Energy, shields, and basic loot

[Cinth]

Yeah, agreed.

Now, that being said, also worth keeping in mind that the overall difficulty of the game may change quite a bit as things continue to get balanced.  There's quite a number of items that just arent very helpful right now, that really should be (like consumables). 

Though, my suggestion of another added difficulty mode is still there.  One way or another, Hard is such a huge jump up from Normal because I'm not good at avoiding difficulty spikes.  So having an "in between" one using the same patterns, but giving the player some extra stuff, might not be a bad idea for those that want to try their hand at them.

So a Normal + then.  Normal HP mod with Hard difficulty.  That shouldn't be hard to implement.  <I say that knowing full well what has to be done>

[chemical_art]

Shields are exploitable because of their nature.

Firstly, they already recharge between rooms as it is.  HP does not; you must gather more to bring it back up.

It is precisely that reason that I do not understand how an item that lets you regain HP from killing units (an aggressive action that really cannot be farmed unless a unit spawns more units) is somehow less exploitable then an item that lets you regen shields using those exact same mechanics within a room. Regaining HP is harder by default, yet not an exploit?

As for the HP damage, i never really noticed that on normal. Does it happen there? Because it occurs beyond normal then really you are balancing game mechanics on beyond average difficulties, which is not good.

[Misery]

Shields are exploitable because of their nature.

Firstly, they already recharge between rooms as it is.  HP does not; you must gather more to bring it back up.

It is precisely that reason that I do not understand how an item that lets you regain HP from killing units (an aggressive action that really cannot be farmed unless a unit spawns more units) is somehow less exploitable then an item that lets you regen shields using those exact same mechanics within a room. Regaining HP is harder by default, yet not an exploit?

As for the HP damage, i never really noticed that on normal. Does it happen there? Because it occurs beyond normal then really you are balancing game mechanics on beyond average difficulties, which is not good.

I dont balance things around Hard mode.  I balance Hard mode around the default states of Normal, just with increased patterns.

It does occur on Normal, yes.   The further you are into the game, the harder things hit. 

They also have individual attack values defined in the XML.  MOST things have a default of 2 to their damage value.  But not all of them.  And future ones may end up having higher values more commonly.   To be honest, a huge part of the reason why most things attack with that low damage value is that I kept forgetting the stat was there.  Some more recent things now hit a bit harder by default.  And then that damage is further altered by how far you are in the game.

To your shields though, none of this matters.  One hit, one shield.  Does two points of damage?  Seven?  One shield.

The point is, shields are the game's ultimate defense already, AND they already are just outright handed back to you just by going into a door.  They're already almost done too far.  They work... but only barely, and they are there only out of necessity (the RNG bit).   Shield regen or pickups just pushes it too far.  Hell, the "get a second shield" perk is already one of the best things in the game that you can get (when it's there, there's no reason NOT to take it; it's way better than a HP or attack increase, or.... most anything else).  The ability to simply regain the shield in any form DURING a room would simply be too far.

As I said, it's one of those things that's definitely not happening.  And the game is already balanced around the current setup anyway. 

For players that want maximum shield benefit... just get the perk (or item) that gives you another shield.

[chemical_art]

Shields are exploitable because of their nature.

Firstly, they already recharge between rooms as it is.  HP does not; you must gather more to bring it back up.

It is precisely that reason that I do not understand how an item that lets you regain HP from killing units (an aggressive action that really cannot be farmed unless a unit spawns more units) is somehow less exploitable then an item that lets you regen shields using those exact same mechanics within a room. Regaining HP is harder by default, yet not an exploit?

As for the HP damage, i never really noticed that on normal. Does it happen there? Because it occurs beyond normal then really you are balancing game mechanics on beyond average difficulties, which is not good.

I dont balance things around Hard mode.  I balance Hard mode around the default states of Normal, just with increased patterns.

It does occur on Normal, yes.   The further you are into the game, the harder things hit. 

They also have individual attack values defined in the XML.  MOST things have a default of 2 to their damage value.  But not all of them.  And future ones may end up having higher values more commonly.   To be honest, a huge part of the reason why most things attack with that low damage value is that I kept forgetting the stat was there.  Some more recent things now hit a bit harder by default.  And then that damage is further altered by how far you are in the game.

To your shields though, none of this matters.  One hit, one shield.  Does two points of damage?  Seven?  One shield.

The point is, shields are the game's ultimate defense already, AND they already are just outright handed back to you just by going into a door.  They're already almost done too far.  They work... but only barely, and they are there only out of necessity (the RNG bit).   Shield regen or pickups just pushes it too far.  Hell, the "get a second shield" perk is already one of the best things in the game that you can get (when it's there, there's no reason NOT to take it; it's way better than a HP or attack increase, or.... most anything else).  The ability to simply regain the shield in any form DURING a room would simply be too far.

As I said, it's one of those things that's definitely not happening.  And the game is already balanced around the current setup anyway. 

For players that want maximum shield benefit... just get the perk (or item) that gives you another shield.

I...am just going to stop trying to contribute. I feel like we are just on such different wavelengths. It is such an sad feeling. To know I am talking to someone who is of incredible intellect however knowing that for some reason we arrive at such different conclusions. Suddenly this game becomes clear, and not only am I not suited to for it, I am not even suited to contribute to it.

