Author Topic: Energy, shields, and basic loot  (Read 7988 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2016, 08:39:25 pm »
Don't nerf the STG-4377 too much (or at all)! D:

It's one of the few secondary weapons I look forward to finding with the white gloss mech. >.<

Personally, I'd prefer the STG-4377 to stay out there as is and just swap the starting weapons on the green envy and possibly red shift to something else.

It's getting a change, I think, but not necessarily the one you're expecting.  Total flat nerfs arent ALWAYS the way to go.  For some things, sure, but for others, no.

Though, the fact that it's one of the few you look forward to is one of the issues.  One thing I really want to do is make it so that there are plenty more of those weapons that are appealing and interesting.  Right now, that's just not the case for most players (and I agree with that when playing it myself too).

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2016, 09:55:59 pm »
Don't nerf the STG-4377 too much (or at all)! D:

It's one of the few secondary weapons I look forward to finding with the white gloss mech. >.<

Personally, I'd prefer the STG-4377 to stay out there as is and just swap the starting weapons on the green envy and possibly red shift to something else.

It's getting a change, I think, but not necessarily the one you're expecting.  Total flat nerfs arent ALWAYS the way to go.  For some things, sure, but for others, no.

Though, the fact that it's one of the few you look forward to is one of the issues.  One thing I really want to do is make it so that there are plenty more of those weapons that are appealing and interesting.  Right now, that's just not the case for most players (and I agree with that when playing it myself too).
yea I really think that stg needs a nerf and has needed a nerf for a while when I have it I have no interest in literally nothing else which is a shame because the one time that I did try something else out(the flame lance) I loved it bits the damage the range and the piercing were all so dam good.
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Offline ptarth

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2016, 07:15:51 pm »
I'm revisiting the thread based on Hearteater's post in the player weapon thread.

  • Item Drops
    • I'm okay with only good drops. I'd like to see an energy heal drop added.
  • Energy Tank
    • I don't think the complexity of the energy tank idea is necessary. A simple consumable that refills energy to max would be sufficient. Actually, on that note having a consumable healing item that refills you to max (if there isn't one already) would be good. I know there is a refill missiles to max consumable. 
  • Energy Regen
    • I'm for giving mechs an energy regeneration stat (in addition to the refilling of energy on room change).
  • Shield Regen
    • I'm for giving mechs rechargeable shields after X units of time from entering a room. I'm not very good at the game. 
  • Run Options
    • Having an option when you start a run to change between different game types: Bullet Hell, Shoot'em up, etc, may satisfy the different groups (similar to the momentum movement mode toggle). The setting would disable or enable things like shield and energy regen inside of rooms.
  • EMP
    • I don't understand the item portion of your idea. However, I think having EMP mines exist as obstacles as regular mines do would be fine. Additionally, having a secondary weapon that does an EMP burst around the player (or at distance like a nuke) would be neat. There would need to be resistance_to_EMP tag for game entities added wherein the duration of the EMP is multiplied by that value.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2016, 07:21:19 pm »
I understand energy tanks being too complex for the value added. What about basic loot that is +1 or +2 max energy? It sort of replaces the cheap shop +4 energy item though.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2016, 07:35:01 pm »
I understand energy tanks being too complex for the value added. What about basic loot that is +1 or +2 max energy? It sort of replaces the cheap shop +4 energy item though.

My initial thought is that balancing the spawn rate is going to be tricky. Having them spawn infrequently means they don't really matter (especially given the high energy consumption rate of secondaries) alternatively, too high a spawn rate would result in too much energy available. All of the current drops are expendables (credits, missiles, health, experience, key cards, etc) which doesn't fit with the permanent upgrade. In contrast there are the health shards (collect 8 to gain a life), so there is a similar existing system that we could modify instead.

I believe the desired goal of your proposal is to introduce ways to increase max energy (or energy regen rate which I favor). Taking that as our starting point and combining it with existing system, we could:
  • Add an increase to max energy for picking up a health shard.
  • Add an increase to max energy for collecting 8 health shards.
  • Add a energy shard as an alternative drop for the health shard (collect 8 to increase max energy, this would take a lot of code)
My preference would be the first option. It would also grant players an immediate bonus for health shard collection (max energy) and still retain the set collection bonus (+1 max health).
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2016, 07:46:34 pm »
I'd favor the 3rd option, although I'd just make 1 energy shard pickup grant X energy (5 or 10?). This also has the benefit of having at least two drop possiblities from breaking open a block. However, a side-effect of this will be fewer health shard pick-ups, since energy shards would be the result of breaking open those blocks now. It would probably be necessary to reduce the needed health shards by some amount, which helps at making them feel more rewarding because you don't need as many.

