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Games => Starward Rogue => Topic started by: Pepisolo on February 05, 2018, 08:37:47 PM

Title: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 05, 2018, 08:37:47 PM
OK, so this is something that probably isn't happening, although maybe, but probably not, but maybe, but... if there was to be an AI War themed mech, what would it look like? What abilities would it have? What would we call it? What would the design be? Any thoughts? I just thought I'd ask this as a bit of fun! :)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 05, 2018, 09:23:33 PM
Neinzul Mech, with a swarm of familiars (temporary or not). Fun for all the family!  >D
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 05, 2018, 09:24:04 PM
Starward Rogue makes several nodes to The last Federation with several weapons, that were made by the iconic races of this game.
Maybe we can have some weapons from AI War races too? Spire photon lance, Neinzul drone launcher, Zenith Devourer module? These are just some names/ideas I have but I honestly have no idea what these kind of things would actually do.
Hell, why not go with a human-themed weapon?

An entire Mech inspired by Ai War would however be hard because, well, AI War never had any ground combat for it to work out.
If anything, it would be a Raptor they would have used.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Whistler on February 05, 2018, 10:24:42 PM
Botnet mech! Zombie boss fights :D
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 06, 2018, 06:29:56 AM
All we need is a cross between this:

(https://forums.arcengames.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19997.0;attach=10876;image)

And this:

(https://forums.arcengames.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19997.0;attach=10878;image)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 06, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
Hmm... A Mech that has enemy damage scaled based on its "threat" level, which means in this case its own damage? Does not sound that exciting :D
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 06, 2018, 11:12:57 PM
Hmm... A Mech that has enemy damage scaled based on its "threat" level, which means in this case its own damage? Does not sound that exciting :D

Doing more damage based on health % is something one weapon we already have does.

That also gave me an idea for a new incredibility; one where the longer the player goes without taking a hit, the more damage they'll take when they finally do.
As a bonus, they'll also deal more damage.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 07, 2018, 05:17:23 PM
Hmm... A Mech that has enemy damage scaled based on its "threat" level, which means in this case its own damage? Does not sound that exciting :D

Doing more damage based on health % is something one weapon we already have does.

That also gave me an idea for a new incredibility; one where the longer the player goes without taking a hit, the more damage they'll take when they finally do.
As a bonus, they'll also deal more damage.

I am not sure I perfectly conveyed what I thought, I was basically considering to scale up all enemy damage based on the damage of the player. If SR also has this, then I dont know about it.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 07, 2018, 05:37:58 PM
I am not sure I perfectly conveyed what I thought, I was basically considering to scale up all enemy damage based on the damage of the player. If SR also has this, then I dont know about it.
A mech with a threat level is a very cool idea I think. Make the threat level scale based on the player's exp level instead, that way it will work with all sorts of builds.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 07, 2018, 06:19:57 PM
Interesting. Basically have a mech that motivates you to not gain XP, beyond a minimum you need to kill your target. That's very AIW.

If the math worked I'd say something like "All enemies start with -90% damage, but each level you gain gives all enemies +20% damage" or something like that.

But damage numbers are very coarse so it doesn't seem like that would work.

Something like "Enemy spawn rate -90%, but each level you gain increases enemy spawn rate by +20%" would be even more appropriate, but I don't think SR's room designs work with the idea of increasing or decreasing enemy spawns on that basis.

Something like "All enemies and enemy shots slowed by 90%, but each level you gain increases speed of enemies and enemy shots by 20%" would work mechanically and probably work balance-wise, but it doesn't make a lot of thematic sense and kind of horns in on the Redshift's deal.

Something like "You start with +100 health, but each level you gain decreases your health by 20" would also work mechanically and maybe balance-wise, and would kind of accomplish the same idea as the -90%-enemy-damage rule, but it doesn't make sense thematically.


Taking a step back, how about something like this:
- Every level you gain increases enemy spawn rate by 20%.
+ All shop items (including sac items?) are free.

