Author Topic: Starting Player Mech Weapons  (Read 4768 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 09:01:26 PM »
Okay, something I've noticed about that flame weapon....

I thought from the start this mech was just outright too easy to use, and for a mech with what should be a short range weapon, this just didn't seem true.  So I did a comparison, and:




Crappy editing, but you can see, there's next to no difference between the range on the "normal" gun, and the range on the flamer.  Needless to say I altered the normal gun temporarily to make it easier to see it's full range.  I didn't forget to revert that, dont worry...

But yeah, this is what I meant about the thing's range.  It's really not actually shorter.  The difference is so tiny as to just not matter.


I just figured I'd point it out, since balance on these starting weapons is being discussed.  This explains part of why this mech makes the game super-easy.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 09:10:46 PM »
It doesn't benefit from range upgrades.

Also at max range you aren't maximizing the potential DPS (except on bosses).
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 09:28:53 PM »
I get nearly max (4 of 5 hits) even on regular enemies larger than Fleas, even at max range; they've got a generous hitbox. Not that killing non-bosses is all that difficult. And range upgrades are so rare, in all my runs I've gotten one. So in practice, those arguments don't hold up.

Offline Misery

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 09:35:10 PM »
It doesn't benefit from range upgrades.

Also at max range you aren't maximizing the potential DPS (except on bosses).

The maximization of damage works on large enemies too though, which are the only enemies where it's even notable.  Anything small dies fast to begin with, and "heavy" foes pretty much move very slowly as a rule (easy to hit with the entire thing).  However, the shot is also wider; the additional benefit is that it's easier to hit with.  That alone can make small things die faster because you're impacting rather than missing more.  It's quite a bit harder to hit small/fast things with other starting weapons due to the thin nature of their shots.  Take the flamer up against small foes and just watch how fast they go down, VS using something like the White Gloss.  It happens at any range.  Either they're super close and taking max damage, or they're nearer to the edge, where the effect is wide, and being much more easily hit.

That being said, even many small foes seem to have hitboxes big enough that they do in fact get impacted by the most of the flame at it's furthest difference.  Due to the flame's nature, quicker moving foes, even those with small hitboxes, can tend to plow into the entire "layer" of a flame section simply because they pound right through the entire thing. 

Range upgrades barely even exist to begin with.  They seemed to have been heavily avoided during development, which is a little odd.  The only one I can even think of is Risky Assassin.


Mostly I'm pointing these out as I'm going through the game with some test runs with the thing, despite that it bores me to death (figured I should do it anyway).  These, so far, are my findings; the ENTIRE game, not just bosses, is dramatically easier due to the speed of flattening things.

I dont know how much easier this thing is supposed to make the game; since I dont use the flame weapon due to getting tired of it in normal runs it's one of the weapons I'm not going to bother altering.   I'm just giving info since mech balance seems to be being looked at.  Again though I'm leaving this guy entirely up to you guys, so on this one I'm not going to actually interfere or anything.  I'm just giving info and feedback right now.

But yeah, that's my experience with the mech:  It's like playing the game on an entirely different and lower difficulty level.

Granted the Green Envy has that issue as well with that secondary it uses, but THAT I did change.   The weapon, not the mech.  Experiments continue however.


Anyway, that's all of that for now.  Back to hitting items with virtual hammers again, as I really must put some focus into that here.  Enough damn boss alterations for now.

On a total side note though, just in case I forget to mention it later, I fixed Labyrinth and the infamously deadly Charger.   Finally.   I keep forgetting to actually look at Mantis, you see, or I'd have fixed that Charger earlier.  I dont THINK there's any other major enemy/boss issues right now.  But let me know if you should spot any.

I get nearly max (4 of 5 hits) even on regular enemies larger than Fleas, even at max range; they've got a generous hitbox. Not that killing non-bosses is all that difficult. And range upgrades are so rare, in all my runs I've gotten one. So in practice, those arguments don't hold up.

Yep.  The only enemy that really seems to get missed much by parts of the flames, when struck head-on (the only situation where something is likely to avoid some of it, due to lack of horizontal movement causing impacts with additional flameshots) is the FaceRipper.  Even something else pretty darn small like the Pearl tends to get whomped by all or nearly all of the flame.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:37:07 PM by Misery »

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 09:42:08 PM »
If I would change the Flame Tank, i would probably tone down his main damage but instead add a bigger DoT. Since DoT does not stack, only refreshes, you have a steady damage output against bosses without melting them down. Just my thoughts though.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 09:46:57 PM »
I'm part of the can't aim crowd. I can run WG for about 3 floors before I get tired of how long it takes.

Part of the problem facing the other mechs is that there are a LOT of overcrowded rooms.  Getting chased by several 1x1s right in an entry way with a few other ranged mobs is wholly unfair.  That's purely on the room designs though.


I actually have an idea that might bring down the 5 stream max to somewhere near the BI mech in power.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline ptarth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 09:49:26 PM »
  • The human brain cannot be trusted.
  • Human eyes are bad too.
  • Here is actual hitbox boundaries in an image.
  • The red line roughly matches up with the hitboxes of the flame thrower.
  • The blue line roughly matches with the hitboxes of the standard minigun.
  • Note the extra range for the mini-gun due to the shot deterioration.
  • I don't believe the flame thrower was ever described as short range. I think that was a heuristic applied by the players and treated as truth.
  • The difference is range is about 100 pixels.


