arcen. It's sort of a cushion against releases going bad. So long as the base game is good enough, it could be sustainable.
What say you, Chris?
Post by: Soupinator on January 29, 2016, 03:14:43 am
Post by: Vacuity on January 29, 2016, 03:52:50 am
authentic pocket lint,OHBOYOHBOYOHBOYOHBOYOHBOY!
Take my money now!
*Throws wallet at screen*
Edit: As an aside, if there's a question of simply getting some money in the bank asap, would a mini-expansion to AI War not be the best combination of time investment/risk?
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 29, 2016, 04:06:44 am
I think what happened was a mix of really bad timing and not well marketing.
Arcen Games is not well known. It is more like a secret society for secret players that like secret games that are not from this world. Of course it has some popularity but the problem is, it keeps this popularity in a rather small range.
Arcen games needs a lot more marketing (I know this does not come cheap but marketing is evry important about a game), so everyone knows already the game before it's out. Know Darkest Dungeon? Really EVERYONE knows this game because it was in all popular gamin news and prominent youtubers talked about it. Staward Rogue never had this much attention. While you guys work really eagerly on the project itself, you guys forget to show what you did the whole time.
The other thing you hit was the timing. You know what happened? Holidays happened. CHRISTMAS happened. And that all before your release. The majority of players has spent their money during this time and currently are burnt out to buy another games, even cheap ones.
Not to mention that people now don't have much time at their hand anyway to play something. Only people that are really interested int he product or are true fans of the company will buy it. Hoever, the fact of the bad marketing strikes again and no one new about the game until it launched. And the launch was rather "quiet", no one noticed that it even happened.
A long time the game wasn't even shown on Steams Storefront under"2newly released" titles (I think for an entire day it didn't show up).
I hope sales will go up but to be honest, you guys REALLY need to change your marketing politics right now.
Starward Rogue deserves the attention it needs right now because it is probably the best game you have done so far. Unlike AI War, which is your most successful game, this game is also intuitive and aviable to a bigger playerbase because you don't have to spent hours only for learning the game itself.
Post by: Ventifer on January 29, 2016, 05:20:35 am
Post by: cupogoodness on January 29, 2016, 06:58:52 am
And since we're tossing around names of youtube types, let me offer AngryCentaurGaming (https://www.youtube.com/user/AngryCentaurGaming) which I haven't seen mentioned in the thread yet.Thanks! I've sent him a key.
He's quite good with his reviews and makes an entertaining listen. Also, not as angry as the name suggests. :P
Two more youtubers I would recommend if you haven't talked to them are Northernlion and RocklesSmile. Northernlion is rather funny and plays mainly binding of isaac and some nuclear throne. RockleeSmile is also rather entertaining and tends to look at indie games that are lesser known but he also enjoys binding of isaac quite a lot too. Both have a decent following too.Chris contacted Northernlion, so he'll need to follow-up with him tomorrow or Monday. Already contacted Nick (RockLeeSmile), but haven't heard back. Just sent a follow-up.
Post by: Joubarbe on January 29, 2016, 10:21:41 am
Post by: nas1m on January 29, 2016, 01:33:29 pm
This idea actually does sound very intriguing to me.I know, Chris, that you're worried people won't like SBR, but I think you've got enough of a loyal fanbase that a kickstarter for SBR might make a lot of sense.
Kickstarter is very expensive to run. I do think though, that Early Access would really work for Arcen. They're some of the most dedicated devs, and Chris constantly says how he wants to put more into the games he released. This is exactly what Early Access buyers want. With the right base game, I think Early Access would be perfect.
Here's a completely wild idea. The fear with going Early Access is that it would weaken the actual launch, right? Well, SR had a launch, and it was pretty weak. How about, in a month or so, starting Starward Rogue Forever in Early Access -- an expanded version of SR. Chris said he had a bunch of ideas he couldn't implement in time. Buyers of SRF would get SR for 'free', as well as the expanded game. That inflow of cash would really help with development, reducing the risk, and hopefully allowing Arcen to maintain some staff. In the meantime, people out there would be trying out SR, and hopefully increasing word of mouth. Finally, you'll hopefully have another attempt at a full launch.
In the worst case, SRF wouldn't be finished, but buyers would still have SR + some updates.
I think this business model could really work for Arcen. It's sort of a cushion against releases going bad. So long as the base game is good enough, it could be sustainable.
What say you, Chris?
Post by: Cinth on January 29, 2016, 01:36:04 pm
This idea actually does sound very intriguing to me.I know, Chris, that you're worried people won't like SBR, but I think you've got enough of a loyal fanbase that a kickstarter for SBR might make a lot of sense.
Kickstarter is very expensive to run. I do think though, that Early Access would really work for Arcen. They're some of the most dedicated devs, and Chris constantly says how he wants to put more into the games he released. This is exactly what Early Access buyers want. With the right base game, I think Early Access would be perfect.
Here's a completely wild idea. The fear with going Early Access is that it would weaken the actual launch, right? Well, SR had a launch, and it was pretty weak. How about, in a month or so, starting Starward Rogue Forever in Early Access -- an expanded version of SR. Chris said he had a bunch of ideas he couldn't implement in time. Buyers of SRF would get SR for 'free', as well as the expanded game. That inflow of cash would really help with development, reducing the risk, and hopefully allowing Arcen to maintain some staff. In the meantime, people out there would be trying out SR, and hopefully increasing word of mouth. Finally, you'll hopefully have another attempt at a full launch.
In the worst case, SRF wouldn't be finished, but buyers would still have SR + some updates.
I think this business model could really work for Arcen. It's sort of a cushion against releases going bad. So long as the base game is good enough, it could be sustainable.
What say you, Chris?
Sounds to much like AVVW 1/2 to me.
Post by: nas1m on January 29, 2016, 01:50:41 pm
Sounds to much like AVVW 1/2 to me.In what sense? I don't understand tbh.
How was Valley 2 in Early Access?
Or AVWW for that matter?
(aside from the long Beta period - I"m not sure here actually, that's when I got on the Arcen bandwagon)
I think trying a "real", Steam-style Early Access might actually be a good idea since it seems to play toward Arcen's strengths (community involvement, rapid release cycles,...) and the "you only got one launch" point really seems to loose a lot of merit with regard to SR.
Bluddy makes a fairly convincing case in my book.
Post by: Cinth on January 29, 2016, 01:56:50 pm
Post by: Matruchus on January 29, 2016, 02:51:27 pm
As for Starward Rogue I don't know. I certainly am doing what I can for people to get to know the game while its not helping that the drm-free release is not yet up on Humble. Maybe you could try resubmitting it to gog now that we got the votes up - since its in the top of most voted for games of the week there?
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 29, 2016, 02:52:33 pm
Post by: Captain Jack on January 29, 2016, 10:05:17 pm
So! Here we are a week after Arcen's worst selling, best quality release ever. Shit sux. Chris, Pablo, Keith, Blue, Erik, Quinn, Cath and any of the full timers I missed, I am so sorry it came to this. :'( Misery, Pepsisolo and the rest of the contractors, thanks for your work, the game wouldn't be what it is without you.
I've been trying to write this post since the thread went up, but what I think is second most important to say (first is above) keeps changing. I'm glad that you're going to move forward with both SBR and SR. I hope that you manage to turn them both into successes, because they're great. And I think you CAN turn SR into a success like AI War, but you're going to need to treat it like AI War.
You mentioned that things in the indie gaming business are starting to feel a lot more like 2009. There's a reason for that: indie gaming is experiencing a market correction that will end when enough indie developers have gone out of business to balance the supply of new indie games with the demand for new indie games. Jeff Vogel at Spiderweb Software (http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-indie-bubble-revisited-or-are-we.html) has written about this a few times and he's on the money. Worth a read since it captures the state of the market as a whole, but it's not the immediate problem.
That is: no one knew about Starward Rogue. TLF did well, and people are still interested in SBR. That's no accident, it's directly correlated with how much you talked up those games during development. You've got the visibility and reputation and a number of major outlets and public figures who'll spread the word about your games when you provide the material. This can still happen with Starward Rogue. Start talking about the game. Write up the backstory, the mechs, the design process, interview the contractors and volunteers, post links on reddit and do some streams. It has to be semi-regular and consistent, and on the blog so that more than the core fans see it.
But why? Like the dark ages of 2009 should not the game either rise as it finds its audience and as the updates come, or fall? Problem: your direct competitors are numerous and they're throwing around all kinds of marketing. SR's battle is staying relevant, and it won't be if the only ones who see progress are the players. It will be slow. Remember how many years and expansions it took for AI War to really take off? You're looking at that here. But it needs a base before it can get to that point, and the base is as much your talking up the product as it is the product itself. When your, Chris, share your excitement, the community responds.
So from now on no more stealth releases! No more stealth expansions! Secret plans are all well and good except when you have to sell them at the end. :)
Post by: chemical_art on January 30, 2016, 02:12:25 am
Post by: Castruccio on January 30, 2016, 02:16:11 am
I feel I came far too late.
Batman and Superman say similar things when they let people down. I suspect a forum member would not have been able to play the hero in this particular situation.
Post by: chemical_art on January 30, 2016, 02:19:25 am
Post by: Cinth on January 30, 2016, 02:38:23 am
Post by: chemical_art on January 30, 2016, 04:53:28 am
Sidebar: The one method NOT to contact me is via email. I attempted to update but was told it was already taken, odds are on one late night i got confused and made a dummy account that took my current email and never rectified it.