So you can gain a lot of power by reaching the shops (like you can in AIW from Advanced Research Stations, Advanced Factories, Design Backups, Turret Controllers, etc) but reaching them involves clearing rooms, which involves killing enemies, which involves gaining XP.

The spawn rate increase would just mean randomly picking X% of the spawn points and having them spawn a second/third/whatever monster. I think that mechanic already exists. But maybe it's just too much of a pain?

If so, the spawn rate could be replaced with an enemy speedup.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 07, 2018, 06:57:18 PM
Interesting. Basically have a mech that motivates you to not gain XP, beyond a minimum you need to kill your target. That's very AIW.

If the math worked I'd say something like "All enemies start with -90% damage, but each level you gain gives all enemies +20% damage" or something like that.

But damage numbers are very coarse so it doesn't seem like that would work.

Something like "Enemy spawn rate -90%, but each level you gain increases enemy spawn rate by +20%" would be even more appropriate, but I don't think SR's room designs work with the idea of increasing or decreasing enemy spawns on that basis.

Something like "All enemies and enemy shots slowed by 90%, but each level you gain increases speed of enemies and enemy shots by 20%" would work mechanically and probably work balance-wise, but it doesn't make a lot of thematic sense and kind of horns in on the Redshift's deal.

Something like "You start with +100 health, but each level you gain decreases your health by 20" would also work mechanically and maybe balance-wise, and would kind of accomplish the same idea as the -90%-enemy-damage rule, but it doesn't make sense thematically.


Taking a step back, how about something like this:
- Every level you gain increases enemy spawn rate by 20%.
+ All shop items (including sac items?) are free.

So you can gain a lot of power by reaching the shops (like you can in AIW from Advanced Research Stations, Advanced Factories, Design Backups, Turret Controllers, etc) but reaching them involves clearing rooms, which involves killing enemies, which involves gaining XP.

The spawn rate increase would just mean randomly picking X% of the spawn points and having them spawn a second/third/whatever monster. I think that mechanic already exists. But maybe it's just too much of a pain?

If so, the spawn rate could be replaced with an enemy speedup.

Can something be done about already cleared rooms?

If so, here is another idea that would incorporate what you are suggesting:

1) With AI War Mech, teleporters will not be usable.
2) With each new level previously cleared rooms have +%10 chance to respawn all enemies (with some cap). Since every new level needs more XP, repeated clearings will not cause things go overboard I think.

I think this reflects AI producing more ships for higher threat levels in AI wars. And since it is always a chance, it will feel more dangerous than 1 room out of 5 and such.

This does not need any kind of free shop items, and actually this may be further balanced by an increase in damage or speed of the enemies as you suggested.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 07, 2018, 07:07:23 PM
That sounds a lot like "the superpower of this mech is that you get to backtrack a ton." Is there interest in that?


Going a bit further afield, maybe: using this mech replaces random rooms with "wave rooms" that are fairly open (with some strategic cover) and on one end it just spawns a ton of enemies that come and try to murder you. Lots of XP. But the higher your level, the more murderous these rooms get.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 07, 2018, 07:15:29 PM
That sounds a lot like "the superpower of this mech is that you get to backtrack a ton." Is there interest in that?


Going a bit further afield, maybe: using this mech replaces random rooms with "wave rooms" that are fairly open (with some strategic cover) and on one end it just spawns a ton of enemies that come and try to murder you. Lots of XP. But the higher your level, the more murderous these rooms get.

Good point. I am just trying to find a parallel in a lore consistent way without thinking how much fun it will be.

The wave rooms sounded too far fetching for me, but also works. But it sounds like too much effort for just a single mech.

What about increasing the chances for spawn of higher floor enemies? Although for later floors this will not work.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 07, 2018, 07:43:00 PM
The wave rooms sounded too far fetching for me, but also works. But it sounds like too much effort for just a single mech.
The dev effort wouldn't be very large, and the room design would be fairly simple (open arena). It's not more effort than the Redshift took, for sure.