For comparison, I generally get around 20ish health shards by floor 5. If the distribution of health/energy shards was 50%, and health shards per +1 max health halved, then on average I'd still get +2 max health, but also have gained +100 energy (with +10/e-shard).

Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2016, 09:07:21 pm »
I'm going to be unpleasant today and shoot some of these down:

Shield regen:  Not happening.  Leads to player obsession with the "sit and wait in a corner" strategy.  I've seen other games do this, and it's the sort of thing that ruins the entire game because it causes very drastic slowdown to the pacing.  You could say "well you dont HAVE to use it when playing though" but the basic mentality of most players is "it's there, it protects, so I'll do it".  And THEN they'll complain about it: "You spend half of the game waiting in corners for your weapon to recharge!  It's so boring and slow! THUMBS DOWN". Over and over and over again. It's just like how players complain about grinding in RPGs that dont actually FORCE it; the grinding is POSSIBLE, and the logic is "it makes me stronger, it makes the next part easy", so they'll all do it, and while it's optional, they'll then complain.  This is also why there is no energy regen.  Originally, that was supposed to be a thing, as you might remember from early in the alpha, but that exact reasoning occurred to me, so it isnt.

Energy regen:  No.  Reasons listed above.  Was tried, didn't work.

Energy pickups:  Honestly, I dont see the point of this one.  Typically you already have good enough amounts of energy.  And the amount per pickup would be very difficult to get right, since the amount of energy you can carry from the start, as well as the amount used per shot, varies so wildly.  Sounds like trouble.  I dont know about other players, but I also wouldnt really be going after those myself; if it makes health shards drop to only 50% appearance, and thus become an uncertainty, they become less appealing (and energy is worthless if you dont have a good energy weapon, too).  Could also end up distorting the already screwy balance of energy weapons as they are now if you're just finding these all over the place.  The current mechanics of buying more or getting more through levelling up already suffice pretty well.

Run options:  The only way to alter the "bullet hell" feel of the game or whatever would be to actually alter *all* of the patterns.  And that, just... no.  Mentally, they wont associate things like regen or whatever with those concepts.  There's no real need, anyway.  The game is very generous with it's shield mechanic and tendency for high HP, and those that want more bullet-related craziness can up the difficulty (which is what a change to "bullet hell" always does anyway).  Doing things like removing shields as an option also wouldnt work; a huge reason why those are there is a buffer against RNG damage.  There's no way to totally stop that from happening, so the shields exist largely for that reason.

Energy refill consumable: Okay.




Offline chemical_art

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2016, 09:39:37 pm »
If regen to be done (shield or energy) why not make it a bit like the current vampire mod. There is an X% chance of regaining energy/shield after destroying an enemy. Can't really hide while destroying enemies.

I do not feel like it should be done in to short change other options (so for example energy shards come instead of health shards) but putting them down as addition perks and/or items could be interesting.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2016, 09:50:12 pm »
If regen to be done (shield or energy) why not make it a bit like the current vampire mod. There is an X% chance of regaining energy/shield after destroying an enemy. Can't really hide while destroying enemies.

I do not feel like it should be done in to short change other options (so for example energy shards come instead of health shards) but putting them down as addition perks and/or items could be interesting.

Adding it as a default mechanic on kill wouldnt work either.  In the end, it's still one of those things that'd massively alter the game's balance.  Bad idea as it'd just cause all sorts of other problems; there's a reason why items that do things like that tend to be in sacrifice rooms, or just hard to get in some way.  And overall, energy weapons have their limits for reasons.  Well... conceptually, anyway.

I'll remind everyone that energy weapons are totally in flux right now (internally that is, none of you are seeing these changes yet).  One reason why they may not seem helpful enough.... is because they just genuinely arent helpful enough due to their stats and setup, not because of the lack of some sort of energy regen or whatever.  This is one of the things I'm working on dealing with right now, so expect the balance of energy weapons to change a whole bunch.  Trying to make them alot more useful and interesting and desirable in a general sense, as opposed to so many of them just being too weak and whatnot as they are right now.  Also I nerfed the hell out of the STG.  It had it coming.