Post by: Misery on January 30, 2016, 06:11:27 am
That is: no one knew about Starward Rogue. TLF did well, and people are still interested in SBR. That's no accident, it's directly correlated with how much you talked up those games during development. You've got the visibility and reputation and a number of major outlets and public figures who'll spread the word about your games when you provide the material. This can still happen with Starward Rogue. Start talking about the game. Write up the backstory, the mechs, the design process, interview the contractors and volunteers, post links on reddit and do some streams. It has to be semi-regular and consistent, and on the blog so that more than the core fans see it.
But why? Like the dark ages of 2009 should not the game either rise as it finds its audience and as the updates come, or fall? Problem: your direct competitors are numerous and they're throwing around all kinds of marketing. SR's battle is staying relevant, and it won't be if the only ones who see progress are the players. It will be slow. Remember how many years and expansions it took for AI War to really take off? You're looking at that here. But it needs a base before it can get to that point, and the base is as much your talking up the product as it is the product itself. When your, Chris, share your excitement, the community responds.
This bit I just want to say, definitely important.
The game can get places... but it's not going to be a quick thing (particularly without any major Youtubers grabbing it) and even if it seems to not always be helping, keeping up some sort of constant chatter about it is probably going to be important. There's some things later that might give it a boost, but right now.... gotta keep pushing forth the fact that it's there.
Of course, where it will go in the near future is yet to be seen. What I do know is that my own role in this looks like it aint ending anytime soon. So I sure dont intend on giving up on it, nope. I hope the others dont either.
And here's hoping Chris has time to come and read some of the stuff in here... I'd be interested to see his responses to some of it.
Post by: Cinth on January 30, 2016, 12:13:20 pm
I trust Chris to tell me when/how to present how I present what I think, if it is desired. I know this is an intense time for him, so he shall decide the method, if at all.
No worries man. If I have something I want to tell him and I don't want it public, I just pm him. It was just a suggestion on my part to you. Use it or don't, I don't care. ;)
Post by: Vacuity on January 30, 2016, 03:04:19 pm
Oh, I looked, so far the comments are pleasantly well thought out.
Post by: crazyroosterman on January 30, 2016, 06:47:52 pm
Post by: simprosestudios on January 30, 2016, 09:21:14 pm
I hardly expect I could right the ship if I came in a month or two earlier into this debate. But I was gone for well over a year and if I was more active I would have picked up on these warning signs and said something that isn't 100% supportive. Even now, I want to say things while not entirely pleasant would help things down the road. Someone has to say it.
I think (or suspect) I said a few of these things on the blog comments area...and I noticed mine was the ONLY comment that didn't get a response from Chris. :) So it probably won't be popular, I imagine.
The fact of the matter (and this is MHO as a Steam Dev who also makes niche games) is: The landscape is changing. Budgets and operations must be kept very tight ($80-$100K budget is crazy for a niche indie title nowadays to me), and strong marketing is essential for any niche indie product's success. An average of 3-8 new products go on Steam every day, and it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle. If even some of Arcen's fans and niche game fans were barely aware of the game, then there was a failure somewhere along the line.
I love Arcen's core principles and many of their games. I'm rooting for them to come out and kick butt and do well. The thing is, since AI Wars came out in '09, things have changed, and not always for the better for a niche indie to be found and be successful.
Post by: Dominus Arbitrationis on January 30, 2016, 09:48:13 pm
hey so since this means that unless a miracle happens and star ward explodes that dominos is going to have to be laid does that miserys going to stay as the sole moderator?.
No matter what happens with the game or Arcen in general, I am going to stay on and continue working with Chris for all of this. Basically the only thing that will change is I might end up being around less if I get other work too.
Post by: cupogoodness on February 01, 2016, 04:50:22 am
So from now on no more stealth releases! No more stealth expansions! Secret plans are all well and good except when you have to sell them at the end. :)
That (naturally) came down to a financial decision. The game wasn't ready to show until right ahead of release, and if we moved the release back for marketing purposes, it would mean laying off folks ahead of it.
To be clear to everyone mentioning marketing issues: This is not some normal thing we're super fond of doing, or intend to model our efforts after on future releases.
Post by: zespri on February 01, 2016, 09:40:00 am
Post by: nas1m on February 01, 2016, 10:29:30 am
What were the mid-2015 Steam store changes that were detrimental to sales?I think the visibility of games that are on sale changed in a way that affected their sales negatively, presumably related to Steam preferably showing you games it "thinks" you have an interest in?
Post by: Matruchus on February 01, 2016, 10:50:50 am
What were the mid-2015 Steam store changes that were detrimental to sales?
I think it was the refund option that was introduced on Steam in June 2015 enabling you to refund any game you play less then two hours. Since TLF and Ai War (main sellers) are long haulers this might have been very negative for them.
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2016, 12:06:15 pm
And yeah, this game appeared on the stupid popular section, but it's already been scrolled off of that first page. And I suspect most people dont actually click to go to other pages.
And of course Steam keeps trying to show me things it thinks I would buy that make no sense (really? jRPGs? To *me*? You've got to be kidding) while not really showing things related to what I DO buy. That stupid banner thing is basically useless to me at this point.
Post by: LaGrange on February 01, 2016, 04:04:12 pm
My theory on the Steam thing is still the same as always: That damn change they made to their store format. How it now only shows, by default, the "popular" games (which are often the sort I consider terrible), and only for a short time as they are slowly scrolled. You have to specifically tell it, via a nearly hidden button at the very bottom, to show ALL releases, or to show more than just a single page even of just the popular ones. I cant count the number of games I nearly missed out on because of this. I completely hate it now.Actually, if you click to show ALL releases, then as of right now, eighty-seven releases have occurred in the ten days since Starward Rogue's release! And their attempt to help us navigate this bloat with the whole 'exploration queue' mechanic is a bust; it's like we're in the days of AltaVista or Lycos before Google swooped in with their superior search algorithms. Steam's selections for us are rarely helpful.
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 01, 2016, 05:37:54 pm
Post by: garion333 on February 01, 2016, 06:27:54 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/HOmEtXi.jpg)
HMargin of error puts the game at at least 2,000 copies, which is double what the first few days had. Hopefully that's a sign of things to come.
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2016, 06:39:05 pm
For some reason Steam wants to shove me Visual Novels int he face. I don't play them, I don't have them but still I always get them on the "new, improved and personalized storefront".
Ugh, same here.
I always want there to be a "DAMMIT STOP DOING THAT YOU STUPID THING" button available instead of just a "not interested" one, for times like that.
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 04, 2016, 03:43:51 am
So why you ask anyway, despite me just telling you to look that up yourself ;P
Rabi-Rabi - http://store.steampowered.com/app/400910/ (This is a big one)
Space Moth DX - http://store.steampowered.com/app/425340/
Starward Rogue <--
Close Order - http://store.steampowered.com/app/383800/
The Bug Butcher - http://store.steampowered.com/app/350740/ (another big one)
Endica 4 the Dream King - http://store.steampowered.com/app/343150/
Sora - http://store.steampowered.com/app/390730/ (Something SHMUP fans especially know about, but very niche)
So lots of bla bla and text and links... I just wanted to show that chronologically, SR released right between 2 big SHMUP / Bullet Hell releases one of which even I (someone that hates bullet hell) would want to play at some point (That's Bug Butcher obviously ,p). Look at the sales of the games I listed above on steamspy and you see...
Also for the record Bug Butcher steam discussion has a very Interesting topic about Spanish translations in case you ever thought translation work was as simple as translating words ,p
Point being: Genre flooded in January, very unusual to see that many games in the same genre (kind of) And tons of other games I didn't even list released, the week SR released especially.. so lots of contenders, huge swath of other games. Market flooded, literally. Still not even half way through my discovery queue for LAST month. ^^
Post by: Captain Jack on February 04, 2016, 03:58:56 am
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 04, 2016, 04:03:07 am
Post by: chemical_art on February 04, 2016, 04:34:55 am
Nhhhh it's a bullet hell game with loot, and it doesn't drop interesting crazy loot, and it doesn't look unique. That's the problem right there (I mean bullet hell and no interesting unique look and loot) ... if you click on the tags within steam itself, you will see why.
This is something I have thought about: There is no hook to make me want to play "just one more time" The loot is simply too boring. There are no item (combos) that lead to me drastically adjusting my gameplay. I don't feel like I am going to meet something wildly different then what I saw before. I just don't feel like the game plays differently enough between runs.
Post by: Captain Jack on February 04, 2016, 04:58:01 am
Explain a bit more. Is it more because of the items or the enemies?Nhhhh it's a bullet hell game with loot, and it doesn't drop interesting crazy loot, and it doesn't look unique. That's the problem right there (I mean bullet hell and no interesting unique look and loot) ... if you click on the tags within steam itself, you will see why.
This is something I have thought about: There is no hook to make me want to play "just one more time" The loot is simply too boring. There are no item (combos) that lead to me drastically adjusting my gameplay. I don't feel like I am going to meet something wildly different then what I saw before. I just don't feel like the game plays differently enough between runs.
Post by: chemical_art on February 04, 2016, 05:46:44 am
Items are more of what I talk about. There are no items for me that have such an impact of how I normally play. There is no item so powerful/unique/interesting that I would adjust my playstyle around them. Instead, I typically very quickly find one item I find ok (if at all, I'm perfectly fine with starting items) and stick with it the item the whole round.
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 04, 2016, 05:57:00 am
Explain a bit more. Is it more because of the items or the enemies?Nhhhh it's a bullet hell game with loot, and it doesn't drop interesting crazy loot, and it doesn't look unique. That's the problem right there (I mean bullet hell and no interesting unique look and loot) ... if you click on the tags within steam itself, you will see why.
