Author Topic: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?  (Read 31401 times)

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2016, 10:05:17 pm »
Yes you're right. The game was meant to have a limited free alpha, a paid beta, and then go live. I think we all underestimated exactly how close to the wire Chris had to take the company to need the full release's cash infusion.

So! Here we are a week after Arcen's worst selling, best quality release ever. Shit sux. Chris, Pablo, Keith, Blue, Erik, Quinn, Cath and any of the full timers I missed, I am so sorry it came to this. :'( Misery, Pepsisolo and the rest of the contractors, thanks for your work, the game wouldn't be what it is without you.

I've been trying to write this post since the thread went up, but what I think is second most important to say (first is above) keeps changing. I'm glad that you're going to move forward with both SBR and SR. I hope that you manage to turn them both into successes, because they're great. And I think you CAN turn SR into a success like AI War, but you're going to need to treat it like AI War.

You mentioned that things in the indie gaming business are starting to feel a lot more like 2009. There's a reason for that: indie gaming is experiencing a market correction that will end when enough indie developers have gone out of business to balance the supply of new indie games with the demand for new indie games. Jeff Vogel at Spiderweb Software has written about this a few times and he's on the money. Worth a read since it captures the state of the market as a whole, but it's not the immediate problem.

That is: no one knew about Starward Rogue. TLF did well, and people are still interested in SBR. That's no accident, it's directly correlated with how much you talked up those games during development. You've got the visibility and reputation and a number of major outlets and public figures who'll spread the word about your games when you provide the material. This can still happen with Starward Rogue. Start talking about the game. Write up the backstory, the mechs, the design process, interview the contractors and volunteers, post links on reddit and do some streams. It has to be semi-regular and consistent, and on the blog so that more than the core fans see it.

But why? Like the dark ages of 2009 should not the game either rise as it finds its audience and as the updates come, or fall? Problem: your direct competitors are numerous and they're throwing around all kinds of marketing. SR's battle is staying relevant, and it won't be if the only ones who see progress are the players. It will be slow. Remember how many years and expansions it took for AI War to really take off? You're looking at that here. But it needs a base before it can get to that point, and the base is as much your talking up the product as it is the product itself. When your, Chris, share your excitement, the community responds.

So from now on no more stealth releases! No more stealth expansions! Secret plans are all well and good except when you have to sell them at the end.  :)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2016, 02:12:25 am »
I have a lot I want to say, but I understand socially it will go very counter to what has been said on this thread. Before I write it all out, I need to know Chris will be OK with hearing it. It won't be filled with profanities or slander or anything of that nature, but rather the cold cynicism that I used to provide. I feel bad I have been away for such a long time so I couldn't provide my counter take in a group, and I feel I came far too late.
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Offline Castruccio

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2016, 02:16:11 am »
I feel I came far too late.

Batman and Superman say similar things when they let people down.  I suspect a forum member would not have been able to play the hero in this particular situation.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2016, 02:19:25 am »
I hardly expect I could right the ship if I came in a month or two earlier into this debate. But I was gone for well over a year and if I was more active I would have picked up on these warning signs and said something that isn't 100% supportive. Even now, I want to say things while not entirely pleasant would help things down the road. Someone has to say it.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2016, 02:38:23 am »
If you want to be honest and not worry about the rest of us, send it to Chris via PM.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2016, 04:53:28 am »
I trust Chris to tell me when/how to present how I present what I think, if it is desired. I know this is an intense time for him, so he shall decide the method, if at all.


Sidebar: The one method NOT to contact me is via email. I attempted to update but was told it was already taken, odds are on one late night i got confused and made a dummy account that took my current email and never rectified it.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2016, 06:11:27 am »

That is: no one knew about Starward Rogue. TLF did well, and people are still interested in SBR. That's no accident, it's directly correlated with how much you talked up those games during development. You've got the visibility and reputation and a number of major outlets and public figures who'll spread the word about your games when you provide the material. This can still happen with Starward Rogue. Start talking about the game. Write up the backstory, the mechs, the design process, interview the contractors and volunteers, post links on reddit and do some streams. It has to be semi-regular and consistent, and on the blog so that more than the core fans see it.

