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Games => Starward Rogue => Starward Rogue Mods & Modding => Topic started by: ptarth on February 10, 2016, 04:56:48 PM

Title: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 10, 2016, 04:56:48 PM
I'm hands down better with the Flame Tank mech than any others. Cinth is also able to easily destroy all my beautiful creations using the Flame Tank. So I've been wondering about weapon balance. I did some number crunching. Below is the table of data.

Code: [Select]
       Name Damage Reload Range Mult Speed Lifespan  dps maxdps EstRange
1    Flame    1.5   0.07   450    5   600     0.60 21.43 107.14 512
2    Basic   10.0   0.15   500    1  1200     0.42 66.67  66.67 640
3     Blue   25.0   0.30   550    1  1200     0.46 83.33  83.33 650
4     Fast    8.0   0.12   500    1  1200     0.42 66.67  66.67 640
5 LowRange   10.0   0.15   400    1  1200     0.33 66.67  66.67 512


Discussion
The Flame weapon and the Short ranged weapon do have about 100 pixels less range. The Flame weapon does about twice the damage as the others. The real story however is hidden. That is the effect of accuracy. Players have to aim their shots. If they have good aim, then their effective DPS approaches the calculated DPS above. If they have bad aim (i.e., me) then their DPS is a fraction of the above. However, not all mech weapons are equal in this regard. The Flame weapon gives you a massive AOE to work with, so even if you have bad aim the flame weapon's AOE helps you to achieve a proficient players level of accuracy. The Blue weapon suffers the opposite fate. It has the second highest DPS, but due to the low rate of fire, it requires the player to have good aim to achieve it. With my poor aim, the blue weapon is horrible, because I'm missing too many shots.

Against bosses the Flame weapon is especially effective because of the transition periods of bosses between phases. Because the boss is not launching shots, the flame weapon is able to use its dps to maximum effect.

The speed of shots do vary as well. The effective speed of the Flame weapon shots is around 62.5% of the other shots. However, the Flame weapon shots also stay around for around 50% longer, which effectively adds to your range when kiting an enemy (running away while shooting).

Who is the flame weapon strong against? Basically everything? Highly mobile enemies, enemies around corners, enemies with small hitboxes, enemies with hard to reach hitboxes, and enemies with slow attacks.

So who is the flame weapon weak against? Enemies that are at long range (due to the shorter range of the Flame weapon) and stationary (the lower accuracy of the other weapons would not matter). Enemies that have a per hit mechanic would be stronger against the Flame weapon (assuming the firing rate of these mechanics is high enough). If armor (reduction of damage per shot, currently not in game) was a mechanic that would also counter the Flame weapon.

Conclusion
The Flame weapon is the best for the low skill players and high skill players with daring close range strategies and good reaction times. Its main disadvantage is shooting at long range at stationary targets, for all other purposes it is generally better than the other weapons.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 10, 2016, 05:23:46 PM
I think this was sorta already known though...

Stuff like this though is why I've given HP boosts to the bosses and heavy enemies so many times (heck, both versions of Mirror just got another boost).  To give them a chance to set up their attacks, particularly during transitions.

Now, granted, there's other ways I could simply give them guaranteed time to do it... things that render them invincible while they initialize whatever they're going to do... but I'd really rather not do that.

I do tend to think the flame weapon though is a bit much.  It's kinda like the STG; it just causes all other weapons to become unappealing.   Ends up reminding me of Azazel's mini-brimstone attack in Isaac.  I end up finding the flame mech not all that interesting to use, same as Azazel.

I tend to stick with the weaker mechs (I use the basic one the most) because it's more interesting.  Dont like when things are easy, that's boring.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: crazyroosterman on February 10, 2016, 05:28:10 PM
so I think the question is should the weapon it self be nerfed or the mech? or perhaps the flame tanks weapon should be changed entirely and have the flamer be its energy weapon?.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 10, 2016, 06:11:41 PM
I think this was sorta already known though...
That's true. I was curious about a quantitative measure of the advantage.

Quote
Stuff like this though is why I've given HP boosts to the bosses and heavy enemies so many times (heck, both versions of Mirror just got another boost).  To give them a chance to set up their attacks, particularly during transitions.

HP boosts don't solve the problem. If anything they make it worse. The Flame weapon does the most DPS, so any effect that just increases health is going to be least effective on him. Making enemies flame resistant would specifically target the flame weapon, but I'm not sure if that's an honest way to go about making a balance change. It feels cheap and unsatisfying.

I think I'd like it if the Orange mech relied on his flame for most enemies, but more on his energy weapon for bosses. However, since energy doesn't refill that's not an option. Unless the Orange mech gets a special effect of his energy regenerating.

Quote
I do tend to think the flame weapon though is a bit much.  It's kinda like the STG; it just causes all other weapons to become unappealing
My perspective is that energy weapons are unsatisfying in general (except for the STG). In the early game you don't have enough energy to do anything with them. In the late game you have the energy, but the effects are generally too short ranged and too little damage. Additionally, I've gotten used to not using them for the first few levels, so switching behaviors is awkward as well. However, I've never been a fan of the removal of energy regeneration from the game, so I'm biased in that regard. I'm also not good at the game, which is going to flavour my perceptions as well.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 10, 2016, 06:47:35 PM
Thinking about it some more suggests that having an increased shot density at 550 pixels or less from the edge of the enemies hitbox would counter the flame weapons advantage, while not really impairing the other mechs (except the redblack).  For bosses some sort of additional close in pattern would suffice.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 10, 2016, 06:52:04 PM
Few comments, since I've been running on Hard with the Flame mech exclusively for the last few days.

