Thoughts on special weapons and items?

[Misery]

Okay, so, this again is just me setting up a thread to collect some feedback to help everyone out a bit, since I'm the one that typically has the most time for the forums here.   More and more special weapons and such are being added to the game as time goes on, but there's only been so much actual feedback on them.  So I figure, it might be good to gather some here, if we can.

Now, a couple of things to note.  Firstly:  Though I'm making the topic here, I dont create this type of game content, so I cant do anything directly, nor can I take credit for awesome things of this nature that appear in the game   All I can do is give suggestions.   The one way that my job ties into this is setting up the enemy HP values.  And it should be noted that for the most part, enemy HP values are very... arbitrary right now.  They're all pretty equalized in alot of ways. I have yet to feel that it's time to worry about setting those, though I'm probably going to start messing with that soon-ish maybe.  So keep that in mind, as these special weapons and items go.  Well, when it comes to offensive items anyway.

But yeah, the questions are, what do you like about some of the current items in the game, what dont you like?  Do you have specific ones that you really enjoy getting, or ones that you never grab? Are any OP to you?  Or underpowered even?

Oh, one other thing to note:  There are a few super-short-ranged special weapons in the game right now, those are going to be changed.  It's just too hard to get that close to enemies in this game.  They fire so much stuff at you...

But that only affects a few items.

But anyway, if you guys have some feedback for these... that'd probably be pretty useful!

[Gemzo]

Oh, one other thing to note:  There are a few super-short-ranged special weapons in the game right now, those are going to be changed.  It's just too hard to get that close to enemies in this game.  They fire so much stuff at you...

I dunno, I found the acid maw to be worth the insanely short range. It quite literally melts through anything you can close distance with. That kind of risk vs reward is fun, but it doesn't make for a fun item drop I think - Players who can't handle getting that close will just wish they got something they can feasibly use instead. That being said, I found it pretty easy to use, despite not being a bullet hell superhuman. Anyway, I'm interested to see the changes when they happen.

Edit: Oh yeah, once it's in the game the slow down button should help with making it easier to use close range weapons.

[Pepisolo]

This was meant for Mantis, but I might as well put it here as well, seeing as you've made this thread. I spent a bit of time writing some thoughts on the various weapons available. These are more general impressions and may not be that useful in terms of balance changes.


FTL Drive

Mechanically seems fine, and a nice boost to have. A graphical aura would be nice, of course.


Holy Lance

Needs to be able to blast through obstacles in a single blast. Having such a powerful looking gun dinking the obstacles is weird.


Twin Machineguns

Seems fine. Nothing too exciting, just gives a nice DPS boost.


Acidic Maw

Seems a bit weird that such a broad acid blast seems to get blocked by small enemy bullets. Seems very powerful on bosses. Could potentially be OP on them, needs further testing, though.


Boomerang Needler

Quite disappointing to look at, I was expecting this to be a lot more needly. Also maybe a spread of needles would look cooler rather than just one. Seems a bit weak.


Cryptofreeze module

Not sure if there is any fire in the game atm. Bit boring, but might prove useful.


Incinerator Probe

No image available bug on pickup?


Pressure Shotgun

Aiming seems buggy, seems to shoot in a random direction at lot of the time. Note, this seems to be a joypad only bug.


Flame Thrower

Forgot the name proper name, seems quite fun to use.


Detonating Rose

Just to test to see if it could use it to damage myself I ran into it and it one shot killed me. That's a bit harsh!


Incineration Module

Pretty cool. Favourite energy weapon so far.


Stealth Module

Seems like a cool idea. Doesn't seem to do anything useful, though. Presumably you can't take damage while stealthed, but the length of the stealth can't be much more than the normal invincibility. Doesn't seem useful.


Narco Stinger

Seems like a good concept. Just needs better visuals.


Energy Shield Module

Doesn't seem to do very much reduction when activated.

Overall I would say that the weapons in the game feel pretty lacklustre, but that may just be because they don't have unique visuals and sound effects yet.

[Misery]

Oh, one other thing to note:  There are a few super-short-ranged special weapons in the game right now, those are going to be changed.  It's just too hard to get that close to enemies in this game.  They fire so much stuff at you...

I dunno, I found the acid maw to be worth the insanely short range. It quite literally melts through anything you can close distance with. That kind of risk vs reward is fun, but it doesn't make for a fun item drop I think - Players who can't handle getting that close will just wish they got something they can feasibly use instead. That being said, I found it pretty easy to use, despite not being a bullet hell superhuman. Anyway, I'm interested to see the changes when they happen.

Edit: Oh yeah, once it's in the game the slow down button should help with making it easier to use close range weapons.

Well, one issue is that the current crop of enemies isnt quite representative of how it'll be in the end; those short range weapons can work on some things, but...  these special weapons need to be usable at all stages of the game (or what's the point of picking them up?) and I can say right now, they wont work on late-game enemies.... not if I have anything to say about it anyway, hah.  I intend on getting a bit mean when it comes to the enemy design for the final areas and getting that close to many of the things in THERE will be suicidal.   

But it's not just that:  They're also useless against bosses.  Again, preferrable if they never hit a point of being totally worthless.  The more versatile special weapons as a whole are, the better it is.  On Normal difficulty I suppose SOME bosses might technically be able to be hit from super-close range... but on higher ones this will be impossible.



There's other stuff I wanna post in this thread here but I need to step away for a bit, bah.

[Gemzo]

and I can say right now, they wont work on late-game enemies.... not if I have anything to say about it anyway, hah.