I concede. This game is not for me. I will go back my arcen niche of strategy games. It seems at least for this game Arcen has moved on in a new direction and I cannot adapt to this change.

I wish this game well. It has a long way to go compared to the strategy games in terms of success.

[Cinth]

It is precisely that reason that I do not understand how an item that lets you regain HP from killing units (an aggressive action that really cannot be farmed unless a unit spawns more units) is somehow less exploitable then an item that lets you regen shields using those exact same mechanics within a room. Regaining HP is harder by default, yet not an exploit?

As for the HP damage, i never really noticed that on normal. Does it happen there? Because it occurs beyond normal then really you are balancing game mechanics on beyond average difficulties, which is not good.

HP are a finite resource.  What drops on a floor is it. That's all there is.  Shields recharge every time you change rooms.  They are infinite.  Sooner or later the amount of HP available per floor is likely to decrease overall.

I...am just going to stop trying to contribute. I feel like we are just on such different wavelengths. It is such an sad feeling. To know I am talking to someone who is of incredible intellect however knowing that for some reason we arrive at such different conclusions. Suddenly this game becomes clear, and not only am I not suited to for it, I am not even suited to contribute to it.

I concede. This game is not for me. I will go back my arcen niche of strategy games. It seems at least for this game Arcen has moved on in a new direction and I cannot adapt to this change.

I wish this game well. It has a long way to go compared to the strategy games in terms of success.

I'm going to add that Misery isn't the only one working on the balance in the game.  You know just as well that all kinds of feedback generate ideas and discussion.  It's a good thing that usually makes the games better.  I hope after some time you reevaluate this statement and change your mind.  Butting heads over ideas shouldn't result in this at all (we've butted heads over in AI War's forum a few times and that hasn't changed anything). 

[Misery]

I...am just going to stop trying to contribute. I feel like we are just on such different wavelengths. It is such an sad feeling. To know I am talking to someone who is of incredible intellect however knowing that for some reason we arrive at such different conclusions. Suddenly this game becomes clear, and not only am I not suited to for it, I am not even suited to contribute to it.

I concede. This game is not for me. I will go back my arcen niche of strategy games. It seems at least for this game Arcen has moved on in a new direction and I cannot adapt to this change.

I wish this game well. It has a long way to go compared to the strategy games in terms of success.

As Cinth says, all feedback is good stuff.  Positive, negative... the more the better, so long as the person supplying it is being honest.  And all of that feedback is always considered. 

And it's totally fine to want to contribute... that too is appreciated.  But when contributing ideas or even content, you have to understand that there's a chance it simply wont be taken/used, or changes made.  If we just said "Oh, sure!" to every idea that was handed over, the game would be a total mess.

To be totally honest, negative as I am, I still dont exactly enjoy having to shoot down anyone's ideas.  It's not a fun thing to do, particularly knowing that those ideas probably had alot of thought put into them.  But it's got to be done sometimes.  And dont get me wrong: I know how aggravating it can be when you have an idea, but it does indeed get shot down.  I've certainly had my own fair share of ideas that just bounce off of people, developers or otherwise.  They make the decision not to use those ideas or make changes.  Not a fun moment, but as it's how it works, I just deal with it.

And it's not like there wasnt any thought into the whole shield/energy/whatever regen idea during development, for that matter.  I had that discussion with Chris early on, over the course of a good number of emails, since it was important to the overall balance and setup of the game and needed to be nailed down sooner rather than later.  It wasnt a decision made super quickly.  Alot of logic and thinking went into it.


It's not really a matter of being on different wavelengths.  It's just that some ideas arent always going to match up to what the other person is also thinking.   My own viewpoints on this and the stances I take are all dictated by the overly absurd amount of time I've spent with game of both of the genres that make up this game; this is one of the reasons why, on certain very specific things such as this, I'll refuse to budge.  There arent actually all that many things like that in the game.  Only a very few, actually, when it comes to things like item balance or mechanics.  And of course I'll make any major pattern changes as I see fit (which typically translates to "fix the damn Warden again" most of the time).  But in an overall sense, I"m not going to just leap in and say no to everything automatically.  I'm aware I tend to be very vocal when I *do* say no, so that might make it seem like I'm jumping at that more than I am. 

And as Cinth also said, I'm not the only one working on balance stuffs here.  It'd take bloody forever if that was the case.  We've all been sending ideas back and forth and have all tended to be working on certain specific things (I'm dealing mostly with weapons right now and some random other items that have occurred to me, Cinth spent some quality time with items/perks that give stat changes and such, and Pepisolo did crazy science stuff to drones).

Really, I dont want to see some sort of unpleasant negative outcome coming from a discussion like this.  I'm not trying to dissuade you from the game or from contributing or giving feedback or anything.   If I've somehow given that impression, I apologize for that (It wouldnt be the first time I've done something like that without realizing it).  As far as I"m concerned, the whole thing is just a very typical design debate; no genuine arguing or anger or any of that stuff happening.  So I'll admit that I"m not entirely latching onto what the problem is as far as the communication/social aspect goes; if someone wants to point out some damn stupid thing I've said without realizing it, feel free to do so, as I am a bit lost here.

Either way, I hope you change your mind.