  • Rate of Fire modifications are proportional, so the flame thrower does benefit equally.
  • The hitbox size difference and lifespan of a flame thrower shot makes many of these calculations fuzzy. Most weapons aren't going to have DPS increased by enemies running into shots, but the flame tank does.
  • Damage increases for the Flame Tank may "seem" small because you hit so regularly. With the other weapons because accuracy is so important, you really notice after every hit. The other weapons are also going to have a higher variation in DPS because of this. Whereas because the flame thrower hits a billion times per second, its variation is going to be very low.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 10:02:44 PM »

    • The hitbox size difference and lifespan of a flame thrower shot makes many of these calculations fuzzy. Most weapons aren't going to have DPS increased by enemies running into shots, but the flame tank does.
    • Damage increases for the Flame Tank may "seem" small because you hit so regularly. With the other weapons because accuracy is so important, you really notice after every hit. The other weapons are also going to have a higher variation in DPS because of this. Whereas because the flame thrower hits a billion times per second, its variation is going to be very low.

    FT DPS varies based on the number of streams that hit.
    A mob running into the flames will cross more streams.
    Using player accuracy as a measurement isn't reasonable.  To much variance in ability there (I can be damn near perfect for about 3 floors before I say hug it and not care anymore).

    Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.  Not every room will present you with 100% dps uptime, not even all the bosses do. 
    Quote from: keith.lamothe
    Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

    Offline Misery

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 10:11:56 PM »
    I'm part of the can't aim crowd. I can run WG for about 3 floors before I get tired of how long it takes.


    Aye, that one I can understand.   

    It's one of the many reasons why I'm so focused on weapon and energy-weapon balance right now, particularly energy weapons.  Those things are supposed to help the player take things out after all, but so many of them... really arent doing so too much at the moment.   So hopefully things will get just a little easier as far as attacking goes for all mechs after some alterations.   Crazy experiments with these things are underway as we speak.  Well, okay, paused as I type this. 

    I'll be totally honest here though, my aim isnt all that good either.  I dont like analog sticks and actually dont use them in games unless absolutely forced to (and even then, sometimes I'll tell the game "LOL NOPE" and force digital controls on it anyway) so I'm not very good with them.  My aim tends to be pretty wobbly. 

    Here is actual hitbox boundaries in an image.

    Here is actual hitbox boundaries in an image.

    [/quote]

    Aye, I already knew where the hitboxes were.   Typically, I dont need to see the hitbox outlines/markers in games like this to know *exactly* where they are on all bullet types; that skill tends to come along with playing WAY too many of these games.  In alot of bullet hell games, if you dont know the absolute exacts of where hitboxes on not just your ship but also all the bullets are, you will lose.  Well, when playing at higher difficulties anyway.  Something like Mushihime Ultra is impossible if you dont have total knowledge of stuff like this, and you can only learn by playing, not by having hitboxes displayed in most cases.

    That being said, since THIS game isnt just about me playing it but is instead also about development and such, I check with F7 anyway.  I also tend to smash the screenshot button over and over again really fast when I'm trying to catch shots of something that happens quick, so I can examine them... just in case.  As a rule they dont tell me anything I dont already know.  Screen recorded videos played in slow-mo are good for this too, but I dont like resorting to that too often. 

    Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.

    I dont know what this means.

    Offline ptarth

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 10:20:47 PM »
    My point was that the difference in ranges is about 15%. Which is about 100 pixels.
    Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

    Offline Cinth

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 10:25:34 PM »
    Also target dummy dps isn't always helpful.

    I dont know what this means.

    Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


    OK.  I made an adjustment that does this:
    Reward the FT for being accurate (without changing the pattern at all).
    Brings the 5x multiplier for all 5 streams down to 3.9 (just a tick better than BI).  I can probably bring that to 3.7 comfortably.

    It didn't absolutely melt Battleswarm at level 1.
    Discuss.
    Quote from: keith.lamothe
    Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

    Offline ptarth

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 10:37:07 PM »
    Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
    Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

    Offline ptarth

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 10:41:03 PM »
    Okay, how about a different approach.

    The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
    If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
    If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.
    Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

    Offline Cinth

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 10:53:43 PM »
    Depends on how you did it I guess? Right now all I have is the idea you dropped shot damage to 1.17 or down 22%
    How does that reward aiming the pattern?  FT was already a risk/reward mech.  The more streams you put on target the better and you had to be closer to do that.  Misery is (was) using White Gloss as the base range for all his patterns (and we have established the FT range is shorter).




    Okay, how about a different approach.

    The Flame Thrower be about as effect as weapon <X> at floor <Y> with upgrades <Z>?
    If so then, establish X, Y, and Z, then get people to time how long it takes to clear it.
    If the times are about the same, its fine. If not, tweak until they are close enough.

    Eh?  I'm keeping it the polar opposite of the Redshift as far as comfort.  I picked BI since BI is big hits slowly and FT is small hits quickly.  If the upgrades were similar then the outputs should be similar.
    Quote from: keith.lamothe
    Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

    Offline Misery

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    Re: Starting Player Mech Weapons
    « Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 10:58:46 PM »

    Target dummy DPS it's basically the max theoretical DPS you can produce against a stationary target that allows you 100% up time with zero interruptions.


    Oh, I dont do it with test targets anyway.  That's boring.  I just go into the main game.   I only use the test chambers for new enemies/patterns being worked on.

    I've always seen target range style tests to be useless anyway.  These weapons need to be usable in-game, not in a shooting gallery, after all.