Author Topic: Starting Player Mech Weapons  (Read 5382 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2016, 11:01:17 PM »

Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


Oh, I dont do it with test targets anyway.  That's boring.  I just go into the main game.   I only use the test chambers for new enemies/patterns being worked on.

I've always seen target range style tests to be useless anyway.  These weapons need to be usable in-game, not in a shooting gallery, after all.
It's the numbers that were presented in the OP.  I agree that you also need to use feel, something that's intangible.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2016, 11:07:25 PM »
Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
How does that reward aiming the pattern?  FT was already a risk/reward mech.  The more streams you put on target the better and you had to be closer to do that.  Misery is (was) using White Gloss as the base range for all his patterns (and we have established the FT range is shorter).




Okay, how about a different approach.

The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.

Eh?  I'm keeping it the polar opposite of the Redshift as far as comfort.  I picked BI since BI is big hits slowly and FT is small hits quickly.  If the upgrades were similar then the outputs should be similar.

I guess my problem is that I don't know what goal you are trying to achieve here? Is it general balance?  Skill set type balance?

You say "Reward player for accuracy"? Sure, but what about inaccuracy? Right now all I can tell is you have lowered damage by 22% for accurate/close targeting. I have no idea about the rest.

re: Balance on feelings versus Numbers
I hate this argument because everyone always fights a strawman extreme version of the opposite position. You need both systems to do decent balancing. Numbers will get you in the ballpark and help identify edge cases. Feeling will ensure your system isn't unfairly representing the situation. To neglect either just gives you a headache and trouble.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2016, 11:22:14 PM »
I guess my problem is that I don't know what goal you are trying to achieve here? Is it general balance?  Skill set type balance?

You say "Reward player for accuracy"? Sure, but what about inaccuracy? Right now all I can tell is you have lowered damage by 22% for accurate/close targeting. I have no idea about the rest.

re: Balance on feelings versus Numbers
I hate this argument because everyone always fights a strawman extreme version of the opposite position. You need both systems to do decent balancing. Numbers will get you in the ballpark and help identify edge cases. Feeling will ensure your system isn't unfairly representing the situation. To neglect either just gives you a headache and trouble.

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon. 

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2016, 11:37:39 PM »

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon.

So if you hit with all 5 streams, it does 78% of base? What happens when you hit with 1-4 streams?
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2016, 11:41:30 PM »

Goal is making decreasing total damage without changing how the weapon feels.  I decreased the theoretical max of the base weapon.  I kept it's themes and shapes intact.  Accuracy has been accounted for within that framework (it's how I dropped the overall potential).

I used both, numbers and feeling, to adjust the weapon.

So if you hit with all 5 streams, it does 78% of base? What happens when you hit with 1-4 streams?

I think you figured it out.  5 streams have a different damage modifier on them.  Middle is strongest, outsides weakest.  Total potential is 3.9x (vs the 5x).  Dropping base damage wasn't really an option with destructible blocks.  To low and it takes to long to melt them.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 12:10:49 AM »
I mean theoretically it sounds fine. As a practicing member of Team Flame Tank, I oppose all nerfs to him. But for balance I it seems reasonable. Can you give me the code so I can try it out?
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 12:18:54 AM »
It shouldn't change the feel of it at all.  All comforts retained.  Damage potential has just been reigned in a bit.

Configuration\BulletPattern
Code: [Select]
  <var name="FlameThrowerPart">
    <bullet angle="[ANGLE]" speed="[SPEED]" damage_mult="[DAMAGE]" shot_type="ShotSludgeFireLarger" >
      <change self_scale="0.2" time="0.0001" />
      <change self_scale="1.4" time="[TIME1]" />
      <change speed="[SPEED2]" time="[TIME2]" />
      <wait time="[TIME3]" />
      <die/>
    </bullet>
  </var>