The main question is whether it would be fun; I dunno on that.


Quote
What about increasing the chances for spawn of higher floor enemies? Although for later floors this will not work.
Yea, it would become less meaningful as the run went on.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Whistler on February 07, 2018, 09:06:22 PM
The idea of the threat level is quite interesting. To make it less granular, you could do something like +x% enemy speed at player level 2, +y% HP at level 3 and so on with different effects at each level, with major enemy boosts like +1 enemy damage at levels 6 and 11. 

My main concerns would be that the game could become too grindy if enemy HP boosts get too strong, and giving the player upgrades that mitigate these effects without being their direct opposites.

Also, the warhog launcher is just like a MK I nuke. :)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: ptarth on February 07, 2018, 09:54:01 PM
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly throw in full map knowledge as an early perk.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 07, 2018, 11:28:34 PM
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly through in full map knowledge as an early perk.

Oooh, there we go. That might work well.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 08, 2018, 04:08:54 AM
Is there a way to make Minibosses compulsory? While ptarth's idea will work well, it may decrease the run time a lot, which is not AIWar like :D
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 08, 2018, 12:24:25 PM
Quote
Maybe we can have some weapons from AI War races too? Spire photon lance, Neinzul drone launcher, Zenith Devourer module? These are just some names/ideas I have but I honestly have no idea what these kind of things would actually do.

I think for the actual mech weapons then we would probably go for something like that, yeah. Just a cool weapon from AI War that seems like it would fit. For example, Spire Photon Lance sounds super cool! Although I haven't actually played much AI War so I'm not sure what that weapon would look like. Any more thoughts on potential weapons would be helpful if anybody has any ideas. 

Quote
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly through in full map knowledge as an early perk.

Sounds like it could work. This would mean that the player is pretty much trying to take the shortest route possible through to the finish? So, most runs would consist of making a beeline straight to the boss? Is that a good thing...I'm not sure! I suppose the interesting aspect is that because the player will have a full view of the map, they will have to make choices on whether they beeline straight to the boss or make any detours to shops, health upgrade rooms etc. That sounds like it could be interesting.

Quote
Is there a way to make Minibosses compulsory? While ptarth's idea will work well, it may decrease the run time a lot, which is not AIWar like

There's currently not, but Keith could code something in for that, I imagine. Yeah, the issue with the idea might be that most runs will just consist of making a beeline straight to the boss.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. If this mech is going to work then it needs to be designed by those with AI War knowledge , so I can't really take too much of a part in the discussions at the moment. We definitely seem to be on the right track, though! Thanks! :D 

Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 08, 2018, 02:25:15 PM
Going off of Keith's original thought:
 
Start with: -X% to Enemy Health, -Y% to Enemy Speed, -Z% to Enemy Damage
Then: For EVERY ROOM entered the first time + Enemy Health, Speed, and Damage.
Possibly throw in full map knowledge as an early perk.
Something even more AIW-like, though with a major drawback:

1) You can leave normal (non-boss/miniboss/condemend) rooms without clearing them.
2) Any XP gain is deferred until the room is cleared (if you never clear it, you never get XP for killing that room's monsters).
3) The "every room" penalty in ptarth's idea instead is applied when you clear a room.
4) Give really good perks. Like "MkIV Scout" (reveal all floors) at an early level; multiple marks of "Gravity Turrets" (reduce enemy speed); "Max Armor" (reduce all enemy damage by 80%). MkI Nuke (gives you a consumable that, well, nukes the room, but also adds to the "AIP" penalty like you cleared a room). If you can implement a good photon lance weapon (huge reload time, fixed angle once fired, but is almost unstoppable) that would be a good one for a later level perk.

To summarize: Gaining xp is both very helpful and very dangerous, and you can guerrilla your way through the floors.