1) His main weapon is far too strong / others are too weak. I feel -50 to -100 range and a slight dps nerf (reload 0.08 maybe?) would be best. Ideally, maybe give him -50 range, and all the other mechs +50 range?

2) Mirror Boss is kinda weak. Actually, really weak. Like almost stand still and kill it weak (on Hard). All I have to dodge is that one tiny aimed ")" shot, and maybe 2 of the orange shots coming in at angles. That's it. Seriously, test with Flame Mech on Hard Mirror, no damage upgrades. Really easy. Suggestions:

a) His bouncing shots need to move faster so they actually reach me before he dies. They just crawl right now.
b) Slow down the dps we can dish by giving him a bouncing wall in front that reflects shots (giant Pong paddle!). Then I couldn't put my damage on him constantly threw each stage.
c) For the same reason as b, he needs a push-back between stage 1 and 2. More thematic, but more work, what if his boss room was a mirror image left-to-right, and on stage 2 he teleported to the opposite side and started stage 2 from there?

3) Agree on energy weapons needing something. Still stand by my earlier proposal (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18513.msg198711.html#msg198711). If you hate that proposal because of shields, just make shields work as I propose on Hard+, and let them be as they currently are on Normal and below. Or have shield healing drops much more common so you can always recoup extra shields when you randomly run into traps on empty rooms.

4) Hilarious going against my own Green Aegis (not in game yet). His shield's spacing is close enough to block 80% of the flame tanks shots on Normal+. Ends up being much more interesting because I can't steamroll him immediately, but often I need to wait for his shield to timeout.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 10, 2016, 09:37:49 PM
Few comments, since I've been running on Hard with the Flame mech exclusively for the last few days.

1) His main weapon is far too strong / others are too weak. I feel -50 to -100 range and a slight dps nerf (reload 0.08 maybe?) would be best. Ideally, maybe give him -50 range, and all the other mechs +50 range?

2) Mirror Boss is kinda weak. Actually, really weak. Like almost stand still and kill it weak (on Hard). All I have to dodge is that one tiny aimed ")" shot, and maybe 2 of the orange shots coming in at angles. That's it. Seriously, test with Flame Mech on Hard Mirror, no damage upgrades. Really easy. Suggestions:

a) His bouncing shots need to move faster so they actually reach me before he dies. They just crawl right now.
b) Slow down the dps we can dish by giving him a bouncing wall in front that reflects shots (giant Pong paddle!). Then I couldn't put my damage on him constantly threw each stage.
c) For the same reason as b, he needs a push-back between stage 1 and 2. More thematic, but more work, what if his boss room was a mirror image left-to-right, and on stage 2 he teleported to the opposite side and started stage 2 from there?

3) Agree on energy weapons needing something. Still stand by my earlier proposal (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18513.msg198711.html#msg198711). If you hate that proposal because of shields, just make shields work as I propose on Hard+, and let them be as they currently are on Normal and below. Or have shield healing drops much more common so you can always recoup extra shields when you randomly run into traps on empty rooms.

4) Hilarious going against my own Green Aegis (not in game yet). His shield's spacing is close enough to block 80% of the flame tanks shots on Normal+. Ends up being much more interesting because I can't steamroll him immediately, but often I need to wait for his shield to timeout.

Mirror boss:  Had some sort of nuclear incident or... something, it's all mutated now and stronger.  Because that sounds less boring than "I buffed it".

Particularly on Hard it should be.... quite a bit tougher now.

That being said, Ptarth has given me an idea to add to boss transitions, which would stop forms being popped before their patterns fully form... so that's something I'm going to be experimenting with for bosses that have slow attacks (and Mirror's full pattern is very slow to form).  If the difficulty on a boss is low because it's being wrecked because of this (like taking out Battleswarm's second phase before it has the chance to spawn enough blue blocks to be a threat), that might change if this works the way I'm hoping.

But mostly, Mirror has a bit of extra HP right now (I'd had it quite a bit too low, actually) and it's attacks have been improved particularly on Hard.   Give it a go in the training room, if you'd like.  This applies to both the early-game version of Mirror and also the late-game version (they have different Hard mode patterns, too).  For proper testing, pretend that you cant deal damage to him for a bit to let the pattern form, so just dont fire for awhile, and THEN tell me how it is once the pattern is fully there, that'd help quite a bit.


Energy weapons:  This is just part of ongoing balancing.  Expect changes to a number of these soon.  Right now they're still in what I'm calling the "mad science experiments" phase.  The STG in particular has been nerfed quite a bit.  Dont expect that thing to be a game-winner anymore.   One thing that was odd about it.... somehow, it had INFINITE RANGE.  I... dont how how that was missed during testing.  Needless to say, it does not have this anymore.  Among other alterations.  But yeah, these are getting alot of changes overall, to knock down the very few OP ones, and just make all of them more interesting in a general sense.  I'll be asking for feedback on these things, probably with a seperate thread on the forums here, when it's time for some to be released into the full build.  So yeah, that's all being dealt with, it's just a slow process.