Configuration\BulletPatternVariables
Code: [Select]
  <bullet_pattern name="FlameTankGun">
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=0 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=1 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.35 SPEED2=400 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=-4 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=.85 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.4 SPEED2=300 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=4 SPEED=900 DAMAGE=.85 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.4 SPEED2=300 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=-7 SPEED=850 DAMAGE=.6 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.5 SPEED2=200 TIME3=0
$FlameThrowerPart ANGLE=7 SPEED=850 DAMAGE=.6 TIME1=0.25 TIME2=0.5 SPEED2=200 TIME3=0
</bullet_pattern>
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 12:32:58 AM »
Solid approach, I like it. I still feel it's range is a touch long, but I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2016, 01:04:09 AM »
Played to level 3 (using the awesome Brawler Mod). The damage is still fine. I'm not concerned with the range per Hearteater. It already has 15% less range.

A sticky flame upgrade or a increased life flame upgrade would be fun.

How often do primary weapons spawn? If the Flame Tanks schtick is he always have the flame thrower, then some of his level upgrades can make his gun more powerful in ways other than just 10% damage.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2016, 01:13:27 AM »
I felt this way would be better than a flat damage nerf.  I'm glad it's going over well.


Solid approach, I like it. I still feel it's range is a touch long, but I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.

Can't shrink it down or it wouldn't work in higher difficulties, and would be really bad against some bosses.  There's likely to be range upgrades added in the future (slight since there are only a few right now).


Played to level 3 (using the awesome Brawler Mod). The damage is still fine. I'm not concerned with the range per Hearteater. It already has 15% less range.

A sticky flame upgrade or a increased life flame upgrade would be fun.

How often do primary weapons spawn? If the Flame Tanks schtick is he always have the flame thrower, then some of his level upgrades can make his gun more powerful in ways other than just 10% damage.

I wasn't going to nerf it into the ground ;)  Just address the overall power level.  I gave that to Misery to check over.

Upgrades- No and No.  No that they aren't cool, it would have to be a level up perk just for the Flame Tank, and then just for that one weapon.  I'm not to keen on that.

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2016, 01:15:27 AM »
I'd be completely happy with just raising the other mechs' ranges as I feel they are too short.

I have to do my "shoot it down" thing again here.

This time just because this idea had already been brought up awhile ago (by me actually), but Chris was against it for various reasons, so it was a change that did not get made.  Particularly the fact that most of the game is balanced around the starting ranges that are already there.  Boss patterns in particular, but other things too. 

So that particular change isnt happening, since he was against it.  I think he was right about the balance thing too, really.  One way or another every enemy/boss/whatever in the game WAS made around the current starting ranges we have now.

Of course, there's always that possibility of getting some longer range from a totally different weapon that you swap for during a run.  I cant think of many that do that right now.  But there may be a few once I get to certain ones.

Offline Misery

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2016, 01:16:35 AM »

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well). 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:18:53 AM by Misery »

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2016, 01:24:46 AM »
That reminds me. Is there a DPS projection per level or something else that was used to balance weapons and levelling? If so, can I get access to it? If not, I'll just make projections based on the basic mech and weapon, no worries.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2016, 01:39:55 AM »
That reminds me. Is there a DPS projection per level or something else that was used to balance weapons and levelling? If so, can I get access to it? If not, I'll just make projections based on the basic mech and weapon, no worries.

Not as far as I know.

If there was one, it would have been Dayton that had it since he did the initial weapon designs.   And so many things have changed at this point that something like that likely wouldnt be valid anymore anyway.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2016, 02:04:06 AM »

Weapon spawns - No idea.  Item pools and spawn rates are adjustable, but I haven't messed with any of that to see how it works (not keen on doing it soon either).

I'll likely deal with this myself when I get to them.  I have some ideas for this aspect already, for a variety of items.   Some things will also maybe be moved from one spawn pool to another (Blade Module for instance took a dive into the Sacrifice Room pool.  There's a couple of other very specific items I might stick in there to add some extra variety to that room, that I think also fit that pool well).

I really don't like the Blade Module being in a sac room.  The stuff in the sac rooms are power ups plain and simple.  That's an attachment that can be swapped out for other stuff.  It doesn't fit the theme at all.  I don't care how powerful it is, if you hug up and grab something else and leave the floor, your screwed out of your HP.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.