The main drawback is that allowing leave-before-clear permits all kinds of cheese. Ducking out mid-fight to regenerate shields, etc.

But, I respectfully submit, that cheesiness would be the most AIW-like thing about it ;)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 08, 2018, 06:21:45 PM
The main drawback is that allowing leave-before-clear permits all kinds of cheese. Ducking out mid-fight to regenerate shields, etc.

Option 1: Shields only recharge upon entering a new room. (or leaving a cleared room)
Option 2: Enforce permanent no shields
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 08, 2018, 07:33:34 PM
(or leaving a cleared room)
Yea, that would handle that.

So we'd have to see how cheesy other uses of the door would be.

For one, I don't think the shot patterns would persist if you left and came back, because only the current room is fully "in memory". Clearing a big storm that way could potentially be fairly cheesy.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 08, 2018, 11:20:14 PM
Hmm. Yeah, that would be a problem.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 09, 2018, 04:36:38 AM
And actually, I think all the enemies would be regenerated as if it were a new room; dead ones not staying dead or in their existing positions, etc.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 11, 2018, 12:29:57 PM
And actually, I think all the enemies would be regenerated as if it were a new room; dead ones not staying dead or in their existing positions, etc.

There's already a way to duck out of a fight right now. If a secret room is adjacent to a room without any special bombables, the door is automatically (and always) open.

Since secret rooms ALWAYS have a warp pad in them, you can warp somewhere else and recharge your shields and warp back.

Here's what resets:
Enemy health
Enemy positions
Bullets

Anything that was killed stays killed.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Endless Rain on February 14, 2018, 07:12:35 PM
I've figured out an idea that makes this concept much more interesting.

The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.

This causes you to want to avoid XP because leveling makes them stronger, but you have some control over how they become stronger. For example, you could choose between increasing enemy health, damage, or spawn rate when you level up, but you have to pick at least one. It's also similar to AI War's philosophy of "pick the ways you want to get killed".

I quite like Keith's suggestion of the AI Mech getting free shop items. Combined with leveling up buffing your enemies, it sounds like a fun and balanced playstyle, and very thematically similar to AI war.

Now I'm wondering about mechs based off other games by Arcen. A Skyward Collapse mech that makes enemies fight each other? An A Valley Without Wind 2 mech that is constantly being chased by a slow but invincible boss robot? A Bionic Dues mech that can switch out between four different weapon sets? There are quite a lot of possibilities. (I have no clue what a Tidalis mech would do though.)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 15, 2018, 04:25:59 AM
The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.
Now that could work!

"How do you want to die today?"

Quote
A Skyward Collapse mech that makes enemies fight each other?
Radically infeasible ;)

Quote
An A Valley Without Wind 2 mech that is constantly being chased by a slow but invincible boss robot?
It could cause a particular entity to spawn at your starting location X seconds after you start. The "chased", "slow", and "invincible" parts are fine. Though I imagine it would make some boss fights impossible due to the precision dodging needed. It's kind of like adding an invincible goomba to a high-difficulty touhou boss fight: quickly goes from "Can be done without getting hit" to "this is flatly impossible", despite the low power of the thing added.

Quote
A Bionic Dues mech that can switch out between four different weapon sets?
Possible, though it'd be a fair bit of interface work to communicate your options in a full-blown way. I suppose it could compromise on 3-4 lines of text on the escape menu telling you the names of the other weapons, and adding a hotkey for switching. But "adding a hotkey" is a bigger deal than in other games because of the need to support controllers.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Misery on February 15, 2018, 12:58:47 PM
It could cause a particular entity to spawn at your starting location X seconds after you start. The "chased", "slow", and "invincible" parts are fine. Though I imagine it would make some boss fights impossible due to the precision dodging needed. It's kind of like adding an invincible goomba to a high-difficulty touhou boss fight: quickly goes from "Can be done without getting hit" to "this is flatly impossible", despite the low power of the thing added.