This is something I have thought about: There is no hook to make me want to play "just one more time" The loot is simply too boring. There are no item (combos) that lead to me drastically adjusting my gameplay. I don't feel like I am going to meet something wildly different then what I saw before. I just don't feel like the game plays differently enough between runs.
That's not what I meant, I am not talking about replayability, I talk about what would make someone play it to begin with, outside of the genre reach, aka perception in a sea of competitors, what makes SR stand out, does it offer something beyond bullet hell / shmup standard formula (enter room/clear room/rince/repeat) does it offer unique characters, story and stuff? My saying is that SR sits next to (Beat em-up style, with bullet hell bosses) bunny girls (7,268 owners currently + trading cards with very high value as always with moe cards) and a (very neat art-style, high polish) bug butcher (15,870 owners currently) on the steam store right next to each other. That's imo strong opposition even on a slow month (January was NOT slow, and we have the Division, Xcom 2 and various other things that release too).
Btw, Rabi-Ribi is also a competitor to SR so don't ignore that one (released after SR, but probably draws sales away), that game does story/CG/loot/exploration/bullet hell bosses and puzzles ^^
Post by: chemical_art on February 04, 2016, 06:02:37 am
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 04, 2016, 06:18:45 am
Also that said, I watched the Scot Manley video of this game and .. well.. Scot Manley and bullet hell, what were you guys in PR thinking, can't believe he picked the worst mutator in the game by accident too ;P
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 04, 2016, 06:57:42 am
I don't see any appeal to the game except the obvious fanservice. And fanservice is never a selling point to me, it actually turns me off.
now, when I say fanservice, I mean stuff like anime-style characters, overly cute drrawn characters (the anime fans call them moe I think) and the obious point: Boobs.
Neither the art style of the game (not the anime-style, I can live with that, I mean the actual style of the gameplay) nor the gameplay seem to encourage me to buy this game.
All in the store page scremas to me "Plain!"
Also the obvious: Plattformer. if I wanted to play a plattformer, i would buy a plattformer. Peopel that don't look for plattformers will pass rabi Rabi but give SR a chance.
This game reminds me of another game I started playing but didn't finish (because it wasn't entertaining enough to catch my attention): CHelasea and the seven devils (or something liek that). You played a buuy girl there too and it had a rimiliar visual art style (anime-style pixel art). What the game made at least a litle inetresting was the time manupilation feature where you could stop (or slow, I don't quite remember) time to solve some of the puzzles. Not, that it had many puzzles to begin with...
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 04, 2016, 06:59:28 am
Yeah that can also be a factor for people ;) I can only speak for my own perception.
Also that said, I watched the Scot Manley video of this game and .. well.. Scot Manley and bullet hell, what were you guys in PR thinking, can't believe he picked the worst mutator in the game by accident too ;P
Scott picked it up on his own accord I think.
Post by: Misery on February 04, 2016, 09:57:32 am
Nhhhh it's a bullet hell game with loot, and it doesn't drop interesting crazy loot, and it doesn't look unique. That's the problem right there (I mean bullet hell and no interesting unique look and loot) ... if you click on the tags within steam itself, you will see why.
So why you ask anyway, despite me just telling you to look that up yourself ;P
Rabi-Rabi - http://store.steampowered.com/app/400910/ (This is a big one)
Space Moth DX - http://store.steampowered.com/app/425340/
Starward Rogue <--
Close Order - http://store.steampowered.com/app/383800/
The Bug Butcher - http://store.steampowered.com/app/350740/ (another big one)
Endica 4 the Dream King - http://store.steampowered.com/app/343150/
Sora - http://store.steampowered.com/app/390730/ (Something SHMUP fans especially know about, but very niche)
So lots of bla bla and text and links... I just wanted to show that chronologically, SR released right between 2 big SHMUP / Bullet Hell releases one of which even I (someone that hates bullet hell) would want to play at some point (That's Bug Butcher obviously ,p). Look at the sales of the games I listed above on steamspy and you see...Shadow Rogue.. ..Stalwart Rogue.. Starward Rogue fits right in the middle sales wise. (Btw, that was a joke on the naming.. don't just type Rogue, you never find this game in steam :p)
Also for the record Bug Butcher steam discussion has a very Interesting topic about Spanish translations in case you ever thought translation work was as simple as translating words ,p
Point being: Genre flooded in January, very unusual to see that many games in the same genre (kind of) And tons of other games I didn't even list released, the week SR released especially.. so lots of contenders, huge swath of other games. Market flooded, literally. Still not even half way through my discovery queue for LAST month. ^^
Honestly, MOST games of the type that this is dont drop "crazy loot" or use synergies. Isaac is, actually, the only one that does. Which is part of the problem. People play that just a BIT, and expect every other game of this type to do that. Aint how it works. And even in Isaac, it has.... issues. It works there because nobody expects actual REAL balance, which is good, because there isnt much, not to mention that it obliterates what difficulty the game has. It also utterly deletes the need for thinking or tactics when a synergy occurs (fun for awhile, but honestly, this is what makes for by far the least interesting part of Isaac to me). I own a bunch of games of this genre though, and... yeah. Isaac is the only one that does that. And frankly.... I think that's a good thing. I actually can get some challenge out of those. I cant get that out of Isaac, much as I like it. Every run is a guaranteed win in that game. ALL of them.
Also.... those games in that list dont make sense for comparison.
Like Bug Butcher... that's not even close to the same sort of game OR a bullet-hell. Neither is the original arcade game (from a million years ago) that it copies/mimics (which is one I've played to death actually, very fun game). And the less said about Rabi-Ribi the better; it's a Metroid-vania sort. And a platformer. It has bullet-hell bosses, but... that's about the only real similarity. And even then, the differences in design are extremely dramatic. Understanding alot about bullet-hells and metroid-vania sorts, and all of that... I can say, it isnt exactly going to attract the same sort of players. You'd think "bullet hell" might mean it would, but not in this case. As we've already seen with THIS game, and as I myself have witnessed 10 squillion times over the years in that blasted community, fans of THAT specific aspect tend to be a bit.... picky. Tell one of them that "platformer" is involved, and you typically get "NOPE" in response (frankly, tell them that, well, all SORTS of possible things are involved, and you still get "nope" in response... sigh). Obviously there's exceptions, sure. But they arent the main ones drawn to that game.
In the end though, it's also still just a Metroidvania game, as is Endica for that matter. Metroidvanias and roguelikes.... VERY different from each other. It's another set of genres that just isnt very comparable.
There is Space Moth, but.... ehhhh.... I'll just say, that one didn't come out so well, honestly. The really boring patterns kinda kill it for me. But I need more time with it before I can fully judge it.
I was going from the perspective of needing replayability in order to stand out. For this genre I will get bored very quickly if things are too much of the same. Having items that are powerful to have me adjust my tactics on the fly would be a very large positive for me to investigate and ultimately buy a game.
That's the thing about really powerful items though: go too far with them, and "too much of the same" is *exactly* what you get. Because suddenly, every time you have those items... same boring run as the last time you had those items. Like what happens in Isaac if I get the Stopwatch (a cure for insomnia, basically, and I mean that literally; I actually started to fall asleep the last time I played it with that, it was so boring). Or Brimstone + ... er... anything. I dont even take Brimstone much anymore because it's insta-wins against nearly everything just got so bloody dull.
The only reason why Isaac avoids this being a chronic problem is the sheer ridiculous nature and ridiculous NUMBER of synergies that can happen. They're so hilarious and bizarre that even if they ARE utterly destroying the challenge/balance of the game, you keep going anyway. Yet when you get right down to it... all of the strongest synergies really are the same. Enter room, HAHAHA CHAOS, next room, repeat.
That sort of stuff is hard to do to begin with, and COMPLETELY impossible on a low budget and low time frame. There's a reason why Isaac and it's expansions took a bazillion years to come out.
Now, that being said, I'm well aware that, for what this game is, the items do still need to have more to entice the player to them. Weapons and special weapons right now arent very desirable, a number of items that DO have special effects (instead of stat boosts) dont have ENOUGH of them, some items are so stupidly powerful that they make the rest of the run boring (blade module, among others), and consumables arent very desirable.... there definitely are issues with them. I'm going to be diving into these myself starting today and making some changes, and seeing what can be done.
However, we CAN also use some ideas/inspiration for future items, if any of you guys have any. It's not stuff that'd get added immediately of course; this'd be for later down the line. But it would help alot. So by all means, let us know if you have any ideas for any.
But for right now... I'm gonna work on sorting out some of what we already have.
Post by: chemical_art on February 04, 2016, 02:15:24 pm
Honestly, MOST games of the type that this is dont drop "crazy loot" or use synergies. Isaac is, actually, the only one that does. Which is part of the problem. People play that just a BIT, and expect every other game of this type to do that.
If the concept is truly unusual (I am taking you at your word) then the only people who expect it are people who have never played the genre before Isaac. In other words, it brought new players to the genre. Or, perhaps, it is more of a matter that the player misidentifies the genre, but there is a shortage of games that are similar so players are grasping for straws. Regardless, the whole point about standing out is that it is the only one that does it. That is not always positive, nor it is a negative, but it is a fact. It is certainly not a problem, it is different strokes for different folks. Before Isaac I had zero interesting in this genre. None. Now I have just the most cautious of attempts.
It may be different. But it is a game with that sold millions (far, far more then the average game of the genre according to https://steamspy.com/tag/Bullet+Hell ) and has an absolutely positive reception. If someone was to make the case that Isaac butchers a genre, on the face of it I would Issac then is a distributor of the genre that signals a niche that needs to be filled.
Post by: Misery on February 04, 2016, 02:24:38 pm
Honestly, MOST games of the type that this is dont drop "crazy loot" or use synergies. Isaac is, actually, the only one that does. Which is part of the problem. People play that just a BIT, and expect every other game of this type to do that.
