Author Topic: 1.502 First Impressions  (Read 2409 times)

Offline Monkooky

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1.502 First Impressions
« on: November 14, 2016, 08:38:17 AM »
Summary: yesssss new stufffffff

I love the new enemies. I love the perk overhaul. I love the new difficulty curve. I love that attrition is a thing.

I unlove how long a run takes- there is too much incentive to fully clear floors, and doing so is a time consuming process. Not sure how this could be fixed, though I have some bad ideas.
I unlove how many modules got dropped. I've got a blade module already, I don't need to see this rubbish!
I ++unlove how late game minibosses seem to drop basic pickups rather than permanent loot. I killed this guy for a reason, and that reason wasn't getting two missiles. (No loot from minibosses would be fine, as long as it was consistant)

That's it for general feedback.

Specific stuff! Quibbles ahoy
The swarm of tiny dudes is cool- extremely unthreatening and easy to wipe out, but cool.
EDIT: just ran into a billion of them in one room. Still not a threat, barely even a challenge. They definitely give too much XP for what they are.
The anklebiters are very cool but mildly unimpactful. Might be worth bumping their attack speed up slightly?
I really dig the level 2 perks, though I feel like savings interest might outclass the others? Pure speculation for now of course.
+Shield should probably not be a perk. It was super good before, and it's super better now that attrition is higher.
+Shield should definitely not be a perk available to flame tank, because there it's actually useless.
The new damage tooltips are confusing and inconsistant. Brute listed as a x10% damage boost- it's not clear that x10% is an additive multiplier. Every Shot Counts is listed as a x20% damage boost- it's not clear that x20% is a straight multiplier.
With all the "Location of X" perks, you may wish to remove Spire Knowledge as a purchasable, or at least make it's tooltip clearer.
I'm worried that missile damage might get silly. Will report back with results.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 12:31:18 PM by Monkooky »

Offline Misery

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2016, 08:54:28 AM »
Run length is an issue, yeah.

It's partly to do with the rooms themselves.  Their structure often causes it to simply take too long to get through them.  This is something I"ve noticed, and something that Chris had mentioned as well.  Having to deal with a laser/spike maze and whatever JUST to take down the one remaining enemy in a room gets irksome fast, and also makes things take much longer.  Some rooms are also a bit too crowded while still having lots of objects.   Trap-focused rooms shouldn't have many enemies, and the same the other way around (with exceptions).  Right now, a lot of rooms tend to be both at once.  Yet there are few rooms that are quick clears.

Opening things up more and generally making the game less berserk about traps is something I intend on doing.  Not for the expansion, this would be a simple for-everyone update (it's just room files, and it'd be altered current ones, not totally new ones).  Aint too thrilled about how freaking long it'll take though.  Gotta be done however.  Those runs really are too long and too many rooms drag on way too much when they don't have to.   I really should have curated these things when people were submitting them.  Bah.

I don't think module drops have changed actually.   Where are you seeing these?


Minibosses:  Cant have them giving out full weapons EVERY time.  Bad idea.  For the time being the current system works well enough.  The reason it was implemented is because it was very often that the player would not actually have a chance to switch to a new weapon/sub-weapon during a run, and with the new setup, that's a problem.  It's also just not fun to be stuck with starting guns all the way.


The swarmer guys actually shouldn't be giving you EXP at all.   Sounds like a bug.  Ugh.  Always something....

Biter things:  I'm never sure what to do with those blasted things.  They were actually in the game at launch; I removed them after they presented too many problems due to positioning.  Now they've been placed back in, albeit very carefully, yet their role is still really wonky.  Which is moderately annoying.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 10:32:59 AM »
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I love the new enemies. I love the perk overhaul. I love the new difficulty curve. I love that attrition is a thing.

Nice, we seem to have hit the main targets then! :)

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I unlove how long a run takes- there is too much incentive to fully clear floors, and doing so is a time consuming process. Not sure how this could be fixed, though I have some bad ideas.

Yeah, the actual floor sizes have been reduced quite significantly, but that's probably been offset due to not being able to steamroller the game as easily. Maybe reduce the XP requirements, so you level up a bit more quickly? Misery's thoughts on this also sound good. A few more open, less nightmarish death trap rooms should help.

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I unlove how many modules got dropped. I've got a blade module already, I don't need to see this rubbish!