But why? Like the dark ages of 2009 should not the game either rise as it finds its audience and as the updates come, or fall? Problem: your direct competitors are numerous and they're throwing around all kinds of marketing. SR's battle is staying relevant, and it won't be if the only ones who see progress are the players. It will be slow. Remember how many years and expansions it took for AI War to really take off? You're looking at that here. But it needs a base before it can get to that point, and the base is as much your talking up the product as it is the product itself. When your, Chris, share your excitement, the community responds.

This bit I just want to say, definitely important.

The game can get places... but it's not going to be a quick thing (particularly without any major Youtubers grabbing it) and even if it seems to not always be helping, keeping up some sort of constant chatter about it is probably going to be important.  There's some things later that might give it a boost, but right now.... gotta keep pushing forth the fact that it's there.

Of course, where it will go in the near future is yet to be seen.  What I do know is that my own role in this looks like it aint ending anytime soon.  So I sure dont intend on giving up on it, nope.  I hope the others dont either.


And here's hoping Chris has time to come and read some of the stuff in here... I'd be interested to see his responses to some of it.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2016, 12:13:20 pm »
I trust Chris to tell me when/how to present how I present what I think, if it is desired. I know this is an intense time for him, so he shall decide the method, if at all.

No worries man.  If I have something I want to tell him and I don't want it public, I just pm him.  It was just a suggestion on my part to you.  Use it or don't, I don't care.  ;)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Vacuity

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2016, 03:04:19 pm »
Chris' post has been linked on Kotaku as well now.  I'm... I don't want to... I'm reluctant to look at the comments on Kotaku.  The articles are sometimes worth reading, but the comments sections tend to make my eyes roll so far that the local priests and exorcists start getting twitchy.

Oh, I looked, so far the comments are pleasantly well thought out.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2016, 06:47:52 pm »
hey so since this means that unless a miracle happens and star ward explodes that dominos is going to have to be laid does that miserys going to stay as the sole moderator?.
c.r

Offline simprosestudios

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2016, 09:21:14 pm »
I hardly expect I could right the ship if I came in a month or two earlier into this debate. But I was gone for well over a year and if I was more active I would have picked up on these warning signs and said something that isn't 100% supportive. Even now, I want to say things while not entirely pleasant would help things down the road. Someone has to say it.

I think (or suspect) I said a few of these things on the blog comments area...and I noticed mine was the ONLY comment that didn't get a response from Chris. :) So it probably won't be popular, I imagine.

The fact of the matter (and this is MHO as a Steam Dev who also makes niche games) is: The landscape is changing. Budgets and operations must be kept very tight ($80-$100K budget is crazy for a niche indie title nowadays to me), and strong marketing is essential for any niche indie product's success. An average of 3-8 new products go on Steam every day, and it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle. If even some of Arcen's fans and niche game fans were barely aware of the game, then there was a failure somewhere along the line.

I love Arcen's core principles and many of their games. I'm rooting for them to come out and kick butt and do well. The thing is, since AI Wars came out in '09, things have changed, and not always for the better for a niche indie to be found and be successful.

Offline Dominus Arbitrationis

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2016, 09:48:13 pm »
hey so since this means that unless a miracle happens and star ward explodes that dominos is going to have to be laid does that miserys going to stay as the sole moderator?.

No matter what happens with the game or Arcen in general, I am going to stay on and continue working with Chris for all of this. Basically the only thing that will change is I might end up being around less if I get other work too.
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Offline cupogoodness

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2016, 04:50:22 am »
So from now on no more stealth releases! No more stealth expansions! Secret plans are all well and good except when you have to sell them at the end.  :)

That (naturally) came down to a financial decision. The game wasn't ready to show until right ahead of release, and if we moved the release back for marketing purposes, it would mean laying off folks ahead of it.

To be clear to everyone mentioning marketing issues: This is not some normal thing we're super fond of doing, or intend to model our efforts after on future releases.

Offline zespri

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2016, 09:40:00 am »
What were the mid-2015 Steam store changes that were detrimental to sales?

Offline nas1m

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Re: Great work on Starward Rogue, team! Now you’re all laid off...?
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2016, 10:29:30 am »
What were the mid-2015 Steam store changes that were detrimental to sales?
I think the visibility of games that are on sale changed in a way that affected their sales negatively, presumably related to Steam preferably showing you games it "thinks" you have an interest in?
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