Flame weapon:  Yes, it really is too strong, isnt it?  Now, that being said, the Flame mech really is the Azazel of the game, and I think this is intentional.  It should still be a hard hitter, but somehow it needs SOMETHING toned down.  Do we reduce the power of the weapon itself?  Or do we give the mech itself some sort of downside to balance out that level of power?  Like how the Redshift is balanced by it's terrible HP and lack of shields.  What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 10, 2016, 10:07:27 PM
Mirror feels MUCH better. Stage 1 on Hard is solid, but very reasonable for the difficulty setting. I'm getting hit 3-4 times after about 10 runs, and with a touch more practice I should have that down to 1-2. Stage 2 is much harder, but I'm just starting to get a feel for it. I think it feels right for Hard. Also, loving the smaller hitbox from a patch or two ago. Much cleaner feel.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 10, 2016, 10:18:08 PM
Have you tried both versions of this boss?

There's Mirror, the normal early-game boss, and then there's Mirror V2 that appears only on floor 6. It has a seperate test chamber of it's own.  A bit of feedback on that guy would be good too (feedback is always really great when there's big pattern changes!)

Good to see that the main one seems better though.


And yeah, that hitbox thing makes a HUGE difference, doesnt it?  My enjoyment of the game just plain multiplied as soon as that change was made.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 10, 2016, 10:46:40 PM
Flame tank already has the lowest effective range (disadvantage on most bosses), second lowest starting HP, and lowest damage per shot.

Advantages are it's coverage and rate of fire and missile capacity.  It benefits the least from raw attack power and greatly from crit.


Normal floor enemies should be left out of this discussion.  Most rooms are overcrowded in general and fodder dies as fodder should.

Against bosses, the only time it's really an issue is during transitions and there are ways of giving bosses time to work.  Invader has a good solution.  I'm sure we can find another one or two.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 10, 2016, 11:03:14 PM
I dont really want to make too many boss alterations JUST for the flame mech.  A few very specific bosses (not all of them) might get the bit that protects during transitions, but not all of them would get anything out of that (only a few have patterns that are super slow to form).  I need to mess with it for awhile before making any decisions on that anyway.

Beyond that.... I have no ideas for that mech.  I'll leave that up to you guys actually.  I get bored with that mech, so I dont even use it.  One of the few things in the game that I just genuinely have no interest in as a result, so I'm not the best one to do anything on it.

I will say though that the range on it doesnt seem to affect anything.  It doesnt appear to give it any more trouble actually. It's still stupidly easy with it.  Is it even the range it's supposed to be?

And past that, I dont even know.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 10, 2016, 11:22:19 PM
I will say though that the range on it doesnt seem to affect anything.  It doesnt appear to give it any more trouble actually. It's still stupidly easy with it.  Is it even the range it's supposed to be?

Yes.  It's been that way since it was introduced. 

It's the only mech I use outside of testing (where I also use White Gloss).  I don't find it OP, just easier to use.  It fits the range of mechs we have from easy to use to this ain't gonna be easy (redshift).  As far as overall power available, Green Ivy gets that call with access to the most credits.

Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 10, 2016, 11:27:55 PM
Flame tank already has the lowest effective range (disadvantage on most bosses), second lowest starting HP, and lowest damage per shot.

Advantages are it's coverage and rate of fire and missile capacity.  It benefits the least from raw attack power and greatly from crit.

The Flame Tank gains the same amount of attack power as the others. 20% of 1.5 is still 20%. Per shot, sure 1.8 isn't much more than 1.5. But he still gets so many shots on target that it doesn't matter. At the DPS level his DPS advantage is still going to be magnified. As for the critical hit, it just means his DPS variance is going to be smaller than the DPS variant of the others. So he still gains a benefit and become more consistent, which is desireable.

In regards to pattern distance range advantage, the catch is where is the weak spot. In many of the bullet-hell patterns there is generally only a few places you can be safely. If all of those spots are inside the 500ish range boundary, then the flame tank has no range disadvantage. One thing I did not earlier is that the hitbox of the flame shot is very large, which sometimes gets caught on shields or blocking shots an does not make it to the target. Another disadvantage is the amount of activity the flame tank makes with his shot, seeing through and around it is sometimes hard and enemy shots can sneak through in the torrid of flames.

re: Range of flame tank weapon
The effective range is very similar to the range in the file, so I believe it is performing as expected.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 12:44:43 AM
Flame tank already has the lowest effective range (disadvantage on most bosses), second lowest starting HP, and lowest damage per shot.

Advantages are it's coverage and rate of fire and missile capacity.  It benefits the least from raw attack power and greatly from crit.

The Flame Tank gains the same amount of attack power as the others. 20% of 1.5 is still 20%. Per shot, sure 1.8 isn't much more than 1.5. But he still gets so many shots on target that it doesn't matter. At the DPS level his DPS advantage is still going to be magnified. As for the critical hit, it just means his DPS variance is going to be smaller than the DPS variant of the others. So he still gains a benefit and become more consistent, which is desireable.