This one's viable, actually.  It's even been done before.  Look up "Lord of the Jammed" in Enter the Gungeon.

I had actually had something like this I wanted to include in the game from the very start.  It was going to be an incredibility (so as to keep it optional).  I called it "Evil Otto".  Anyone that knows that name gets a million internet cookies.  The idea was similar to Lord of the Jammed:  Totally invincible, totally unstoppable, goes right through walls, and constantly adds it's own bullets to the mix... the only advantage you have over it is that it's slow.  The difference between Lord of the Jammed and my idea is that I was going to let mine SHOOT through the walls, too, not just walk through them.  The only reason it wasn't included (along with a number of other incredibilities that were on the list Chris had), if I recall, is that some coding issue would have taken too much time to deal with, at a time when we were getting too close to release.   

It's not the easiest thing to design/balance, but it's doable.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 15, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
Quote
The AI Mech's level-up perks buff your enemies, not you.

That sounds great to me and is also a really unique mech style which would change the game up a lot.

This mech might actually be doable then, I think. The only potential issue might be the room respawning behaviour, although that might actually be workable as is.

The idea of a Spire Photon Lance sounds fine for a secondary weapon. Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?

Quote
This one's viable, actually.  It's even been done before.  Look up "Lord of the Jammed" in Enter the Gungeon.

I had actually had something like this I wanted to include in the game from the very start.  It was going to be an incredibility (so as to keep it optional).  I called it "Evil Otto".  Anyone that knows that name gets a million internet cookies.  The idea was similar to Lord of the Jammed:  Totally invincible, totally unstoppable, goes right through walls, and constantly adds it's own bullets to the mix... the only advantage you have over it is that it's slow.  The difference between Lord of the Jammed and my idea is that I was going to let mine SHOOT through the walls, too, not just walk through them.  The only reason it wasn't included (along with a number of other incredibilities that were on the list Chris had), if I recall, is that some coding issue would have taken too much time to deal with, at a time when we were getting too close to release.   

It's not the easiest thing to design/balance, but it's doable.

Yeah, I know that reference, but only because think I remember you mentioning it way back -- no cookies for me, then! :) Something like that could work, yeah.

Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 15, 2018, 05:22:45 PM
Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?
Missile Launcher could be Warhead Launcher instead. If it is possible, enemies not killed by it will be enraged (speed up? attack up?), similiar how Warheads in AI War increase AI Progress. Other alternative, make it similiar to the Paladin missile launcher but visual different and call it Neinzul Drone launcher. It would fit perfectly if the missiles simply would look like insects.
Main weapon... I have actually no clue. We could simply go with the standard minigun even if it sounds bland.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 15, 2018, 05:31:56 PM
Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?
Missile Launcher could be Warhead Launcher instead. If it is possible, enemies not killed by it will be enraged (speed up? attack up?), similiar how Warheads in AI War increase AI Progress. [...]
Let's be evil and make it so using the launcher gives you XP. >D
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 15, 2018, 05:35:03 PM
Anybody got any thoughts on a main weapon? Or perhaps even a missile launcher?
Missile Launcher could be Warhead Launcher instead. If it is possible, enemies not killed by it will be enraged (speed up? attack up?), similiar how Warheads in AI War increase AI Progress. [...]
Let's be evil and make it so using the launcher gives you XP. >D
That sounds actually perfect.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 15, 2018, 07:11:14 PM
And you have infinite missiles :)

Edit: though that would make the very-last-boss fight somewhat anticlimactic.

So perhaps instead of literally infinite it just restores your missiles to full each time you enter a room?
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 15, 2018, 08:00:54 PM
Just throwing this idea out there. We could actually have a ship rather than a mech. Or some kind of hovery...thing!
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 15, 2018, 08:43:00 PM
So perhaps instead of literally infinite it just restores your missiles to full each time you enter a room?