I dont think there's a SHIELD regen item specifically, and if there isnt, there probably shouldnt be.  Shields are by far the most exploitable things in the entire game if not handled very carefully. 

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2016, 10:02:15 pm »

I dont think there's a SHIELD regen item specifically, and if there isnt, there probably shouldnt be.  Shields are by far the most exploitable things in the entire game if not handled very carefully.

I really don't know how you can exploit them. There are most useful in non-boss rooms because those are the best chances you can use their "replenishing" nature. In bosses they are trivial. Having them tied to deaths will not fundamentally alter this mechanic: Bosses relatively rarely have multiple spawns. There are few, if any, enemies that infinitely create spawns.

I don't understand how a mechanic that replenishes shields on death is exploitable, while one that does this already with health does not. If anything health would be more exploitable so it doesn't naturally regen on its own and has a higher stock.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2016, 10:15:07 pm »

I dont think there's a SHIELD regen item specifically, and if there isnt, there probably shouldnt be.  Shields are by far the most exploitable things in the entire game if not handled very carefully.

I really don't know how you can exploit them. There are most useful in non-boss rooms because those are the best chances you can use their "replenishing" nature. In bosses they are trivial. Having them tied to deaths will not fundamentally alter this mechanic: Bosses relatively rarely have multiple spawns. There are few, if any, enemies that infinitely create spawns.

I don't understand how a mechanic that replenishes shields on death is exploitable, while one that does this already with health does not. If anything health would be more exploitable so it doesn't naturally regen on its own and has a higher stock.


Shields are exploitable because of their nature.

Firstly, they already recharge between rooms as it is.  HP does not; you must gather more to bring it back up.

But secondly, shields ignore damage levels.  On later stages, enemies can hit alot harder.  A shot might take away, say, 7HP at once, or something like that.   But to your shields... this difference literally doesnt exist.  You simply always lose just one shield. 

That's why shields arent really being messed with.  Or at least, part of why.  Some players already consider them OP as hell (and when you have two of them at once, I totally agree; I dont even take the extra shield perks or items anymore because they just drain the hell out of the difficulty), and any form of regen on them is a game-breaker and balance-wrecker.

The only way something like that would work or happen would be to have it as an Incredibility item (those arent meant to work with the game's balance anyway).  And in that case, it'd probably come with quite the hefty downside just to keep it from being boring (no idea what that'd be).


Also the HP regen thing CAN be pretty wonky... particularly when you've got shields protecting that HP as you regain it.  It's a powerful effect in any game of this type.  But it's not at the point of being an imbalanced mess in this one.  It's certainly not perfect... but it's okay for now.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2016, 11:17:45 pm »
So, part of the issue seems to be where and what people think this game is. I am a super casual non-touhou sorta fellow. I prefer brawlers/beat'em up/shoot'em ups (which is the other half of this hybrid). That's also how I play Starward Rogue (and perhaps why I'm not very good). That also very strongly represented in the types of enemies I've made.

For me, a shield system that regenerates isn't this horrible thing that makes the game far too casual (I'm already too casual by all Touhou standards). It's a mix between the tons of health available at easy and the more moderate levels available at normal. Consider FPSes, many of them have switched over to a regenerating shield system, examples include Halo and Mass Effect. I not sure that people generally complain that those games are slow and frustrating due to the shield regeneration mechanic. I like the level and type of difficulty in arcade classics such as Shadows over Mystara. It is possible to beat the game without getting any health ups, but other people end up having to buy new lives all the time. And the game is still fun. So regenerating shields being a bad mechanic is strongly dependent on the type of game you are playing.

From my perspective nothing I've encountered, even the bullet hellish touhou-ish bosses, suggest my way of playing won't work. And given that, that's where my perspective is going to continue to come from. I want outrageous Contra like weapons and I'm okay with the lethality of Metal Slug. Which seems is still very different from the version of the game that other people are playing. And that's okay for me.  I could even make the changes to make it more my style of game (after these 18 other things that I need to build first). I'm pretty sure there are other people out there like me, those who aren't into the hard core Touhou/Issac lifestyle.