In regards to pattern distance range advantage, the catch is where is the weak spot. In many of the bullet-hell patterns there is generally only a few places you can be safely. If all of those spots are inside the 500ish range boundary, then the flame tank has no range disadvantage. One thing I did not earlier is that the hitbox of the flame shot is very large, which sometimes gets caught on shields or blocking shots an does not make it to the target. Another disadvantage is the amount of activity the flame tank makes with his shot, seeing through and around it is sometimes hard and enemy shots can sneak through in the torrid of flames.

re: Range of flame tank weapon
The effective range is very similar to the range in the file, so I believe it is performing as expected.

Yes a 20% boost is a 20% boost is a 20% boost.  The absolute gains from it vary based on the base damage of the weapon. 
White Gloss will gain more per boost and be better off for it.  Flame tank needs several boosts to even see a difference.  It's very noticeable against a lot of bigger enemies.  Crit is a double damage roll.  You can also accumulate quite a bit of % chance to crit.  On the FT you can really feel crits (and roll off a screen full).  It effects how the weapon feels.

A lot of boss patterns have a very small zone at FT's max range.  Some bosses you can get close but it isn't advised for most players.  Mirror and Backfire you can play at point blank safely all match long.  FT only gets a DPS advantage if most of the streams connect.  Against bosses that's risk/ reward.  If I'm not mistaken, FT also can't use range upgrades on the Incinerator.  It's range is fixed.  Attack speed is another area, it's already a fast weapon, so it benefits less from AS upgrades (Blue gains the most from them).  Each mech should have a crossover point in power curves with the flame tank and pass it over.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 11, 2016, 02:37:28 PM
Do attack speed upgrades reduce reload by a fixed value or a percent? Because if it is a percent, no mech benefits more or less from attack speed, they all benefit identically in terms of DPS.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 11, 2016, 09:01:26 PM
Okay, something I've noticed about that flame weapon....

I thought from the start this mech was just outright too easy to use, and for a mech with what should be a short range weapon, this just didn't seem true.  So I did a comparison, and:

(http://i.imgur.com/HtZ7CPm.jpg)


Crappy editing, but you can see, there's next to no difference between the range on the "normal" gun, and the range on the flamer.  Needless to say I altered the normal gun temporarily to make it easier to see it's full range.  I didn't forget to revert that, dont worry...

But yeah, this is what I meant about the thing's range.  It's really not actually shorter.  The difference is so tiny as to just not matter.


I just figured I'd point it out, since balance on these starting weapons is being discussed.  This explains part of why this mech makes the game super-easy.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 09:10:46 PM
It doesn't benefit from range upgrades.

Also at max range you aren't maximizing the potential DPS (except on bosses).
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 11, 2016, 09:28:53 PM
I get nearly max (4 of 5 hits) even on regular enemies larger than Fleas, even at max range; they've got a generous hitbox. Not that killing non-bosses is all that difficult. And range upgrades are so rare, in all my runs I've gotten one. So in practice, those arguments don't hold up.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 11, 2016, 09:35:10 PM
It doesn't benefit from range upgrades.

Also at max range you aren't maximizing the potential DPS (except on bosses).

The maximization of damage works on large enemies too though, which are the only enemies where it's even notable.  Anything small dies fast to begin with, and "heavy" foes pretty much move very slowly as a rule (easy to hit with the entire thing).  However, the shot is also wider; the additional benefit is that it's easier to hit with.  That alone can make small things die faster because you're impacting rather than missing more.  It's quite a bit harder to hit small/fast things with other starting weapons due to the thin nature of their shots.  Take the flamer up against small foes and just watch how fast they go down, VS using something like the White Gloss.  It happens at any range.  Either they're super close and taking max damage, or they're nearer to the edge, where the effect is wide, and being much more easily hit.

That being said, even many small foes seem to have hitboxes big enough that they do in fact get impacted by the most of the flame at it's furthest difference.  Due to the flame's nature, quicker moving foes, even those with small hitboxes, can tend to plow into the entire "layer" of a flame section simply because they pound right through the entire thing. 

Range upgrades barely even exist to begin with.  They seemed to have been heavily avoided during development, which is a little odd.  The only one I can even think of is Risky Assassin.


Mostly I'm pointing these out as I'm going through the game with some test runs with the thing, despite that it bores me to death (figured I should do it anyway).  These, so far, are my findings; the ENTIRE game, not just bosses, is dramatically easier due to the speed of flattening things.

I dont know how much easier this thing is supposed to make the game; since I dont use the flame weapon due to getting tired of it in normal runs it's one of the weapons I'm not going to bother altering.   I'm just giving info since mech balance seems to be being looked at.  Again though I'm leaving this guy entirely up to you guys, so on this one I'm not going to actually interfere or anything.  I'm just giving info and feedback right now.

But yeah, that's my experience with the mech:  It's like playing the game on an entirely different and lower difficulty level.

Granted the Green Envy has that issue as well with that secondary it uses, but THAT I did change.   The weapon, not the mech.  Experiments continue however.


Anyway, that's all of that for now.  Back to hitting items with virtual hammers again, as I really must put some focus into that here.  Enough damn boss alterations for now.