That would work well. Or just +lots (e.g. +5 or +10) without it being a complete refill.

The "enemies not killed are buffed" would be easy: there's already systems built for that, just that most such buffs are detrimental (e.g. slowed).
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 21, 2018, 09:42:01 PM
What would we name an AI War mech? Any ideas?
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 21, 2018, 10:57:27 PM
Ancient Tech Mech. Somethign along the line because AI War plays far back in the past or better said, Starward Rogue is so far in the future that a Mech from that time would be so old.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 22, 2018, 08:25:31 AM
I think just naming it "AI Mech" would make sense, if this is aimed for a promotional content for the release of AI War 2.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 22, 2018, 09:04:28 AM
Ancient Tech Mech. Somethign along the line because AI War plays far back in the past or better said, Starward Rogue is so far in the future that a Mech from that time would be so old.
That's a good point. In that case, how about Relic Mech?
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 22, 2018, 10:06:35 AM
Quote
I think just naming it "AI Mech" would make sense, if this is aimed for a promotional content for the release of AI War 2.

Perhaps, yeah. It probably doesn't matter too much what the name is, though, as long as it works for the mech. It could be AI Mech, Relic Mech, I'm not sure...whatever works! :)

Okay, so here's a quick design overview based on the ideas so far (and also a slightly rushed post).

The main ability(?) of the mech is that all enemies start incredibly weak but instead of yourself leveling up, enemies level up instead. You start with full map knowledge. You also get free shop items? If so, what is the purpose of credits? Or perhaps we try to stop credits from spawning? Launcher possibly gives you XP?

An important part of this design is going to be the enemy level up perks. We probably need at least 5 strong perks. Here are some ideas:

Enemy HP
Enemy Damage -- this is actually tricky, since the game only has enemy damage numbers varying from 1 to 5, having a percentage increase doesn't as much sense. So instead perhaps there would be perks to give enemy shots +1 damage.
Enemy Movement AND/OR Fire Rate AND/OR Shot Speed -- what would be the best way to separate these perks out?
Enemy Spawn Rate
...others?

I'm not so sure on the being able to move freely through rooms idea -- it's probably worth trying but it seems like it might be too exploitable.

Mech name: Relic Mech, AI Mech, Ancient Tech Mech...?
Main Weapon: Unknown.
Secondary: Spire Photon Lance
Missile: Drone Launcher...?

It seems like we're making good progress. Cheers!
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 22, 2018, 01:59:51 PM
That's a good point. In that case, how about Relic Mech?

Call it the Remnant Mech. (http://arcengames.com/ai-war/tzr/)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 23, 2018, 04:09:20 PM
Murdoch Mech
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 25, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
Either Murdoch or Remnant seems like good names to me.

I've been running the implementation through my brain and one issue stands out -- currently, leveling up is optional. If wanted, the player can go through the entire game without leveling up. So, we'd need a way to be able to make leveling up immediately mandatory. Otherwise players would be able to just not press E to level up. Another thing that might be nice is to replace the XP bar for an AIP bar (I think that's what the mechanic is from AI War that we're imitating?)

One other issue, if all items are free then what are credits going to be used for? I guess just removing all credits from runs is the way to go for this, although there might be some engine issues with that. I don't think it's currently possible to stop credits spawning that are placed via the map editor.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 25, 2018, 11:15:23 AM
One other issue, if all items are free then what are credits going to be used for? I guess just removing all credits from runs is the way to go for this, although there might be some engine issues with that. I don't think it's currently possible to stop credits spawning that are placed via the map editor.
Hm, good point. I was gonna say XP machines, but that's a bad thing for this one. Well, if the mech has a minion spawning secondary, it could run on money just like the Contrishooter. Kind of a AIWar themed Ram Launcher fueled with money.

But finding a way to force levelups is probably the biggest issue at this time. Sounds like obligatory engine work to me.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: tombik on February 25, 2018, 12:34:50 PM
Either Murdoch or Remnant seems like good names to me.