If the concept is truly unusual (I am taking you at your word) then the only people who expect it are people who have never played the genre before Isaac. In other words, it brought new players to the genre. Or, perhaps, it is more of a matter that the player misidentifies the genre, but there is a shortage of games that are similar so players are grasping for straws. Regardless, the whole point about standing out is that it is the only one that does it. That is not always positive, nor it is a negative, but it is a fact. It is certainly not a problem, it is different strokes for different folks. Before Isaac I had zero interesting in this genre. None. Now I have just the most cautious of attempts.
It may be different. But it is a game with that sold millions (far, far more then the average game of the genre according to https://steamspy.com/tag/Bullet+Hell ) and has an absolutely positive reception. If someone was to make the case that Isaac butchers a genre, on the face of it I would Issac then is a distributor of the genre that signals a niche that needs to be filled.
Hm, dont get me wrong here: I know I might sound kinda negative (but to be fair, I *always* sound that way), but I have nothing against Isaac. Far from it. I've been a huge fan of the game since the original version and have put some damn silly number of hours into it. But it does remain that it really is the only one that does the synergy thing much. Now, that's not to say that other games NEVER have synergies. Even SR here definitely has a few. But Isaac is the only one that basically builds an entire game out of it, and as it's the one that jump-started this genre, it does tend to put those expectations into the minds of players.
And in the end, for most other games... the idea just isnt feasible. For THIS game, it would have needed a MUCH longer development time to even begin to try for that. Much much longer. And that wasnt possible, unfortunately. I sure would have liked more development time, but... that's how it goes, I suppose.
Now, that being said, I'm going to try to make quite a number of items more interesting/desirable, things the player wants to grab and things that are just fun to have. Many items do seem to have the potential for this, but just arent quite there yet.
I've started a feedback thread for all of this sort of thing, individual items and whatnot, if you'd like to post any specific thoughts you have about any of them. It really would help a ton. The more feedback, the better.
Post by: chemical_art on February 04, 2016, 02:34:14 pm
But it does go back to having *something* that drives me to want to play again. Item combos are just one way. The only arcade-style shooting game I ever bought was r-type final. There were only at most 12 stages (maybe less). However, what drove me to play it was that there were 101 ships. Granted, many of them were clones (which actually made some sense: the game was presented as a war and the clones were slightly superior versions of the originals as they went through their trials) however even removing the clones there still were at least two dozen ships to try. Yes, some were clearly stronger then others, but that is not the point. If you were a perfectionist maybe you would need it, but the majority just wanted new ships to try.
Post by: eRe4s3r on February 04, 2016, 05:26:19 pm
Okay, so you are fascinated with Rabi Rabi for... what?
I mention that because steam lists it when you click on the tags ;) And to see why your sales are how they are, the releases that happened "aside" SR are kinda related after all, specially when steam tags put them next to each other ^^
All I tried to showcase is that there a plenty of games released aside SR that have some genre overlap (no matter how wide) but also a unique thing that puts them apart... and to point out that even other indy games released next to SR don't have tremendously better sales....
Post by: Rushyo on February 04, 2016, 07:17:14 pm
To put it bluntly: Bullet hell games do not make very much money at the moment, and Starward Rogue is about as successful as you'd expect for a high quality bullet hell game.
The median income for a bullet hell game is $27k, with ~4000 sales. Starward Rogue has (probably) already exceeded those values. In the past 4 months, there have been only a handful of games that have made more than Starward Rogue, and they have been on sale for much, much longer.
Perhaps for an Arcen game Starward Rogue performs poorly, but in the bullet hell market it's not unusual for very highly rated games to sell at this rate. A comparable game would be Bullet Heaven 2. Exceptionally very received in terms of critical reviews (99% score), sold at the same price as Starward Rogue, but only shifted ~2500 copies in total since it was released in early December.
I can only assume that Arcen were either using their other games to drive financial expectations for Starward Rogue (failing to account for the fact bullet hells are a tough market), or failed to account for outliers in their initial analysis (as every so often a game like Nuclear Throne comes along and completely skews most market data).
It seems to me bullet hells rarely earn enough to pay an individual developer a passable wage, let alone a team. This isn't even accounting for the survivorship bias of only analysing games that were successful enough to get shipped on Steam. Whilst I think Starward Rogue is a fantastic game it has been released in to a very harsh market, and has performed as well as I'd expect it to, even accounting for its quality.
Perhaps the market has fallen apart since the decision to make Starward Rogue, and the data I'm looking at is not representative of how the market was back then. But, then, that would explain quite neatly why Starward Rogue isn't a commercial success, and Arcen would surely be aware of that fact.
Perhaps it was a case of exceedingly high expectations: that Starward Rogue was expected to out-perform the market like a game such as Nuclear Throne - but then given those games are so rare it would have been very clear that there was a significant risk, even if Arcen were certain the game was going to be a critical hit.
Looking at the data I just can't be surprised by how Starward Rogue is doing. I can only assume that in command of plenty of data about their own releases Arcen were operating under the assumption it would perform similarly to the rest of their catalogue, without fully accounting for the fact Starward Rogue is a bullet hell and those simply do not sell very well, regardless of how great they are, bar some freak marketing success.
I have a further theory: Given The Last Federation had the same issue of lower sales than expected, and is partly a bullet hell game (although less so than SR), perhaps the eventual success only came from bringing in people who would otherwise never have seen the game on the basis of what it was, requiring an additional marketing push to bring in a disproportionate number of strategy/4X players to make up the numbers. In other words, this is the second time this has happened, but it's going to be harder to address this time as Starward Rogue isn't going to benefit as much from taking advantage of genre overlap.
I bought TLF as a strategy player, not a bullet hell player, and I bought Starward Rogue completely against my purchasing habits. It's great, I love it, but I am not a statistic in the bullet hell market, and relying on people like me to buy Starward Rogue is a losing proposition. I'm also suffering from severe roguelite exhaustion, as I suspect many others are. I own Starward Rogue *solely* due to brand loyalty. The game does not overlap with my traditional genre interests at all, like TLF did. I think, therefore, that the last ditch strategy of appealing directly to brand loyalty for SR is going to have a lesser effect than it did with TLF, since you're asking more of the typical brand audience.
Post by: Misery on February 04, 2016, 08:35:01 pm
I've been looking at the numbers around bullet hell games, intrigued by the apparent failure of Starward Rogue. I've correlated data from Steam Spy and I'm wondering what the market strategy was for the game.
To put it bluntly: Bullet hell games do not make very much money at the moment, and Starward Rogue is about as successful as you'd expect for a high quality bullet hell game.
The median income for a bullet hell game is $27k, with ~4000 sales. Starward Rogue has (probably) already exceeded those values. In the past 4 months, there have been only a handful of games that have made more than Starward Rogue, and they have been on sale for much, much longer.
Perhaps for an Arcen game Starward Rogue performs poorly, but in the bullet hell market it's not unusual for very highly rated games to sell at this rate. A comparable game would be Bullet Heaven 2. Exceptionally very received in terms of critical reviews (99% score), sold at the same price as Starward Rogue, but only shifted ~2500 copies in total since it was released in early December.
I can only assume that Arcen were either using their other games to drive financial expectations for Starward Rogue (failing to account for the fact bullet hells are a tough market), or failed to account for outliers in their initial analysis (as every so often a game like Nuclear Throne comes along and completely skews most market data).
It seems to me bullet hells rarely earn enough to pay an individual developer a passable wage, let alone a team. This isn't even accounting for the survivorship bias of only analysing games that were successful enough to get shipped on Steam. Whilst I think Starward Rogue is a fantastic game it has been released in to a very harsh market, and has performed as well as I'd expect it to, even accounting for its quality.
Perhaps the market has fallen apart since the decision to make Starward Rogue, and the data I'm looking at is not representative of how the market was back then. But, then, that would explain quite neatly why Starward Rogue isn't a commercial success, and Arcen would surely be aware of that fact.
Perhaps it was a case of exceedingly high expectations: that Starward Rogue was expected to out-perform the market like a game such as Nuclear Throne - but then given those games are so rare it would have been very clear that there was a significant risk, even if Arcen were certain the game was going to be a critical hit.
Looking at the data I just can't be surprised by how Starward Rogue is doing. I can only assume that in command of plenty of data about their own releases Arcen were operating under the assumption it would perform similarly to the rest of their catalogue, without fully accounting for the fact Starward Rogue is a bullet hell and those simply do not sell very well, regardless of how great they are, bar some freak marketing success.
I have a further theory: Given The Last Federation had the same issue of lower sales than expected, and is partly a bullet hell game (although less so than SR), perhaps the eventual success only came from bringing in people who would otherwise never have seen the game on the basis of what it was, requiring an additional marketing push to bring in a disproportionate number of strategy/4X players to make up the numbers. In other words, this is the second time this has happened, but it's going to be harder to address this time as Starward Rogue isn't going to benefit as much from taking advantage of genre overlap.
I bought TLF as a strategy player, not a bullet hell player, and I bought Starward Rogue completely against my purchasing habits. It's great, I love it, but I am not a statistic in the bullet hell market, and relying on people like me to buy Starward Rogue is a losing proposition. I'm also suffering from severe roguelite exhaustion, as I suspect many others are. I own Starward Rogue *solely* due to brand loyalty. The game does not overlap with my traditional genre interests at all, like TLF did. I think, therefore, that the last ditch strategy of appealing directly to brand loyalty for SR is going to have a lesser effect than it did with TLF, since you're asking more of the typical brand audience.