On a total side note though, just in case I forget to mention it later, I fixed Labyrinth and the infamously deadly Charger.   Finally.   I keep forgetting to actually look at Mantis, you see, or I'd have fixed that Charger earlier.  I dont THINK there's any other major enemy/boss issues right now.  But let me know if you should spot any.

I get nearly max (4 of 5 hits) even on regular enemies larger than Fleas, even at max range; they've got a generous hitbox. Not that killing non-bosses is all that difficult. And range upgrades are so rare, in all my runs I've gotten one. So in practice, those arguments don't hold up.

Yep.  The only enemy that really seems to get missed much by parts of the flames, when struck head-on (the only situation where something is likely to avoid some of it, due to lack of horizontal movement causing impacts with additional flameshots) is the FaceRipper.  Even something else pretty darn small like the Pearl tends to get whomped by all or nearly all of the flame.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 11, 2016, 09:42:08 PM
If I would change the Flame Tank, i would probably tone down his main damage but instead add a bigger DoT. Since DoT does not stack, only refreshes, you have a steady damage output against bosses without melting them down. Just my thoughts though.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 09:46:57 PM
I'm part of the can't aim crowd. I can run WG for about 3 floors before I get tired of how long it takes.

Part of the problem facing the other mechs is that there are a LOT of overcrowded rooms.  Getting chased by several 1x1s right in an entry way with a few other ranged mobs is wholly unfair.  That's purely on the room designs though.


I actually have an idea that might bring down the 5 stream max to somewhere near the BI mech in power.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 09:49:26 PM


Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 10:02:44 PM

  • The hitbox size difference and lifespan of a flame thrower shot makes many of these calculations fuzzy. Most weapons aren't going to have DPS increased by enemies running into shots, but the flame tank does.
  • Damage increases for the Flame Tank may "seem" small because you hit so regularly. With the other weapons because accuracy is so important, you really notice after every hit. The other weapons are also going to have a higher variation in DPS because of this. Whereas because the flame thrower hits a billion times per second, its variation is going to be very low.

FT DPS varies based on the number of streams that hit.
A mob running into the flames will cross more streams.
Using player accuracy as a measurement isn't reasonable.  To much variance in ability there (I can be damn near perfect for about 3 floors before I say hug it and not care anymore).

Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.  Not every room will present you with 100% dps uptime, not even all the bosses do. 
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 11, 2016, 10:11:56 PM
I'm part of the can't aim crowd. I can run WG for about 3 floors before I get tired of how long it takes.


Aye, that one I can understand.   

It's one of the many reasons why I'm so focused on weapon and energy-weapon balance right now, particularly energy weapons.  Those things are supposed to help the player take things out after all, but so many of them... really arent doing so too much at the moment.   So hopefully things will get just a little easier as far as attacking goes for all mechs after some alterations.   Crazy experiments with these things are underway as we speak.  Well, okay, paused as I type this. 

I'll be totally honest here though, my aim isnt all that good either.  I dont like analog sticks and actually dont use them in games unless absolutely forced to (and even then, sometimes I'll tell the game "LOL NOPE" and force digital controls on it anyway) so I'm not very good with them.  My aim tends to be pretty wobbly. 

Here is actual hitbox boundaries in an image.

Here is actual hitbox boundaries in an image.

[/quote]

Aye, I already knew where the hitboxes were.   Typically, I dont need to see the hitbox outlines/markers in games like this to know *exactly* where they are on all bullet types; that skill tends to come along with playing WAY too many of these games.  In alot of bullet hell games, if you dont know the absolute exacts of where hitboxes on not just your ship but also all the bullets are, you will lose.  Well, when playing at higher difficulties anyway.  Something like Mushihime Ultra is impossible if you dont have total knowledge of stuff like this, and you can only learn by playing, not by having hitboxes displayed in most cases.

That being said, since THIS game isnt just about me playing it but is instead also about development and such, I check with F7 anyway.  I also tend to smash the screenshot button over and over again really fast when I'm trying to catch shots of something that happens quick, so I can examine them... just in case.  As a rule they dont tell me anything I dont already know.  Screen recorded videos played in slow-mo are good for this too, but I dont like resorting to that too often. 

Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.

I dont know what this means.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 10:20:47 PM
My point was that the difference in ranges is about 15%. Which is about 100 pixels.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 10:25:34 PM
Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.

I dont know what this means.

Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


OK.  I made an adjustment that does this:
Reward the FT for being accurate (without changing the pattern at all).
Brings the 5x multiplier for all 5 streams down to 3.9 (just a tick better than BI).  I can probably bring that to 3.7 comfortably.

It didn't absolutely melt Battleswarm at level 1.
Discuss.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 10:37:07 PM
Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 10:41:03 PM
Okay, how about a different approach.

The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 10:53:43 PM
Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
How does that reward aiming the pattern?  FT was already a risk/reward mech.  The more streams you put on target the better and you had to be closer to do that.  Misery is (was) using White Gloss as the base range for all his patterns (and we have established the FT range is shorter).




Okay, how about a different approach.

The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.

Eh?  I'm keeping it the polar opposite of the Redshift as far as comfort.  I picked BI since BI is big hits slowly and FT is small hits quickly.  If the upgrades were similar then the outputs should be similar.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 11, 2016, 10:58:46 PM

Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


Oh, I dont do it with test targets anyway.  That's boring.  I just go into the main game.   I only use the test chambers for new enemies/patterns being worked on.