Which is where the different switch in game type settings come from. Right now, the harder difficulty levels mimic Touhou whereas the lower mimic brawlers. But I'd like to fight my own bosses on hard (and die), and to do that I'd need to mod my super casual settings in. So perhaps instead of linking touhouness to difficulty have a touhou/brawler setting. On touhou Misery can have his Misery, and on brawler I can have my energy regeneration, shield regeneration, over-powered weapons, and multi-use consumables.

Does it need official support? Maybe.
Would it split the community? Maybe.

Quote
...Energy regen:  [bad]...
...Energy pickups:  [bad]...

Just remember that your skill level is way beyond the skill level of most players. As a good rule of thumb, if you have more than 100 games on Steam you are different than 99% of the people who use Steam. And of that 1%, I'm guessing less than 1% are even in the ballpark of your level of proficiency. The casual player isn't even in your ballpark, but he is going to be playing the game.

Side note: Given massive energy weapon re-balancing is underway, statements about the worth and necessity of energy items are a bit premature. I mean sure, there are some general guidelines, but the energy scarcity is part of how the balance is being constructed. Although, I'm in no position to talk since you know all of this already.

Quote
The only way to alter the "bullet hell" feel of the game or whatever would be to actually alter *all* of the patterns.

I'm also not sure about this one. I feel it is just fine as a brawler. I just want enough copies to be sold to allow the development of the multiplayer expansion.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2016, 11:54:14 pm »
So, part of the issue seems to be where and what people think this game is. I am a super casual non-touhou sorta fellow. I prefer brawlers/beat'em up/shoot'em ups (which is the other half of this hybrid). That's also how I play Starward Rogue (and perhaps why I'm not very good). That also very strongly represented in the types of enemies I've made.

For me, a shield system that regenerates isn't this horrible thing that makes the game far too casual (I'm already too casual by all Touhou standards). It's a mix between the tons of health available at easy and the more moderate levels available at normal. Consider FPSes, many of them have switched over to a regenerating shield system, examples include Halo and Mass Effect. I not sure that people generally complain that those games are slow and frustrating due to the shield regeneration mechanic. I like the level and type of difficulty in arcade classics such as Shadows over Mystara. It is possible to beat the game without getting any health ups, but other people end up having to buy new lives all the time. And the game is still fun. So regenerating shields being a bad mechanic is strongly dependent on the type of game you are playing.

From my perspective nothing I've encountered, even the bullet hellish touhou-ish bosses, suggest my way of playing won't work. And given that, that's where my perspective is going to continue to come from. I want outrageous Contra like weapons and I'm okay with the lethality of Metal Slug. Which seems is still very different from the version of the game that other people are playing. And that's okay for me.  I could even make the changes to make it more my style of game (after these 18 other things that I need to build first). I'm pretty sure there are other people out there like me, those who aren't into the hard core Touhou/Issac lifestyle.

Which is where the different switch in game type settings come from. Right now, the harder difficulty levels mimic Touhou whereas the lower mimic brawlers. But I'd like to fight my own bosses on hard (and die), and to do that I'd need to mod my super casual settings in. So perhaps instead of linking touhouness to difficulty have a touhou/brawler setting. On touhou Misery can have his Misery, and on brawler I can have my energy regeneration, shield regeneration, over-powered weapons, and multi-use consumables.

Does it need official support? Maybe.
Would it split the community? Maybe.

Quote
...Energy regen:  [bad]...
...Energy pickups:  [bad]...

Just remember that your skill level is way beyond the skill level of most players. As a good rule of thumb, if you have more than 100 games on Steam you are different than 99% of the people who use Steam. And of that 1%, I'm guessing less than 1% are even in the ballpark of your level of proficiency. The casual player isn't even in your ballpark, but he is going to be playing the game.

Side note: Given massive energy weapon re-balancing is underway, statements about the worth and necessity of energy items are a bit premature. I mean sure, there are some general guidelines, but the energy scarcity is part of how the balance is being constructed. Although, I'm in no position to talk since you know all of this already.

Quote
The only way to alter the "bullet hell" feel of the game or whatever would be to actually alter *all* of the patterns.

I'm also not sure about this one. I feel it is just fine as a brawler. I just want enough copies to be sold to allow the development of the multiplayer expansion.

The bit about energy, shield, or health regen has nothing to do with skill level.  Abusing it involves.... not doing anything at all.  No dodging, no fighting.  You get behind a block and you just wait.  THAT is the problem.  It was an immediate issue during early development (and one that I've already discussed a bunch with Chris, too), and again, I've seen it before in other games; players of ALL levels abuse it.  For low-level players it just makes the game really easy (and really slow).  For high-level players it makes it impossible to lose (and really slow).  That's the problem with regen systems in anything like this.  And something that damages the game's pacing that much just cannot be introduced.  That's a sale-killer sort of thing.