Hmmm, yeah, not sure how else we fit the modules into the pools. The only place for modules in which you're not going to get annoyed because you already a good one, is in shops. Or any rooms with a choice of three items. On the other hand, modules are generally super powerful, so you kind of want them to drop from bosses (scratches head). Anybody in favour of just having them in shops and secret item rooms?

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I ++unlove how late game minibosses seem to drop basic pickups rather than permanent loot. I killed this guy for a reason, and that reason wasn't getting two missiles. (No loot from minibosses would be fine, as long as it was consistant)

Originally minibosses would mostly only drop weapons, but Misery thought that was too much, so we added in resource drops.  I think it can be useful to know that a miniboss can drop some decent resources as it gives you some options when it comes to combating attrition. Most of the time you will probably be seeing weapon drops, though. There should be no difference between the early and late game ratio of weapons to resources drops.

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The biter dudes are very cool but mildly unimpactful. Might be worth bumping their attack speed up slightly?

Just to clarify, do you mean the Anklebiters or the Chompers? If you mean the Anklebiters then I think one of the problems could be that since their ability to shoot through walls has been removed, a lot of the time they seem to be in positions that their attacks are stopped by walls and only minimally effective.

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+Shield should probably not be a perk. It was super good before, and it's super better now that attrition is higher.

I kind of like it there as a late game anti-attrition option. If I'm really struggling with attrition then I would probably grab it, if not I'll go for something else.

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+Shield should definitely not be a perk available to flame tank, because there it's actually useless.

Yeah, that seems like a fair point.

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The new damage tooltips are confusing and inconsistant. Brute listed as a x10% damage boost- it's not clear that x10% is an additive multiplier. Every Shot Counts is listed as a x20% damage boost- it's not clear that x20% is a straight multiplier.

Yeah, getting this language correct has always been a struggle. If Brute says x10% then that's just a mistake, it should say +10%.  So generally, we're not liking the x10% for a multiplier, +10% for additive then? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

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With all the "Location of X" perks, you may wish to remove Spire Knowledge as a purchasable, or at least make it's tooltip clearer.

I'll take a look at the clarity of the description, thanks.

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I'm worried that missile damage might get silly. Will report back with results.

I've tested this a bit, and was surprised that things didn't seem to get too crazy. I believe I grabbed all the missile damage multipliers and a powerful launcher, then fought Terminus and things weren't crazily OP. Might need tweaking, though.

Thanks for the feedback! :)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 10:58:43 AM by Pepisolo »

Offline Monkooky

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2016, 12:30:25 PM »
The module drops and resources from minibosses are probably just a case of small sample size.
I did a normal run and got 4 resources and 1 cluster launcher across 5 minibosses floors 5-7.
I have since moved up to Hard and my data collection stagnated.

As for missiles- I've been trying to get Explodifier and the missile perks. Even if this turns out to be stupid powerful, it's probably sufficiently difficult to get that it isn't a problem.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 01:13:48 PM by Monkooky »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 01:51:48 AM »
Wait wait....bosses can drop resources as missiles and health? Uh...how about no? After having struggled to defeat a boss, you do not want a big, fat middlefinger in your face saying "HA HA you get nothing cool for your efforts!"

That's ragequit material right there.
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Offline ptarth

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 01:58:26 AM »
mini-bosses.

Also, just relax a bit before starting to make changes. We need a slightly larger sample of runs before we change everything.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2016, 03:07:47 AM »
Wait wait....bosses can drop resources as missiles and health? Uh...how about no? After having struggled to defeat a boss, you do not want a big, fat middlefinger in your face saying "HA HA you get nothing cool for your efforts!"

That's ragequit material right there.

To a degree they already do this, with their tendency to drop modules over and over.  Having a bit less of those in the boss pool might be a good idea.

Instead, maybe some of them could appear inside the defensive shop?  Quite a number of modules are defensive in nature, after all, and that shop could do with a better selection.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2016, 04:38:50 AM »
mini-bosses.

Also, just relax a bit before starting to make changes. We need a slightly larger sample of runs before we change everything.
Oh. Somehow it sounded like you were talking about actual bosses up there. I'll reserve judgement on the minibosses. I seem to remember those dropping barely anything at all anyway.
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Offline z99-_

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2016, 10:10:46 AM »
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+Shield should definitely not be a perk available to flame tank, because there it's actually useless.

Yeah, that seems like a fair point.