Regardless of all of that though, the thing is that the advertising and "getting the word out" just didn't really happen (I think Chris went into more detail in some part of his blog there). Regardless of what the market is or isnt, and all of that, you cant sell what people just dont know about. Even some people that were big fans of Arcen and tended to follow them said "Wait, what? Where did THAT come from?" when the game came out. Which wasnt a good sign, I tell ya that.
That and it was never pushed forward as a pure bullet-hell game to begin with. At it's core it's more of an Isaac-ish thing. The bullet-hell aspect mostly exists because of my own influence in it, as that's my design style when it comes to bosses & enemies (I also did the Obscura and other new ships in TLF's first expansion, for that matter). Which is also why it became important to bring in other people to design enemies too, so that not EVERYTHING was absolute pure bullet-hell style. If it were up to just me you'd be drowning in bullets in every room. Which is what would have happened if it WAS intended from the start as a pure bullet-hell idea. But instead we've got a pretty nice mix of styles going on, which works well in the game's favor.
I've forgotten what else I was going to say.
Post by: Rushyo on February 04, 2016, 09:56:41 pm
Quote
Regardless of what the market is or isnt, and all of that, you cant sell what people just dont know about.
That alone, though, wouldn't explain why it outperforms other similar games. SR is already beating my expectation of how the game would typically perform in that market, and in record time. That implies it was relatively well exposed compared to the competition I'm judging it against (some of which were similarly highly acclaimed), even if it's less exposure than Arcen is traditionally used to. That is, in fact, entirely consistent with my argument that Arcen expected more than the target market can be reasonably expected to provide, and the success of SR is being judged against how much Arcen would typically shift instead. That makes it a relatively risky proposition, since it was reliant on Arcen performing equally or as well as they as they have in the past, rather than on how the market would be anticipated to receive the game. Any failure to meet Arcen's usual standard in terms of sales would have greater consequences than it would to similar competition. It's understandable that Arcen might have chosen to accept that risk, but it would then not be surprising if that risk didn't come off.
Quote
That and it was never pushed forward as a pure bullet-hell game to begin with. At it's core it's more of an Isaac-ish thing.
My data was based on games that incorporate bullet hell aspects. Not (for lack of a better term) 'pure breeds'. There's overlap in the categorisation I'm using to account for this. It could be skewed as a result of not all the other data points not being exactly the same genre combination as SR is, but that's not a realistic way to judge expected return from the games market as a whole. You can't only compare against identical games because the entire point is it's a creative enterprise and there should be a margin of error for different blends of styles, different players tastes, and designs which fall short... and a game like SR clearly does not fall short in terms of quality - from what I can tell it's seen to be fantastic no matter what genre you judge it against. Not to mention there aren't enough highly similar games to do a solid statistical analysis, so relying solely on analysis against only really similar games would always result in the game being an unacceptably large risk to any company that doesn't have cash to burn!
Unfortunately whilst it correlates to a good degree, quality is not a massive influencer of financial success when you look at games incorporating bullet-hell mechanics. A really high quality game doesn't generally make significantly more return than a middling quality game, even though it's very likely to make a little bit more. Comparing SR to Isaac would forget that Isaac is a total outlier. Isaac was so much more successful than it had any right to be. No business could reasonably expect to enjoy similar success, even with a superior game. There's simply not that sort of purchasing power being spent on those sort of games except under extremely difficult to predict conditions.
It's not like, say, modern multiplayer survival games, where a superior quality game will steal all the fans getting bored of 'last season's' survival game or strategy, where its adherents are relatively likely to buy the highest quality game on the market every so often and play it to death.
By the standards of similar games, Starward Rogue seems very successful. What I would deem the natural competition of Starward Rogue could not generally expect to have achieved more than Starward Rogue already has (although one could hope!). That makes it a real shame to see that isn't enough... and I genuinely hope I'm wrong to expect that SR will not have the same bounce-back that TLF had with a second market push.
Quote
But instead we've got a pretty nice mix of styles going on, which works well in the game's favor.
Personally I love the variety, and I think the combination works really nicely. I have to say I particularly like the Demesne whenever it pops up in combination with one of the more esoteric mobs.
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 04, 2016, 10:13:32 pm
1 tlf sold less than expected?! I vividly remember saying that tlf sold more in a short period of time than ai war(the game that arcen is most well know for as we know) did in years(I think) unless I've gone made at long last and am imagining things
2 without misery's influence this game would probably have felt a little hollow to me since personally my favourite parts of the game are the bosses and if designed by anybody would have probably not been challenging enough
Post by: Rushyo on February 04, 2016, 11:38:53 pm
okay 2 things
1 tlf sold less than expected?! I vividly remember saying that tlf sold more in a short period of time than ai war(the game that arcen is most well know for as we know) did in years(I think) unless I've gone made at long last and am imagining things
Oops! No it didn't. I was mis-remembering the paragraph here:
Quote
I’ll save you the trouble of pointing out that this has happened to us before. Back in 2010 we had a lot of trouble, and then promptly were pulled out of it by an outpouring of support. I still had to lay off about half the team that worked on Tidalis, but the company itself continued on and eventually grew larger than ever before.
We had some more woes in early 2014, right before The Last Federation came out. These were not particularly public, but we lost a bunch of staff then again. By making a lot of personal financial investments and by making the staff cuts, I managed to get us to the finish line on that game without us having to cry for help again. It wasn’t something I ever wanted to do again — particularly after in 2010, that became part of our reputation. This isn’t exactly something you want to be known for.
I had meant Tidalis, but was thinking of TLF because it was on the following paragraph.
Post by: Matruchus on February 05, 2016, 03:41:47 pm
Here the graph showing what happened to puppygames sales after the refund system was implemented: http://www.puppygames.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/oh_valve.png
Post by: ptarth on February 05, 2016, 04:00:33 pm
Post by: Matruchus on February 05, 2016, 04:24:46 pm
I'd like to see the chart of sales, returns, and not just the net sales chart. Do you happen to known which blog post contains their data analysis of the original version of that chart?This is the only blog they made: http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708
Post by: ptarth on February 05, 2016, 05:04:43 pm
What analysis are they talking about? It is probably the first publication of that graph.
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 05, 2016, 08:23:11 pm
Post by: Misery on February 05, 2016, 08:25:27 pm
Not that this is new for me or anything....
Post by: Cinth on February 05, 2016, 08:28:10 pm
I've lost track of what's being discussed here.
Not that this is new for me or anything....
That needs to be put into your signature block.
Post by: Misery on February 05, 2016, 08:29:18 pm
Post by: Bluddy on February 05, 2016, 09:04:16 pm
Post by: GiftGruen on June 09, 2016, 07:25:10 pm
The game STILL has only 3 negative reviews, compared to 245 positive ones! Will try it out tomorrow immediately. Every of the three Arcen games I own were brilliant and all others interesting because they strayed from the usual design path in their respective genre and I wish you the best of luck, and not only because you seem to innovate at a pace a dozen times faster than any other game company.
It's as gut-wrenching to read this now as it must have been in January, but I hope you and the former and present teams have found a way forward for you and Arcen and the great games you make.
Post by: Misery on June 09, 2016, 09:06:57 pm
Wow! Just, wow! I've not noticed the game at all until now. Last time I visited here was apparently before Jan 10, and I only stumbled upon Starward Rogue because I looked at the Steam news section of AI War, which still contained the article of Jan 28 from Rock, Paper, Shotgun commenting on your statements in this thread.
The game STILL has only 3 negative reviews, compared to 245 positive ones! Will try it out tomorrow immediately. Every of the three Arcen games I own were brilliant and all others interesting because they strayed from the usual design path in their respective genre and I wish you the best of luck, and not only because you seem to innovate at a pace a dozen times faster than any other game company.
It's as gut-wrenching to read this now as it must have been in January, but I hope you and the former and present teams have found a way forward for you and Arcen and the great games you make.
Thanks, the interest in the game is appreciated. Once you've had a go, feel free to come here and give any feedback you may have; that sort of thing helps a lot, it does.
Though I refuse to apologize if the Blaze Cannons turn out to be super duper annoying. You'll see what I mean. Everyone does, eventually. They claim that it's my fault. But is it? IS IT?
As for Arcen, Chris has a project he's been working on that should show up relatively soon, I think? Heck if I remember his intended release date. But it's the Raptor game that has it's own section on the forums here. There's a ton of info on it in there, if you're interested in checking it out. I think it's shaping up well, from what I've seen of it. It's Arcen's first 3D game, too. And Keith is also working on something as well, though there's not as much info on the forums about that right now.
We'll see how things go, but I think the stuff they are doing has a lot of potential.
For Starward, we have a patch upcoming soon. I'm hoping that it doesn't break anything. Not sure just how soon though. I'm not good at estimating these things.
Post by: GiftGruen on June 10, 2016, 03:02:16 pm
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 12, 2016, 07:08:33 pm
well technically there is a lot of information on the game just keep in gruen that from what I've heard from Chris is that even the most up date threads from the testing won't actually tell you what the games like id still recommend reading if you think testing period threads are interesting though.Wow! Just, wow! I've not noticed the game at all until now. Last time I visited here was apparently before Jan 10, and I only stumbled upon Starward Rogue because I looked at the Steam news section of AI War, which still contained the article of Jan 28 from Rock, Paper, Shotgun commenting on your statements in this thread.
The game STILL has only 3 negative reviews, compared to 245 positive ones! Will try it out tomorrow immediately. Every of the three Arcen games I own were brilliant and all others interesting because they strayed from the usual design path in their respective genre and I wish you the best of luck, and not only because you seem to innovate at a pace a dozen times faster than any other game company.
