Author Topic: Warden feedback  (Read 1437 times)

Offline Apathetic

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Warden feedback
« on: January 17, 2016, 04:09:23 AM »
I just beat the Warden for the first time on Normal, and though that the fight was relatively well balanced.  Certainly not trivial, but also I didn't think that it was too hard.  For reference I've attached a screen shot of my final stats before fighting him.

The only time been to the Warren previously was on very easy.  So I wasn't completely blind in the fight.

Offline Misery

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 09:07:02 AM »
I just beat the Warden for the first time on Normal, and though that the fight was relatively well balanced.  Certainly not trivial, but also I didn't think that it was too hard.  For reference I've attached a screen shot of my final stats before fighting him.

The only time been to the Warren previously was on very easy.  So I wasn't completely blind in the fight.

Do you remember how much HP you had at the time?  Steam's useless display obscures that part at the top there.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 09:31:24 AM »
I just beat the Warden for the first time on Normal, and though that the fight was relatively well balanced.  Certainly not trivial, but also I didn't think that it was too hard.  For reference I've attached a screen shot of my final stats before fighting him.

The only time been to the Warren previously was on very easy.  So I wasn't completely blind in the fight.

Do you remember how much HP you had at the time?  Steam's useless display obscures that part at the top there.

Base +32 going by the modifiers on the right.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Apathetic

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 02:06:03 PM »
Going into the fight I had around 35 health if I remember correctly.  I don't know how much I had after I beat the boss.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 03:22:20 PM »
on the subject of bosses does anybody else think that the sheer volume of stuff from the crystal mother is a little over the top?(I've only fought her on hard so she might be less absurd on lower difficulties) is she meant to be a late game boss? because trying to dodge anything from her seems almost impossible to me.
c.r

Offline Misery

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 03:56:11 PM »
on the subject of bosses does anybody else think that the sheer volume of stuff from the crystal mother is a little over the top?(I've only fought her on hard so she might be less absurd on lower difficulties) is she meant to be a late game boss? because trying to dodge anything from her seems almost impossible to me.

Working as intended.  She's not as hard as she looks since the pattern is very straightforward.  It's intimidating, but mostly it just uses that to throw you off.  The trick is to make sure not to panic-dodge. Just take it slow against all of the patterns, and it's not bad.

Hard mode is definitely a bit of a jump from Normal, but I figure, if people are good enough at Normal to trash all of the bosses/enemies in it, then Hard as it is, is at the right level to move on to.  It's best to master Normal first.

I've just submitted a pile of other versions of bosses for Hard mode (and a totally new boss too because why not), and, well.... they're pretty tough in their own right.

Offline Misery

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 05:37:32 PM »
Okay strike that:  I think I was thinking of something else, not Crystal Mother.   

In the process of making a hard-mode boss video for Chris, I had a go at her, and.... ooooookay, there's a couple of changes to be made there.  She's a little harder than the Warden right now.... and the Warden's current pattern is actually going to be his hard mode pattern, it's much too tough for Normal.


I musta been getting impatient while making Crystal Mother's hard patterns, or I'd have noticed a few.... errors....

Offline Apathetic

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 02:02:41 AM »
So, I just beat the warden again, but this time it was funny...  I think I spent more time tracking down which cannon I failed to destroy in my first pass then I did actually shooting the warden due to the end game stats. 

I don't think this is really intended regardless of build to be honest, at least not for bosses.  It might be worth considering implementing a maximum damage per hit (or per second) against bosses so that they aren't completely trivialized by glass cannon builds.

I can provide the stats screen if that's useful at all.  Also, to get to floor 6 does the difficulty need to be moved up from Normal or is there something else to do?

Offline Cinth

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 03:23:46 AM »
So, I just beat the warden again, but this time it was funny...  I think I spent more time tracking down which cannon I failed to destroy in my first pass then I did actually shooting the warden due to the end game stats. 