It's also not going to help you against the bosses anyway, because you cant step outside of them. So it's not going to change the "bosses are too hard on Hard" bit, in relation to the ones I've designed. If they're what's killing you, they'll probably still do it, since there's nothing to hide behind.  However, 95% of the game is normal rooms, and that's where it's exploitable as all hell on all difficulties. 

Think of it this way:  Consider one of the oldest FPS games, Doom, right?  Doom was a pretty wild run-&-gun sort of thing.  You were encouraged to really dive out there and get into the fray, and take your enemies down fast.  That game used normal health. When you needed more... guess what, you had to fight for it.  You couldnt just wait for the game to magically heal you; one way or another, you WERE going out there to deal with those enemies directly. The game's pacing ended up being very fast, because simply standing there accomplished nothing, and the game's challenge also never waned.  Nowadays?  Everything uses regenerating health.... so EVERY FPS boils down to sitting behind walls for most of it when you're regenerating, and occaisionally popping out to take shots.  Aside from being dull, they're VERY slow compared to those older games, and actually getting hit doesnt really matter all that much because you only need to do another phase of sitting behind a wall before you're ready to pop back out and get shot some more.  Skill is not encouraged here (and one way or another, this game is part roguelike; do something to discourage skill and you've got instant problems. The complaints we sometimes hear about the shield mechanic as it already is confirms this), particularly when damage just doesnt matter much.  This doesnt go JUST for health or shields though.  Energy, whatever, can be exploited in the same way.  Pop out, use guns + energy to attack, and when energy is drained, sit back and wait some more. And then they'll get bored because it's a shmuppy game with no action happening and very slow pacing. Trust me, players WILL do this.  They absolutely will.  Even most of those that are after a true challenge in a game like this will still do it; there's a natural tendency towards it, particularly with so many games these days putting players in that automatic mindset with such mechanics.

Except that it's alot worse in a game like this than it is in something like an FPS.  Particularly for those that are attracted by the shmup aspect of the game; that group already has enough complaints about the mere fact that this game uses a freaking healthbar or shields, but they accept it at least a bit because it's like Isaac.  Give constant regen of any sort though, and, well... I'll just put it this way, *I* wouldnt buy it either.   When the game hits any point where I can genuinely say that I would not purchase it in that state, something's very wrong.

I mean, even Isaac avoids this one like the plague.   Just think about that for a second.  Even Isaac, with it's monstrous combo effects, avoids doing this.  There's ONE way to regenerate in that via time. (EDIT: No, wait, there's two, but they're both slower than a brick in sludge, to the point where they're totally worthless).  And it's so unbelievably slow that you'd have to sit in a single room for like 60 minutes for it to do something useful.  And that's it.  Even that game just refuses to do this, and for good reason.

It's one of those occaisional things I wont be budging on, definitely.

Now, one thing that might be a better idea would be to simply add another difficulty level.   Something like Hard, with those patterns, but you start with, say, extra HP and an extra shield, to allow you to either get used to the patterns before REALLY playing Hard mode, or to just let you experience them without dying quite so easily.  It would give players something they can step up from past normal without it being AS MUCH of a step as Hard mode currently is.  Sort of a midway point.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 11:58:53 pm by Misery »

Offline Cinth

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2016, 12:11:51 am »
I don't have any relevant experience playing games in either genre (Rogue - SHUMP) and I pretty much agree with Misery here.  Regenerating anything doesn't benefit the game at all.  Need hp? Find a drop.  Need shields or energy?  Move to another room. 
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Offline Misery

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Re: Energy, shields, and basic loot
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2016, 12:17:08 am »
Yeah, agreed.

Now, that being said, also worth keeping in mind that the overall difficulty of the game may change quite a bit as things continue to get balanced.  There's quite a number of items that just arent very helpful right now, that really should be (like consumables). 

Though, my suggestion of another added difficulty mode is still there.  One way or another, Hard is such a huge jump up from Normal because I'm not good at avoiding difficulty spikes.  So having an "in between" one using the same patterns, but giving the player some extra stuff, might not be a bad idea for those that want to try their hand at them.

 

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