It's as gut-wrenching to read this now as it must have been in January, but I hope you and the former and present teams have found a way forward for you and Arcen and the great games you make.
As for Arcen, Chris has a project he's been working on that should show up relatively soon, I think? Heck if I remember his intended release date. But it's the Raptor game that has it's own section on the forums here. There's a ton of info on it in there, if you're interested in checking it out. I think it's shaping up well, from what I've seen of it. It's Arcen's first 3D game, too. And Keith is also working on something as well, though there's not as much info on the forums about that right now.
Post by: zoutzakje on July 01, 2016, 04:33:43 pm
First I emptied my steam wallet on bionic dues and skyward collapse. Only played BD so far and it's great. Been having a lot of fun with it. But I craved more.
Then I found Starward Rogue and I'm loving it! Only played a single game on normal so far (which I only barely won), but I can't wait to finish writing this so I can jump right back in it.
I was a big fan of the original Binding of Isaac when it came out and I still play a few games from time to time. But this is going to be played a lot more from now on.
I usually really don't like any kind of bullethell (not just because I suck at it), but this all just seems to work beautifully together. I can't wait to find out what else this game has in store for me and I'm looking forward to seeing more stuff added in the future.
Last I'd like to address the original issue of this topic. I'm curious if Arcens financial status has improved over the last 6 months. Has SR sales finally kicked off or are they still disturbingly disappointing? I really hope you guys didn't need to fire too many people. I remember a previous major setback from Arcen and you managed to work yourselves on top of that and became better and bigger than ever before. There's no doubt in my mind that it will ultimately work out well again, if it hasn't already.
cheers,
zout
Post by: ERISS on August 29, 2016, 12:10:06 pm
I guess half did like me: they were not very interested by SR, but bought to help.
I played for I had bought and I like the company, but this is not really my kind of game (I'm some bad with shooters, so even if it's geniously good I don't play much).
I guess that if you had not needed help then the game would sold even so more badly...
Post by: Logorouge on August 29, 2016, 07:51:56 pm
I guess that if you had not needed help then the game would sold even so more badly...It's pretty depressing to think such a great game could be even more ignored than it already was. Sigh. But hey, that's bullethell. Not exactly the most popular genre on the planet, unfortunately. The difficulty levels did make it a LOT more accessible though, so there's that going for it.
Post by: chemical_art on August 29, 2016, 08:01:17 pm
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
Post by: Misery on August 29, 2016, 08:17:13 pm
Bullet hells are a niche, yes.
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
Is there something you thought the game was missing? (any feedback is useful, is why I ask)
Or am I just misreading this?
Post by: Logorouge on August 29, 2016, 08:21:45 pm
Bullet hells are a niche, yes.
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
If you mean in the sense of not crushing new players mercilessly and being a generally more welcoming game, then I think the aforementioned difficulty levels in addition to the shield and energy systems did a lot in that department.
I have the feeling I have misunderstood your meaning though.
Post by: chemical_art on August 29, 2016, 08:22:46 pm
Bullet hells are a niche, yes.
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
Is there something you thought the game was missing? (any feedback is useful, is why I ask)
Or am I just misreading this?
A sense of progressio aside from player skill.
Sure, procedural effects are nice, but there is no over-arching progression of...anything. In other words, if one is not skilled in the genre, then trying to play it multiple times if you do not have the skill to *completely* finish it (beat the final boss in whatever form) feels like a lack of progression.
We have discussed this before, it was proposed initially then later cut.
Post by: chemical_art on August 29, 2016, 08:25:49 pm
Bullet hells are a niche, yes.
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
If you mean in the sense of not crushing new players mercilessly and being a generally more welcoming game, then I think the aforementioned difficulty levels in addition to the shield and energy systems did a lot in that department.
I have the feeling I have misunderstood your meaning though.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say on a mechanical level it is more friendly. Maybe. I have not played since such a thing happened. And that in itself is a HUGE issue. You only get one shot to make that huge impression. If the first impression is rough, what inclination do I have to try it again months later? My backlog is too large already. The whole presentation is flawed.
However, unless the larger scope of "unless you beat whatever the last boss you are forced to face, then the overall story does not" then in a more meaningful level it is not much different from most bullet-hells.
Post by: Misery on August 29, 2016, 08:29:48 pm
Bullet hells are a niche, yes.
This game fundamentally did not improve that in any regard, while others have.
It is actually unlike arcen in that regard.
Yes, there is salt in this post.
Is there something you thought the game was missing? (any feedback is useful, is why I ask)
Or am I just misreading this?
A sense of progressio aside from player skill.
Sure, procedural effects are nice, but there is no over-arching progression of...anything. In other words, if one is not skilled in the genre, then trying to play it multiple times if you do not have the skill to *completely* finish it (beat the final boss in whatever form) feels like a lack of progression.
We have discussed this before, it was proposed initially then later cut.
Ohhhhh.... right. I see what you mean. Er, I think. Not having things like unlocks to get as you go along, or stuff like that? I think people call it "meta-progression" sometimes.
Aye, I do regret there not being stuff like that in this. There was supposed to be, but... er... you know, I have no bloody clue why it didn't happen. There was just so much chaos in that earliest part of development.
But it's the one thing truly lacking from this game that just bugs me. I personally am not too interested in unlocks in games, but definitely understand why others are, and that particular thing has great use in this genre. Games like Isaac just show it off that much more, too.
....or I'm remembering the wrong thing, correct me if I am.
Post by: chemical_art on August 29, 2016, 08:36:55 pm
Ohhhhh.... right. I see what you mean. Er, I think. Not having things like unlocks to get as you go along, or stuff like that? I think people call it "meta-progression" sometimes.
Aye, I do regret there not being stuff like that in this. There was supposed to be, but... er... you know, I have no bloody clue why it didn't happen. There was just so much chaos in that earliest part of development.
But it's the one thing truly lacking from this game that just bugs me. I personally am not too interested in unlocks in games, but definitely understand why others are, and that particular thing has great use in this genre. Games like Isaac just show it off that much more, too.
....or I'm remembering the wrong thing, correct me if I am.
You are not remembering it wrong at it, it is exactly that which is missing.
There is no "progression" in any sense of the modern term of the word. If I fail the first time, is there a reason I should try a second, third, fourth time?
I understand the old school value of trying to beat something hard. But that value is generally regulated in the few games that I naturally understood quickly. For the rest of the games, I NEED that sense of value, so I do not feel like I am just bashing my head against a wall. It just is a factor in the market today that wasn't there even 8 years ago.
One can complain about how games are not what they are used to be. I understand that. But adaptable is a cruel mistress.
Adapt or die.
A sense of progression if one does not win the first time is a fact of the game world. If one does that not make that, does it matter how much work a "hard" mode gets? How much work a "super" boss gets? How many updates occurs after the player has already wrote off the game?
Post by: Logorouge on August 29, 2016, 09:05:15 pm
A sense of progression if one does not win the first time is a fact of the game world. If one does that not make that, does it matter how much work a "hard" mode gets? How much work a "super" boss gets? How many updates occurs after the player has already wrote off the game?In the context that only the extra floors unlock has value and unlocking new enemies to be killed by is not much of a reward (and assuming reducing the difficulty to cakewalk level is out of the question), I can definitely see how the current lack of unlocks would suck.
That's an interesting point. It was definitely nice to progress in some way in every run of Isaac.
Post by: Misery on August 29, 2016, 09:25:24 pm
A sense of progression if one does not win the first time is a fact of the game world. If one does that not make that, does it matter how much work a "hard" mode gets? How much work a "super" boss gets? How many updates occurs after the player has already wrote off the game?In the context that only the extra floors unlock has value and unlocking new enemies to be killed by is not much of a reward (and assuming reducing the difficulty to cakewalk level is out of the question), I can definitely see how the current lack of unlocks would suck.
That's an interesting point. It was definitely nice to progress in some way in every run of Isaac.
Yep. And it's something we'd intended on doing from the start. But.... I dunno, I think it's one of those things where it just got lost in the tangled mess that was early development. There were just too many other things that had priority.
Though, on a side note, it does occur to me that most of Arcen's games don't seem to do the unlocking thing whatsoever.... I hadn't really spotted this before, but now that I think about it it's kinda obvious. The first Valley had stuff to unlock, lots of stuff.... but everything else? Huh. I dunno, I'd just plain not really noticed that before. I mean there's achievements and all, but that's not even remotely the same thing. I think the lack of it though is more felt in this game than in others though, as this genre IS one that usually contains a lot of unlocks. There's been exceptions to that, such as Nuclear Throne (you can unlock "B skins", but that's.... really about it), but exceptions like that are very rare.
Post by: Chthon on August 30, 2016, 08:18:53 am
Another reason that players used to play games that were hard to beat them was that when we were all younger, I guarantee that we had fewer options. Maybe Mom and Dad only bought 2 games a year, and that was all you got. You could give up on it, and not have anything to play, or work at it till you got good.
Ohhhhh.... right. I see what you mean. Er, I think. Not having things like unlocks to get as you go along, or stuff like that? I think people call it "meta-progression" sometimes.
Aye, I do regret there not being stuff like that in this. There was supposed to be, but... er... you know, I have no bloody clue why it didn't happen. There was just so much chaos in that earliest part of development.
But it's the one thing truly lacking from this game that just bugs me. I personally am not too interested in unlocks in games, but definitely understand why others are, and that particular thing has great use in this genre. Games like Isaac just show it off that much more, too.
....or I'm remembering the wrong thing, correct me if I am.
You are not remembering it wrong at it, it is exactly that which is missing.
There is no "progression" in any sense of the modern term of the word. If I fail the first time, is there a reason I should try a second, third, fourth time?