I've been running the implementation through my brain and one issue stands out -- currently, leveling up is optional. If wanted, the player can go through the entire game without leveling up. So, we'd need a way to be able to make leveling up immediately mandatory. Otherwise players would be able to just not press E to level up. Another thing that might be nice is to replace the XP bar for an AIP bar (I think that's what the mechanic is from AI War that we're imitating?)

One other issue, if all items are free then what are credits going to be used for? I guess just removing all credits from runs is the way to go for this, although there might be some engine issues with that. I don't think it's currently possible to stop credits spawning that are placed via the map editor.

I am not a fan of free items but, if that is what you would be implementing what about credits= negative XP in a minor way?
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 25, 2018, 12:51:18 PM
I am not a fan of free items but, if that is what you would be implementing what about credits= negative XP in a minor way?
I wonder if the XP machines could be tweaked to give negative XP with this mech.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 25, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
So, we'd need a way to be able to make leveling up immediately mandatory.
The simplest approach would be for it to automatically apply the level-up as soon as it became available, randomly picking a "perk".

Alternatively it can do the auto-apply if the player changes rooms while the "press E" text is showing.

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One other issue, if all items are free then what are credits going to be used for? I guess just removing all credits from runs is the way to go for this, although there might be some engine issues with that. I don't think it's currently possible to stop credits spawning that are placed via the map editor.
Is there not some generic effect for "replace all entities of type X with type Y?"

That said, it'd be nice to use the credit mechanic in some way. How about giving that mech the passive ability: "if you try to use energy but don't have enough, and you do have credits, the game automatically takes away 1 credit and gives you X energy (repeating if necessary)"? I don't know what X would be, but we could make it xml-tuneable.

Alternatively, having a minion-spawning thing that burns credits (to produce mercenaries, or neinzul railpods, or whatever) would make sense. But if it's a swappable system it's very easy to get back to a place where credits are there and useless.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 25, 2018, 02:46:26 PM
Both "credits to energy" and "mercenaries, or neinzul railpods, or whatever" both sound really cool.
Not neccessarily at the same time, but like, as generic mechanics.

As for how much energy for a credit, 10 credits gets you 20 max energy, so I'd want to get AT LEAST 20 energy-right-now for a credit.

(Hmm, the Credit-Energy-Converter consumable is 5 -> 10, as many times as possible...I regularly have 100+ energy, sometimes as much as 200...I have never and probably would never use this consumable: 50 credits for a refill on energy is expensive and costs 7. The EnergyDrink consumable fills you to full--whatever that is--and costs 15 credits)
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Logorouge on February 25, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
(Hmm, the Credit-Energy-Converter consumable is 5 -> 10, as many times as possible...I regularly have 100+ energy, sometimes as much as 200...I have never and probably would never use this consumable: 50 credits for a refill on energy is expensive and costs 7. The EnergyDrink consumable fills you to full--whatever that is--and costs 15 credits)
Yeah, that consumable is just bad. I'm trying to rethink it to make it worth it. I'm leaning toward making it regen energy over time so it's different from the other instant full potions.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 25, 2018, 06:45:36 PM
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I am not a fan of free items but, if that is what you would be implementing what about credits= negative XP in a minor way?

It's possible. Getting credits could reduce the XP/AIP bar. Perhaps one of the other approaches might work better, though.  Having some kind of way to spend the XP on mercenaries or whatever.

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The simplest approach would be for it to automatically apply the level-up as soon as it became available, randomly picking a "perk".

Alternatively it can do the auto-apply if the player changes rooms while the "press E" text is showing.

Yeah, the first option sounds the simplest. If we go with that is there then a point to having multiple different perks... perhaps it would be better to just have a single perk that applies a generic buff in that case.

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Is there not some generic effect for "replace all entities of type X with type Y?"