I've always seen target range style tests to be useless anyway.  These weapons need to be usable in-game, not in a shooting gallery, after all.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 11:01:17 PM

Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


Oh, I dont do it with test targets anyway.  That's boring.  I just go into the main game.   I only use the test chambers for new enemies/patterns being worked on.

I've always seen target range style tests to be useless anyway.  These weapons need to be usable in-game, not in a shooting gallery, after all.
It's the numbers that were presented in the OP.  I agree that you also need to use feel, something that's intangible.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 11:07:25 PM
Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
How does that reward aiming the pattern?  FT was already a risk/reward mech.  The more streams you put on target the better and you had to be closer to do that.  Misery is (was) using White Gloss as the base range for all his patterns (and we have established the FT range is shorter).




Okay, how about a different approach.

The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.

Eh?  I'm keeping it the polar opposite of the Redshift as far as comfort.  I picked BI since BI is big hits slowly and FT is small hits quickly.  If the upgrades were similar then the outputs should be similar.

I guess my problem is that I don't know what goal you are trying to achieve here? Is it general balance?  Skill set type balance?

You say "Reward player for accuracy"? Sure, but what about inaccuracy? Right now all I can tell is you have lowered damage by 22% for accurate/close targeting. I have no idea about the rest.

re: Balance on feelings versus Numbers
I hate this argument because everyone always fights a strawman extreme version of the opposite position. You need both systems to do decent balancing. Numbers will get you in the ballpark and help identify edge cases. Feeling will ensure your system isn't unfairly representing the situation. To neglect either just gives you a headache and trouble.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 11:22:14 PM
I guess my problem is that I don't know what goal you are trying to achieve here? Is it general balance?  Skill set type balance?

You say "Reward player for accuracy"? Sure, but what about inaccuracy? Right now all I can tell is you have lowered damage by 22% for accurate/close targeting. I have no idea about the rest.

re: Balance on feelings versus Numbers
I hate this argument because everyone always fights a strawman extreme version of the opposite position. You need both systems to do decent balancing. Numbers will get you in the ballpark and help identify edge cases. Feeling will ensure your system isn't unfairly representing the situation. To neglect either just gives you a headache and trouble.

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon. 

Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 11, 2016, 11:37:39 PM

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon.

So if you hit with all 5 streams, it does 78% of base? What happens when you hit with 1-4 streams?
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 11, 2016, 11:41:30 PM

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon.

So if you hit with all 5 streams, it does 78% of base? What happens when you hit with 1-4 streams?

I think you figured it out.  5 streams have a different damage modifier on them.  Middle is strongest, outsides weakest.  Total potential is 3.9x (vs the 5x).  Dropping base damage wasn't really an option with destructible blocks.  To low and it takes to long to melt them.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 12, 2016, 12:10:49 AM
I mean theoretically it sounds fine. As a practicing member of Team Flame Tank, I oppose all nerfs to him. But for balance I it seems reasonable. Can you give me the code so I can try it out?
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 12:18:54 AM
It shouldn't change the feel of it at all.  All comforts retained.  Damage potential has just been reigned in a bit.

Configuration\BulletPattern
Code: [Select]
  <var name="FlameThrowerPart">
    <bullet angle="[ANGLE]" speed="[SPEED]" damage_mult="[DAMAGE]" shot_type="ShotSludgeFireLarger" >
      <change self_scale="0.2" time="0.0001" />
      <change self_scale="1.4" time="[TIME1]" />
      <change speed="[SPEED2]" time="[TIME2]" />
      <wait time="[TIME3]" />
      <die/>
    </bullet>
  </var>

Configuration\BulletPatternVariables
Code: [Select]
  <bullet_pattern name="FlameTankGun">
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=0 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=1 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.35 SPEED2=400 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=-4 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=.85 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.4 SPEED2=300 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=4 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=.85 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.4 SPEED2=300 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=-7 SPEED=850 DAMAGE=.6 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.5 SPEED2=200 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=7 SPEED=850 DAMAGE=.6 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.5 SPEED2=200 TIME3=0
</bullet_pattern>
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 12, 2016, 12:32:58 AM
Solid approach, I like it. I still feel it's range is a touch long, but I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 12, 2016, 01:04:09 AM
Played to level 3 (using the awesome Brawler Mod). The damage is still fine. I'm not concerned with the range per Hearteater. It already has 15% less range.

A sticky flame upgrade or a increased life flame upgrade would be fun.

How often do primary weapons spawn? If the Flame Tanks schtick is he always have the flame thrower, then some of his level upgrades can make his gun more powerful in ways other than just 10% damage.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 01:13:27 AM
I felt this way would be better than a flat damage nerf.  I'm glad it's going over well.


Solid approach, I like it. I still feel it's range is a touch long, but I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.

Can't shrink it down or it wouldn't work in higher difficulties, and would be really bad against some bosses.  There's likely to be range upgrades added in the future (slight since there are only a few right now).


Played to level 3 (using the awesome Brawler Mod). The damage is still fine. I'm not concerned with the range per Hearteater. It already has 15% less range.