I understand the old school value of trying to beat something hard. But that value is generally regulated in the few games that I naturally understood quickly. For the rest of the games, I NEED that sense of value, so I do not feel like I am just bashing my head against a wall. It just is a factor in the market today that wasn't there even 8 years ago.
One can complain about how games are not what they are used to be. I understand that. But adaptable is a cruel mistress.
Adapt or die.
A sense of progression if one does not win the first time is a fact of the game world. If one does that not make that, does it matter how much work a "hard" mode gets? How much work a "super" boss gets? How many updates occurs after the player has already wrote off the game?
These days, games are much cheaper, discounting the triple A titles, and those of us with money can buy many more. I find myself continuously going back to games which I find fun, but I do remember the days when I played hard games. A proper difficulty curve, or progression, assists with getting newer players in these days by not driving them off to the other games they have.
Post by: Misery on August 30, 2016, 11:36:30 pm
The game is partly an Isaac-ish game, but those vary wildly in terms of difficulty, and very few have progression that actually helps the player. Even Isaac doesn't really do this: the game has plenty of unlocks that give you bloody horrid items, or items that are very "meh". There aren't any unlocks that make the game easier. There ARE, however, ones that make it definitively harder ("Everything is Terrible!" for example).
With this game, well.... it has the bullet-hell label right up front, for instance. That alone says a lot, and will repulse most gamers that are the sorts that look for an easier experience. Bullet hell games are notorious for being the sorts of games that beat you over the head with your own face while laughing about it. And then doing it even worse the next time. The sorts of players that ARENT scared off by that are usually the sort that'd find difficulty-decreasers (such as unlocking permanent bonuses to your ship/character) to be almost insulting. Among those that the genre caters to, those are almost a cardinal sin in and of themselves. I, frankly, am also one of those that typically wont touch a game that does this.
The same applies to roguelikes, which is the other half of this game. Of that genre, Isaac is the ONLY easy one. Which, actually, is a pretty common complaint among it's fans. Very common, actually. Roguelikes don't do a damn thing to lower the challenge at any point; meta-progression, like in bullet hell games, is traditionally non-existent. There's the occaisional exception, but that's very, very rare.
In the end, SR was destined to be the sort of game that would only fully hold the lasting attention of those that seek a challenge. Enter the Gungeon is very similar in this regard: There are two types of players in that game. The sort that will play it endlessly, and the sort that die at the first boss, a whole bunch of times, and leave. That's the case with a lot of games like this, and it's what I expected with this game. My own presence on the team for this one practically guaranteed that this would be the case, too. Even when I try to make something "easy" it comes out "murderous" instead. Of course, this is why the game has selectable difficulty options, which is very different than permanent effects that unlock. Even the hardcore crowd generally wont complain about those, because they can be ignored.
As I said I still rather regret that we don't have unlockables, but that's just from a "players sometimes find it satisfying" point of view. I *don't* regret that we don't have meta-progression that objectively helps the player with permanent benefits. I would have railed hard against that one.
Post by: chemical_art on August 31, 2016, 12:51:32 am
I would have railed hard against that one.
I rail against everything else you have said. The games you have described sound miserable.
On the one hand you describe that most players don't expect X except for Isaac, yet Isaac is by far the best selling of the genre. So who is the minority, really?
You have to pick an audience. I prefer the one that sells more. No coincidence, it is the audience that I am a part of.
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 01:42:02 am
I would have railed hard against that one.
I rail against everything else you have said. The games you have described sound miserable.
On the one hand you describe that most players don't expect X except for Isaac, yet Isaac is by far the best selling of the genre. So who is the minority, really?
You have to pick an audience. I prefer the one that sells more. No coincidence, it is the audience that I am a part of.
The vast majority of the genre, however, is not Isaac. Neither are all of the games that inspired it; they're all hard as nails. And considering how exceedingly frequent the "This game is way too easy, I'm getting kinda bored, where can I get mods?" complaints are for Isaac (seriously, it's REALLY frequent), even plenty of it's players don't actually see it in the way you describe. Even when looking at mods, the most popular mod is a MONSTROUS increase in difficulty to the base game. Like I said: fans coming from the roguelike side of things desire the challenge.
If Isaac's easy gameplay was genuinely the only thing people wanted, the genre would have collapsed by now, due to the extreme number of games within it that are very hard. Again, Isaac is the ONLY easy one. Yet games like Nuclear Throne, Gungeon, and various others do just fine (and those two in particular are on the extremely high end of the difficulty scale).
And one other thing to remember: Isaac's sales were massively boosted by YouTube. Certain Youtubers grabbed it, and repeatedly showed it off. Particularly Northernlion and Cobaltstreak, both of which practically made a JOB out of playing Isaac. The game could not have gotten better publicity, and this was all enhanced by the simple fact that Isaac was the first major one; it had no competition. It was a very new thing... a randomly generated roguelike that played like the dungeons of the original Zelda! It even had the first Zelda's interface. Of COURSE it was going to attract.
Not to mention that Isaac's core appeal is NOT it's low difficulty: It's the synergy mechanics. Few games of this type feel so genuinely different from one run to the next. Without that, the game would not have done well. It NEEDS that in order to hold the attention of it's audience. And that's absolutely not something we could have managed in SR here; it wasn't going to happen, and we knew that from the start, but that was also a desirable difference; trying to be Isaac by trying to make it all about synergies again would have been going too far into the clone zone.
Besides: Even Isaac requires practice. It's only "easy" in comparison to the boringness that is the AAA market. Most new players will die OFTEN just against Mom, provided they even reach her. They're not going to get any true progression until they defeat her, and even then, they'll get stuck at the Heart. Which has to be beaten *10* times in order to go further. The sort of player you describe that quits after 3 runs still wont stick with even that game (there are exceptions of course), particularly since only a few runs is not actually enough to give a sense of what the synergy mechanics can do.
As Chris said elsewhere, SR's biggest issue was a near total lack of visibility... consumers cannot buy what they do not know exists. If the high difficulty really was a genuine problem, we'd have gotten negative reviews and such left and right from even the smaller playerbase. Gamers tend to actually give negative reviews JUST because a game is too hard. But again, people going into this genre tend to already know about that; many of them simply wouldn't be there otherwise.
As for the games I describe sounding miserable... *shrug* Very subjective, and of course it works the other way around. I look at easy games as being fantastically boring; if it doesn't put up a true fight, how the hell am I supposed to get any satisfaction from beating it? How is my skill supposed to ever improve? In the sorts of games you're hinting at, there's no challenge to overcome. For me, very dull. I get nothing out of swatting aside weak foes that attack by dying in my general direction. Why others do get something out of it, I'll never understand.
Post by: kasnavada on August 31, 2016, 02:21:23 am
My opinion : people that claim to want challenge are also strong-headed, never stop beating the bushes and are generally noisy. Therefore they hog the forums, never stopping to make their opinion known... but in the end... Most players don't even get to the forum and for all I can tell, love the base game with no additions. Because mods download numbers are way way below game sales quantity.
I don't think that the silent majority has your point of view. They want a game that's enjoyable, and easy game can be enjoyable (Mario ? Diablo ?).
About the AAA market, it's boring "to you" but you're the minority actually. Otherwise it would not be the AAA market. It'd be an indy market.
SR's mistakes were no meta progression, too hard, genre completely saturated, no PR (not that the PR for raptor was better), bad reviews (I'll get to that in a moment). Game itself is nice and plays well, with good controls.
About the reviews, have you even read them ? How many, 90% are from Arcen's forum ? Felt that way at start. It looked like someone paid fans to write them. There were few if any "independant" reviews there at start. I think that must hurt the game the most. I mean I go there, I look at reviews, I see "fanboy review, fanboy review, fanboy review..."... Also, the fuss that people on the forum have made by responding to the first negative review ? Come on people. That was an horrible idea. That repulsed me.
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2016, 03:04:17 am
SR's mistakes were no meta progression, too hard, genre completely saturated, no PR (not that the PR for raptor was better), bad reviews (I'll get to that in a moment). Game itself is nice and plays well, with good controls.
What? Meta progression is the bane of roguelikes and "challenge-likes" games. If this game had meta progression it would either a) start out WAY too freaking hard or b) be so laughably easy in the end that you wouldn't want to play it. Instead you know exactly what to expect every time you start a new game, randomness notwithstanding and that is exactly how a game like this should be.
Also I can't really understand the "too hard" bit. On normal this game is fair and reasonable and completely beatable after 5-10 games once one starts to get the hang of pattern learning and movement. This coming from a guy who never plays shmups or bullet hells normally. On hard the game very much is hard, but that's why it's called "Hard".
I just don't get those two complaints. Like, at all. Meta progression especially. It would've ruined this game. Sure it wasn't a market success but as a game it's great, and meta progression would've nipped even that in the bud.
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 03:55:06 am
Misery, I side with Chemical art here.
My opinion : people that claim to want challenge are also strong-headed, never stop beating the bushes and are generally noisy. Therefore they hog the forums, never stopping to make their opinion known... but in the end... Most players don't even get to the forum and for all I can tell, love the base game with no additions. Because mods download numbers are way way below game sales quantity.
I don't think that the silent majority has your point of view. They want a game that's enjoyable, and easy game can be enjoyable (Mario ? Diablo ?).
About the AAA market, it's boring "to you" but you're the minority actually. Otherwise it would not be the AAA market. It'd be an indy market.
SR's mistakes were no meta progression, too hard, genre completely saturated, no PR (not that the PR for raptor was better), bad reviews (I'll get to that in a moment). Game itself is nice and plays well, with good controls.