There is, but I don't think it swaps out any credits directly placed via the room editor.

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That said, it'd be nice to use the credit mechanic in some way. How about giving that mech the passive ability: "if you try to use energy but don't have enough, and you do have credits, the game automatically takes away 1 credit and gives you X energy (repeating if necessary)"? I don't know what X would be, but we could make it xml-tuneable.

Alternatively, having a minion-spawning thing that burns credits (to produce mercenaries, or neinzul railpods, or whatever) would make sense. But if it's a swappable system it's very easy to get back to a place where credits are there and useless.

Something like that could work, yeah. Perhaps if you're low on any resource, credits are then automatically converted to that resource. So, you never run out of resources if you have enough credits. The minion spawning thing would perhaps be a bit more AI War-like, though.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 25, 2018, 09:04:13 PM
Yeah, the first option sounds the simplest. If we go with that is there then a point to having multiple different perks...
It randomizes what the AI "gets".

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Is there not some generic effect for "replace all entities of type X with type Y?"

There is, but I don't think it swaps out any credits directly placed via the room editor.
Is there any reason it shouldn't do that? I don't know if it's particularly hard to make it do so.

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Perhaps if you're low on any resource, credits are then automatically converted to that resource.
True, having it auto-buy missiles or even keycards would be a possibility, though I wonder about balance.

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The minion spawning thing would perhaps be a bit more AI War-like, though.
To an extent. Perhaps it could do the auto-convert thing (just energy, maybe missiles too, not keycards), and if you ever hit max credits it auto "buys" a mercenary familiar? That would closely mimic the actual usage of mercs in AIWC: generally not built until you're near metal-cap.

Though I dunno how many merc familiars you could pile up before things got ridiculous.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Draco18s on February 26, 2018, 12:34:35 AM
It is really hard to hit the money cap in SR. Takes like 4 floors.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: keith.lamothe on February 26, 2018, 11:56:07 AM
It is really hard to hit the money cap in SR. Takes like 4 floors.
Ah, ok. Maybe nevermind the merc thing, then. Alternatively, lower the credit cap for this mech, though that seems strange.
Title: Re: AI War themed mech...?
Post by: Pepisolo on February 27, 2018, 10:32:23 AM
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It randomizes what the AI "gets".

We could do yeah. The only potential issue I can see is perhaps with damage boosts. For a damage boost to have any meaningful effect it would probably need to be at least 50% or just a flat number. Anything less than that and the perk would have no discernible effect on its own for most enemies (for a single level at least). Let's say we do a flat number of 1 extra damage, if a player were to randomly have enemies receiving a +1 damage boost then the damage numbers could potentially get a bit silly. Perhaps needing for enemies to receive multiple damage boost perks for the damage to actually raise is acceptable, though, I'm not sure. The enemy damage numbers are the only thing that are really concerning me, other stuff like health, fire rate... hmmm, actually fire rate is kind of damage output, so maybe we should just cut having any actual shot damage boosts. That would simplify things a bit.

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Is there any reason it shouldn't do that? I don't know if it's particularly hard to make it do so.

I don't think so. If we could stop certain things from seeding via the editor that should be fine.

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True, having it auto-buy missiles or even keycards would be a possibility, though I wonder about balance.

We can probably work out the balance issues as long as we have control over how many credits are spent per resource.

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To an extent. Perhaps it could do the auto-convert thing (just energy, maybe missiles too, not keycards), and if you ever hit max credits it auto "buys" a mercenary familiar? That would closely mimic the actual usage of mercs in AIWC: generally not built until you're near metal-cap.

Though I dunno how many merc familiars you could pile up before things got ridiculous.

I think perhaps that the auto-convert credits idea will probably work without any extra stuff like creating mercenaries. When 0 on a resource X credits are spent to replenish that resource. I guess the only issue there might be what is the priority order if you are on 0 for multiple resources -- make it random? Aside from that seems like a good idea.