I haven't had the chance to play this build yet - maybe over the holidays - but as this is something that has been present for awhile, I plead that you do not remove this. It works so well with the item(s) that do cool stuff at the expense of a shield. It leads to the interesting choice of 'Do I take one of these perks that are moderately useful, or do I take this perk that is currently useless, but can combine with certain rare items to make a REALLY powerful perk later?' To me, those are some of the most fun choices of the game :) I always pick it up, because although I rarely end up getting the accompanying item, when I do, it feels like I hit the jackpot.

In fact, I wonder if it would be possible to add similar things? Like minibosses and locked chests could have a chance of dropping 'puzzle piece' items, that separately are useless or even slightly detrimental, but if you happen to get all of them, it gives you a powerful superperk. IF balanced properly, that could be really cool.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2016, 12:16:33 PM »
I seem to remember those dropping barely anything at all anyway.

They, in fact, drop nothing which is why the "mostly missiles, etc. with the occasional item" was proposed.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2016, 01:40:24 PM »
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+Shield should definitely not be a perk available to flame tank, because there it's actually useless.

Yeah, that seems like a fair point.

I haven't had the chance to play this build yet - maybe over the holidays - but as this is something that has been present for awhile, I plead that you do not remove this. It works so well with the item(s) that do cool stuff at the expense of a shield. It leads to the interesting choice of 'Do I take one of these perks that are moderately useful, or do I take this perk that is currently useless, but can combine with certain rare items to make a REALLY powerful perk later?' To me, those are some of the most fun choices of the game :) I always pick it up, because although I rarely end up getting the accompanying item, when I do, it feels like I hit the jackpot.

In fact, I wonder if it would be possible to add similar things? Like minibosses and locked chests could have a chance of dropping 'puzzle piece' items, that separately are useless or even slightly detrimental, but if you happen to get all of them, it gives you a powerful superperk. IF balanced properly, that could be really cool.

Yeah, I suppose we could leave it in for those situations. The puzzle piece idea does sound cool. I did want to create a weapon, for example, that is made up of two parts. Maybe a main and energy weapon pairing that if you collect both, they combine to be something really powerful. That would need some engine work, though, for that functionality to be available.

Offline Monkooky

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2016, 02:11:09 PM »
Found time for a second big run!
I died this time so, uh, this feedback might be a bit colored by salt.

Deep Blue is still bonkers. I got the blood avenger and steamrolled everything, except for the humble boss.

Can I get a new primary weapon please? I think the RNG is broken.

We can officially scratch "excessive module drop rate" from the records, the only module I saw in 4 floors was Energy Shield (I'm not willing to use it, since losing all my energy as deep blue ain't a good time)
I'm definitely in favor of migrating module drop rate towards shops to some degree.

The Humbled is way too beefy. Stage 1 and Stage 2 are absurdly threatening now that you can't take out any of the minions quickly, but stage 3 the main difficulty is that you have to dodge shots for so long that you're bound to mess up sometime. It is simultaneously boring and frustrating.

Offline Misery

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2016, 10:17:59 PM »
Yay, salt!

Sounds like The Humbled is mostly doing it's job, though I'll have a look at it's third phase HP.

Also sounds like the blue mech is still an issue, then.   Shouldn't be steamrolling, no...

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2016, 10:27:36 PM »
Yay, salt!

Sounds like The Humbled is mostly doing it's job, though I'll have a look at it's third phase HP.

Also sounds like the blue mech is still an issue, then.   Shouldn't be steamrolling, no...

Just a warning, Monkooky might be playing on Hard, so perhaps the pattern could be causing the difficulty? I tried The Humbled on normal earlier, and it seemed fine. Wasn't too difficult. For Deep Blue we should probably remove the energy multiplier? Wasn't that already removed, though? Or supposed to have been removed...not sure.

Offline Misery

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Re: 1.502 First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2016, 10:41:26 PM »
The pattern it uses isn't what makes it tanky though.

I'll be able to tell just by a quick glance at a number (I have very specific HP ranges I use for boss phases to determine how tanky or not they should be). It's possible that number may be past the correct range.

That being said, it is indeed supposed to be a tough boss, and swarm-type things inherently take longer to defeat than single targets.  Something like a double-damage consumable, or that one that hits the entire screen (normally terrible on bosses, but it works on the swarms) could work really well against this guy.

On a side note, I had a minor idea:  What if the boss locator consumable also revealed which boss is going to be in that room?  Might make it a bit more valuable, you could use it and then say "Okay, it's that guy, it gives me trouble, but X consumable/whatever works well on it, I'll go grab that from the store before I go in there".