About the reviews, have you even read them ? How many, 90% are from Arcen's forum ? Felt that way at start. It looked like someone paid fans to write them. There were few if any "independant" reviews there at start. I think that must hurt the game the most. I mean I go there, I look at reviews, I see "fanboy review, fanboy review, fanboy review..."... Also, the fuss that people on the forum have made by responding to the first negative review ? Come on people. That was an horrible idea. That repulsed me.
Actually, I mostly ignored reviews from Arcen's community. No offense to anyone here of course, but while those are nice they're also not as helpful, they're most likely to be biased. That, and for pretty much everyone that fits into that category, I'd already gotten a whole lot of feedback from them in the game's beta phase. The reviews would have just reiterated on that.
That being said though, we seem to have more then the usual amount of community members that absolutely will say they don't like something if that's the case. The really honest sort. Though, again, I'd already heard stuff from them on the forums here; none of that would have been new. Just reiteration. Though again, any reviews from anyone were still appreciated.
In other words, I was never concerned about the reviews, really. And one way or another, this is a genre I understand *a lot* about (stepping away from just Isaac here). I've played... most of the games in this genre. I've beaten most of them. And this genre is made of two other genres that, for about a decade, have been my core focus as gaming goes. I know the part of the audience that I'm speaking of. All of these things are the reason why I, someone with zero development experience aside from TLF's expansion (where I just designed Obscura patterns and balanced ship stats, and considering what TLF is that's not even remotely a big thing in it) was brought into this project at all. Outside of balance issues... which I absolutely expected would happen from day 1 (and which is also totally fine)... if there was something genuinely wrong with the game from the point of view that this side of the audience was coming from, I'd have spotted it (and the one thing that DID go wrong, the hitbox size, was indeed changed). I'm a very negative person and tend to be extremely critical of my own designs (hell, the enemies/bosses that I REALLY don't like in the game are all my own fault); I'm not immune to my own hate, is an unpleasant way to put it. Though obviously I don't consider high difficulty to be an issue, but then... neither does the subset of players I represent, which is the subset that many decisions within this game were designed to attract.
As for that bit about the response to a review.... I *think* I know which one you're talking about. I don't remember who else jumped in on that one, but I remember my own reasons for it, and frankly, have snapped at people about OTHER games too for those same reasons; I don't reserve stuff like that just for favorite developers like Arcen. The issue though was that my connection to the game should have stopped me from doing that; but as it's an oooooold habit, it happened anyway. Not long after I basically decided "You know what... screw it. Making ANY response wether positive or negative on a review is just asking for derp", and simply stopped.
Regardless though, meta progression of the type you guys bring up simply was not going to happen here. Again, EVEN ISAAC DOESNT DO IT. And even I consider Isaac to be my favorite of this genre; yes, moreso than SR. Doesn't matter that I worked on SR: Isaac is still my personal fave, probably always will be. But the point is, even that game, seen as the best of the best, has no stat-based meta progression.
Now, if you very specifically and ONLY mean UNLOCK-based meta progression... THAT is a different story. Though, as Chris pointed out elsewhere, we simply didn't have enough items in the game to do this. Isaac does it, a lot, but then Isaac has a deeply absurd number of items in it... and that's NOT counting things like consumables. But in SR? We had nowhere near a number that would have allowed us to do that in a satisfactory way. Which, again, is one thing I rather regret, even though I don't like unlocks myself.
But that other type of meta-progression absolutely was not happening.
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What? Meta progression is the bane of roguelikes and "challenge-likes" games. If this game had meta progression it would either a) start out WAY too freaking hard or b) be so laughably easy in the end that you wouldn't want to play it. Instead you know exactly what to expect every time you start a new game, randomness notwithstanding and that is exactly how a game like this should be.
Exactly. That "laughably easy in the end" is exactly why that idea is so loathed (and I don't mean by me), and why it was not going to happen in this game. That's basically my entire point summed up without my rambling, hah.
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Also I can't really understand the "too hard" bit. On normal this game is fair and reasonable and completely beatable after 5-10 games once one starts to get the hang of pattern learning and movement. This coming from a guy who never plays shmups or bullet hells normally. On hard the game very much is hard, but that's why it's called "Hard".
Aye, to a degree this is true. Normal mode is not balanced just by me, definitely not. That's the mode where Chris checked it over himself, (as did the others, everyone really) to make sure that it was at a level he thought it should be at. Many things I made were toned way the heck down for that mode. Hard mode, on the other hand, is my doing. But it's not intended that players START on hard unless they're already experts in the genre. It's meant for those that feel they've absolutely mastered normal mode. Normal mode, to most, seems doable, as you say here.
Though, even that is quite subjective. I still know people that think Normal is impossible. Even the earliest bosses.
Which I guess brings up a sticky issue with ALL of this: There's just no way to take a game like this and get the difficulty so that it's JUST RIGHT for everyone. It cant be done. There's ALWAYS going to be people that it's too hard for, or people that it's too easy for. This is what the difficulty modes are for (more casual players are meant to pick the lower ones) but a lot of people seem to have issues with the idea of picking the lower ones, so.... they just don't. I can understand that. The point is, we tried to make sure there was a wide range of challenge levels available here, but it's always going to be too extreme towards either end for some. There's ALWAYS going to be frustrated players with a game like this. Always. I hate that that has to be the case with this genre, but.... like I said, Isaac isn't immune to that too, and it's on the top of the pile, even to me.
Post by: Monkooky on August 31, 2016, 04:59:01 am
I'm not entirely sure how it works, and it's certainly not very visible, but if you go to Statistics, you can find a list of which items and enemies are unlocked.
To throw my boot into this moot argument, I find meta-progression dulls the sense of accomplishment you get when your umpteenth try finally succeeds.
Without meta-progression, if I beat this thing that was impossible before, it's because I got more skilled, personally improved.
With meta-progression, if I beat this thing that was impossible before, it's because I leveled up my damage to the point where it's easy or unlocked an op item.
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 05:18:51 am
So, uh.... I'm pretty sure there is meta progression in Starward Rogue. Unlock based progression, but meta-progression nonetheless.
I'm not entirely sure how it works, and it's certainly not very visible, but if you go to Statistics, you can find a list of which items and enemies are unlocked.
To throw my boot into this moot argument, I find meta-progression dulls the sense of accomplishment you get when your umpteenth try finally succeeds.
Without meta-progression, if I beat this thing that was impossible before, it's because I got more skilled, personally improved.
With meta-progression, if I beat this thing that was impossible before, it's because I leveled up my damage to the point where it's easy or unlocked an op item.
The reason I keep saying there's no unlock-progression is because the number of unlockables in the game is so amazingly low that I'm not actually sure why any of them are there (and also I keep forgetting they are there at all). And I'm pretty sure they're mostly enemies. I mean, seriously, I have no idea why any of them are locked at all.
The only true thing that's locked that actually matters whatsoever is the fact that you cannot get to floor 6 until you've defeated the Warden a couple of times. That's really it.
Post by: Monkooky on August 31, 2016, 05:31:03 am
So.... yeah basically no unlock progression is a fair assessment.
Post by: Logorouge on August 31, 2016, 08:02:22 pm
Regardless of my opinion on them, in this particular game they would be pointless. The enemies bullet patterns are pretty much all puzzle-like attacks you have to solve to be able to counter/dodge them. If you don't try to solve the "puzzles", you will die and no amount of extra health/attack/etc will save you from that. A player that gave up entirely on the game after a few runs I guarantee will still give up long before this kind of meta-progression can make any noticeable different.
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 10:21:36 pm
Oh. If we're talking about bonus stats meta-progression, that's an entirely different ball game.
Regardless of my opinion on them, in this particular game they would be pointless. The enemies bullet patterns are pretty much all puzzle-like attacks you have to solve to be able to counter/dodge them. If you don't try to solve the "puzzles", you will die and no amount of extra health/attack/etc will save you from that. A player that gave up entirely on the game after a few runs I guarantee will still give up long before this kind of meta-progression can make any noticeable different.
Aye, meta-progression of that type still DOES usually require you to at least accomplish a number of things before it'll start doing anything. If the player is done after like 3 runs, they're not going to see any of it anyway. It's a "happens slowly over time" sort of thing, after all.
And you're right for the most part about the nature of the bullet patterns. That's exactly what the more major patterns are designed to do, which is usually the case with bullet hell stuff. With more "traditional" types of shmup patterns, it's more about simple memorization and reacting, which is very different (and can be a lot more frustrating since if you have trouble REMEMBERING exactly what's going to happen, you're really likely to get hit even if you're technically very good at it) Though, as certain people have proven in those other couple of topics here, right now it's definitely possible to get enough damage going that those patterns don't matter; hoping we can get that resolved. This balance stuff is hard. If we can get it right though (and by "we" I mostly mean the others, I'm not good with the math stuff) then you're right, bits of extra attack or HP wont save you. They can help, sure, but that's not enough. Similar to how it is in Enter the Gungeon. You can get some powerful item/weapon combos going in that game, but unlike Isaac, you *need* quite a bit of skill to back those up regardless of how strong they are.
Post by: Pepisolo on September 01, 2016, 09:30:14 am
So, maybe I could choose a golden palette swapped White Gloss frame that starts out with Golden Minigun and the Golden Missile Launcher. I'd have to sacrifice some HP or missile or energy capacity to be able to grab this extra starting gear, but that'd be fine. Or I could create a more random mech, blue Flame Tank frame with the innate humble 10% off stores that starts with the Dead Eye Module, but no energy weapon (to save on point costs).
That's the gist anyway. The engine coding resources in creating something like this would be significant, but it would provide some cool meta progression unlocks. Plus, this would be a bit fresher and more roguelike than the usual beat boss unlock item one. Just an idea I had! :)