A sticky flame upgrade or a increased life flame upgrade would be fun.

How often do primary weapons spawn? If the Flame Tanks schtick is he always have the flame thrower, then some of his level upgrades can make his gun more powerful in ways other than just 10% damage.

I wasn't going to nerf it into the ground ;)  Just address the overall power level.  I gave that to Misery to check over.

Upgrades- No and No.  No that they aren't cool, it would have to be a level up perk just for the Flame Tank, and then just for that one weapon.  I'm not to keen on that.

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 01:15:27 AM
I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.

I have to do my "shoot it down" thing again here.

This time just because this idea had already been brought up awhile ago (by me actually), but Chris was against it for various reasons, so it was a change that did not get made.  Particularly the fact that most of the game is balanced around the starting ranges that are already there.  Boss patterns in particular, but other things too. 

So that particular change isnt happening, since he was against it.  I think he was right about the balance thing too, really.  One way or another every enemy/boss/whatever in the game WAS made around the current starting ranges we have now.

Of course, there's always that possibility of getting some longer range from a totally different weapon that you swap for during a run.  I cant think of many that do that right now.  But there may be a few once I get to certain ones.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 01:16:35 AM

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well). 
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: ptarth on February 12, 2016, 01:24:46 AM
That reminds me. Is there a DPS projection per level or something else that was used to balance weapons and levelling? If so, can I get access to it? If not, I'll just make projections based on the basic mech and weapon, no worries.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 01:39:55 AM
That reminds me. Is there a DPS projection per level or something else that was used to balance weapons and levelling? If so, can I get access to it? If not, I'll just make projections based on the basic mech and weapon, no worries.

Not as far as I know.

If there was one, it would have been Dayton that had it since he did the initial weapon designs.   And so many things have changed at this point that something like that likely wouldnt be valid anymore anyway.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 02:04:06 AM

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well).

I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 02:09:45 AM
I ran 4 floors (died on 5) with the FT adjustment.  Feels ok.  Upgrades actually felt like upgrades, which was cool and crit didn't seem overboard.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 03:09:35 AM

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well).

I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.

Hmm, it does occur to me that it could simply be made into a permanent effect, rather than a module.

That being said, even if it were left that way, it wouldnt be the first item in there that's capable of blinking out of existence if you make a mistake.

That, and... if the player manages to leave an important module behind.... that's.... kinda their own fault.  Even I'm not THAT spacey.  One lesson that games like this tend to drill into you:  be careful when picking up new items.  ALWAYS think it through first.

But yes, I might just change the damn thing.   The simple fact that nobody EVER swaps it out once they have it causes me to forget it's a module in the first place.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 03:18:38 AM

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well).

I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.

Hmm, it does occur to me that it could simply be made into a permanent effect, rather than a module.

That being said, even if it were left that way, it wouldnt be the first item in there that's capable of blinking out of existence if you make a mistake.

That, and... if the player manages to leave an important module behind.... that's.... kinda their own fault.  Even I'm not THAT spacey.  One lesson that games like this tend to drill into you:  be careful when picking up new items.  ALWAYS think it through first.

But yes, I might just change the damn thing.   The simple fact that nobody EVER swaps it out once they have it causes me to forget it's a module in the first place.

Honestly, if it's causing this much issue, let's not let it drop for now and come back to it later.  The beautiful thing about all of this is we have time to think about it.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 03:32:49 AM
On the note of sacrifice room items, I think I just found a bug of some sort here.

Trying out the Flame mech, right, with your revisions (which arent where the bug is), with it's usual 6 HP, I go into a sacrifice room, buy an item that costs 5, and.... instant death.   I have no idea why.  Has anyone else seen this sort of thing happen?   Just to make sure it wasnt that specific item doing it (It was the mapping thing I bought the first time), I started a new run, went into the next sacrifice room, bought a different 5-cost item, and... instant death.

So that happened.  Needless to say I was at full HP when buying, both times.


Anyway though, on the Flame Mech itself, it does have a much better feel to it now.  The whole thing just seems more balanced and generally less one-sided.   So I approve of all of that.

As for the damn blade.... bah, yes, I'll come up with something later.  It's not a big priority at this exact moment.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 03:38:08 AM
On the note of sacrifice room items, I think I just found a bug of some sort here.

Trying out the Flame mech, right, with your revisions (which arent where the bug is), with it's usual 6 HP, I go into a sacrifice room, buy an item that costs 5, and.... instant death.   I have no idea why.  Has anyone else seen this sort of thing happen?   Just to make sure it wasnt that specific item doing it (It was the mapping thing I bought the first time), I started a new run, went into the next sacrifice room, bought a different 5-cost item, and... instant death.

So that happened.  Needless to say I was at full HP when buying, both times.


Anyway though, on the Flame Mech itself, it does have a much better feel to it now.  The whole thing just seems more balanced and generally less one-sided.   So I approve of all of that.

As for the damn blade.... bah, yes, I'll come up with something later.  It's not a big priority at this exact moment.

Mantis and assign to me and I'll  look at it tomorrow (so I don't forget).  It's similar to some other stuff I have pulled for me to look at.

Awesome.  You can push that change into SVN if you want. (FT adjustment)  Just note it as a balance change for the FT.

Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: chemical_art on February 12, 2016, 03:50:07 AM

I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.

I will agree, anything that implies a permanent lost for HP should not be able to replaced by something that does not.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 04:06:18 AM
Okey dokey, I've mantised that for you, and I've also sent in a gigantic SVN update now.

This contains... lots of stuff.  Basically, I've hit a point where I'm pleased enough with all of the current changes I was working on, including the ones from before, so those are all sent now.  Though the STG may receive a few changes later possibly, but for now I think it's good.  The Flame mech stuff is in here as well.  Just.... lots of files. 




I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.

I will agree, anything that implies a permanent lost for HP should not be able to replaced by something that does not.

I've gone and simply disabled the thing for now.   Later it will probably become a different item class entirely (not a module).  But for the time being it's simply shut off.  Less trouble for now.  Some other items in the sacrifice room need a look before that thing anyway.


This does bring up something though:  What about the probation items that are in these rooms?  What's everyone's thoughts on those?  Those are full-cost things that, while powerful, can be gone in an instant.  Are they something that should be appearing in here?  And if not, what might go in their place?  I'd rather not make this item pool any smaller than it is.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: chemical_art on February 12, 2016, 04:17:10 AM
For the record, disabling something because "Less trouble for now." that doesn't resolve in crashes is about the worst way to deal with a problem. I would suggest the possibility of losing a sac item to a non sac item is bad, but losing the item altogether is about the only thing worst.

Addendium: To just make clear, I would rather the item remain as-is until a solution is reached, rather then losing said item altogether.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 04:40:04 AM
For the record, disabling something because "Less trouble for now." that doesn't resolve in crashes is about the worst way to deal with a problem. I would suggest the possibility of losing a sac item to a non sac item is bad, but losing the item altogether is about the only thing worst.

Addendium: To just make clear, I would rather the item remain as-is until a solution is reached, rather then losing said item altogether.


Actually I only disabled it because I thought that's what Cinth's suggeston meant... but now going back and reading it I see it just says "come back to it later".

How, exactly, I read that wrong is.... ugh.   I dont know why I even try to define these moments of confusion anymore.  It's bloody pointless.  Let's just blame the weather.  And Windows.


Better idea anyway: not only have I re-enabled it just now, but in order to take out a problematic item from that room (that room costing you HP and all), I stuffed it into the OTHER secret room for now.  The one that's a good bit harder to find.  It is however still accessible and now without a cost.  For now.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: chemical_art on February 12, 2016, 04:46:28 AM
Thanks! That sounds reasonable
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 04:56:57 AM
Actually I only disabled it because I thought that's what Cinth's suggeston meant... but now going back and reading it I see it just says "come back to it later".

How, exactly, I read that wrong is.... ugh.   I dont know why I even try to define these moments of confusion anymore.  It's bloody pointless.  Let's just blame the weather.  And Windows.


Better idea anyway: not only have I re-enabled it just now, but in order to take out a problematic item from that room (that room costing you HP and all), I stuffed it into the OTHER secret room for now.  The one that's a good bit harder to find.  It is however still accessible and now without a cost.  For now.

You didn't misread it. Turn off the item and come back to it later.  Like skipping a math problem. 

Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Misery on February 12, 2016, 05:03:43 AM
Well I'm officially lost for now.  Again.  Always with the confusion.  Clearly it's a conspiracy.

Part of that confusion though is that it's way past time I just get to bed.   For now I"m just going to leave the stupid gizmo in the secret room.  It's mostly harmless in there.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Cinth on February 12, 2016, 05:08:09 AM
Well I'm officially lost for now.  Again.  Always with the confusion.  Clearly it's a conspiracy.

Part of that confusion though is that it's way past time I just get to bed.   For now I"m just going to leave the stupid gizmo in the secret room.  It's mostly harmless in there.

That's fine.  I thought I was being pretty clear.  I try most to confuse.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 12, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Prohibition items in sac rooms are pointless. Hello Harmony, I see you every run, and I'm never buying you.

Actually, that's not entirely true. I would consider buying infinite missiles right before a boss fight because that's basically a free boss win, depending on how concerned I was about facing the boss based on what I'd collected so far.
Title: Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
Post by: Hearteater on February 12, 2016, 01:51:20 PM
Have you tried both versions of this boss?

There's Mirror, the normal early-game boss, and then there's Mirror V2 that appears only on floor 6. It has a seperate test chamber of it's own.  A bit of feedback on that guy would be good too (feedback is always really great when there's big pattern changes!)

Good to see that the main one seems better though.


And yeah, that hitbox thing makes a HUGE difference, doesnt it?  My enjoyment of the game just plain multiplied as soon as that change was made.
MirrorV2 also feels good, although I haven't had time to get to stage 2 just testing about a twenty times. My record is 28 seconds (I'd tell you the health bar%, but it disappears as soon as I die so I don't know). That's 28 seconds putting damage on him. I generally last around 15 seconds. Keep in mind this is the testing room, so no upgrades to anything. He feels subtle harder than V1 in a good way. It is similar to V1, but different enough to add to the challenge in a way that makes you feel like you can apply what your learned on V1 to V2. I'll let you know how I feel about stage 2 when I get there :) .