I don't think this is really intended regardless of build to be honest, at least not for bosses.  It might be worth considering implementing a maximum damage per hit (or per second) against bosses so that they aren't completely trivialized by glass cannon builds.

I can provide the stats screen if that's useful at all.  Also, to get to floor 6 does the difficulty need to be moved up from Normal or is there something else to do?

If you're having such an easy time with glass cannons on Normal then perhaps you should move the difficulty up somewhere more suitable. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Apathetic

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 04:31:58 AM »
My intention wasn't to do it that quickly, it more just happened.  I figured I'd likely find more issues on normal and progressing than a higher difficulty and not.  But given the lack of new things I found in my last successful run I plan to change the difficulty,

Offline Cinth

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 05:00:37 AM »
Misery would probably enjoy feedback from higher difficulties.  I'm not sure how many here can actually play up there.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 07:36:32 AM »
Misery would probably enjoy feedback from higher difficulties.  I'm not sure how many here can actually play up there.

Higher difficulties arent ready to go yet.

MOST of the bosses have Hard mode patterns at this point, but not all.

Nearly all enemies do not.

Misery difficulty wont be ready for launch.  It's impossible.  But I think we can get Hard mode up.   And it does get.... tough.  I'll be interested to see what happens when players encounter some of those bosses on that difficulty.  My favorite right now is Periphery; no other enemy in the game uses curved beam attacks.  Talk about a tangled mess....

I'm going to try to get a video of all of the Hard mode bosses up today.



As for damage values, yes, the damage level of rapid-fire weapons and certain other things is definitely a balance problem.  I intend on bringing it up with Chris.  It's definitely not intended that bosses go down that fast.   

Ugh, am I going to have to change the Warden's HP values *again*?   How many times have I done that now?  10 bazillion?

Offline Cinth

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 08:34:41 AM »
Considering I've only made it to Warden twice on Normal and have yet to beat it, I don't think there is an issue.  I'm still trying to get there with full health for an honest attempt.  Still working on P3.

Glass Cannons:  If someone can make it work, then it shouldn't be an issue.  Honestly, at that point you bump up the difficulty because you aren't using up enough HP.  If you can make it through Misery as a Glass Cannon, congrats, you win an internetz. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 09:26:46 AM »
Considering I've only made it to Warden twice on Normal and have yet to beat it, I don't think there is an issue.  I'm still trying to get there with full health for an honest attempt.  Still working on P3.

Glass Cannons:  If someone can make it work, then it shouldn't be an issue.  Honestly, at that point you bump up the difficulty because you aren't using up enough HP.  If you can make it through Misery as a Glass Cannon, congrats, you win an internetz.

The problem with glass cannon builds is that right now it's actually pretty easy to get the cannon part without the glass.  I've found ways to do this by like, floor 2.

For the Warden's difficulty, that one's not actually my decision; Chris decided that the difficulty was just too high for the point in the game it's at (seriously, it's harder than Terminus, the ACTUAL final boss), so it's current set of patterns will be Hard mode.  Since this is a major boss that is fought every single time through the game, it's very important that it be at the correct level of challenge.

.....not to mention that those hard mode patterns may be about to get a little tougher.  The topic of "more turret variety" has come up for this guy for it's first pattern.  Not my idea, but.... how can I resist?

Offline Apathetic

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Re: Warden feedback
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 01:45:59 PM »
I didn't intentionally build a glass cannon, what do the crippling drones actually do to enemies?  I had 2 of them (and 2 other random drones for shot blocking fun as suggested, yes it's cheesy), and if they had stacking effects on bosses...  As for the Wardens total health, I thought that it was fine the first time I encountered it, just the second time he melted.  This dichotomy is why I thought of a maximum rate to damage bosses, so that they don't die in ~1.5 seconds / phase and you actually need to deal with them shooting at you and not being hit.

I'll be switching to hard when I get home to see what happens.