I don't think it should be impossible. It should be extremely risky- suicidal even, but like... In a lot of bullet hell games, your fire rate/DPS/whatever goes up if you're really close to the target (as a reward for the risk). I think that's a really fun concept to have in the game, but I do agree it shouldn't be making the subweapons unusable for most people. It would have to be a mechanic that just is always in effect, or an upgrade like "damage increases by up to xx% as you get closer" or even a ship hull bonus of some kind.

[Misery]

and I can say right now, they wont work on late-game enemies.... not if I have anything to say about it anyway, hah.

I don't think it should be impossible. It should be extremely risky- suicidal even, but like... In a lot of bullet hell games, your fire rate/DPS/whatever goes up if you're really close to the target (as a reward for the risk). I think that's a really fun concept to have in the game, but I do agree it shouldn't be making the subweapons unusable for most people. It would have to be a mechanic that just is always in effect, or an upgrade like "damage increases by up to xx% as you get closer" or even a ship hull bonus of some kind.

Well, to put it a bit differently.... nobody will actually USE weapons like that.

After watching 10 squillion videos of people playing bullet-hell type shmups, one thing I've noticed is that nearly all of them stay as far away from the target as they can.  Only the best of the best will get close, and even then, it's just outright not viable against many enemies, often working only if the enemy hasnt fired at all yet.   In this game, that's not going to work, because most things will start firing before you get anywhere near them.  Even jumpscare types fire long before you get THAT close. 

Now, granted, it depends on the enemy type.  But as I said, I havent gotten nasty with these yet, so the "difficult" foes havent yet appeared (they're about to though; I just updated with the first two of this sort).  The tougher ones on later floors just wont be vulnerable to super-short-range weapons, and even if they are... these weapons are just pointless if nobody uses them, which makes them a waste to have in there when something else could be there.

To give an example of another game doing this, look at Isaac, and the "Number One" item.  It gives you high fire rate, but makes your range super short.  As such, nobody ever grabs it.  The only time they end up with that item is by sheer luck, if Curse of the Blind (makes all items look like ? marks) is active and an item just happens to be that one, so they grab it without knowing this.  Other than that, never used.  One of those "why is this even in here?  They could have put something interesting in there instead" sort of things.  We'd like to avoid having this happen in this game as much as possible.

That's not to say there wont be difficult and risky items, as I'm hoping that some like that can be made.  Risk and reward and all that. But they need to be difficult and risky in a way that isnt totally absurd, or they just become pointless to have.

....also, the range on those super short range weapons was REALLY short.   Like, your ship had to pretty much be TOUCHING the enemy in order to make contact.  Even I dont get THAT close to enemies when attacking them.

[Gemzo]

Well, to put it a bit differently.... nobody will actually USE weapons like that.

After watching 10 squillion videos of people playing bullet-hell type shmups, one thing I've noticed is that nearly all of them stay as far away from the target as they can.  Only the best of the best will get close, and even then, it's just outright not viable against many enemies, often working only if the enemy hasnt fired at all yet.   In this game, that's not going to work, because most things will start firing before you get anywhere near them.  Even jumpscare types fire long before you get THAT close. 

Now, granted, it depends on the enemy type.  But as I said, I havent gotten nasty with these yet, so the "difficult" foes havent yet appeared (they're about to though; I just updated with the first two of this sort).  The tougher ones on later floors just wont be vulnerable to super-short-range weapons, and even if they are... these weapons are just pointless if nobody uses them, which makes them a waste to have in there when something else could be there.

To give an example of another game doing this, look at Isaac, and the "Number One" item.  It gives you high fire rate, but makes your range super short.  As such, nobody ever grabs it.  The only time they end up with that item is by sheer luck, if Curse of the Blind (makes all items look like ? marks) is active and an item just happens to be that one, so they grab it without knowing this.  Other than that, never used.  One of those "why is this even in here?  They could have put something interesting in there instead" sort of things.  We'd like to avoid having this happen in this game as much as possible.

That's not to say there wont be difficult and risky items, as I'm hoping that some like that can be made.  Risk and reward and all that. But they need to be difficult and risky in a way that isnt totally absurd, or they just become pointless to have.

....also, the range on those super short range weapons was REALLY short.   Like, your ship had to pretty much be TOUCHING the enemy in order to make contact.  Even I dont get THAT close to enemies when attacking them.

I'm not saying we keep the subweapons as being melee range only, but rather that there still be some mechanic that gives the player opportunities to be a badass and reward them for it due to the risk. As for your Isaac example, there is a clear difference between doing extra damage at close range, and simply having short range. I'm not saying we enforce close range combat (infact I think the range limitations are a bit excessive), but I think that simply having a damage *bonus* for being closer is worth exploring. Give people the chance to go above and beyond, if they are crazy enough, y'know?

[Misery]

Well, to put it a bit differently.... nobody will actually USE weapons like that.

After watching 10 squillion videos of people playing bullet-hell type shmups, one thing I've noticed is that nearly all of them stay as far away from the target as they can.  Only the best of the best will get close, and even then, it's just outright not viable against many enemies, often working only if the enemy hasnt fired at all yet.   In this game, that's not going to work, because most things will start firing before you get anywhere near them.  Even jumpscare types fire long before you get THAT close. 

Now, granted, it depends on the enemy type.  But as I said, I havent gotten nasty with these yet, so the "difficult" foes havent yet appeared (they're about to though; I just updated with the first two of this sort).  The tougher ones on later floors just wont be vulnerable to super-short-range weapons, and even if they are... these weapons are just pointless if nobody uses them, which makes them a waste to have in there when something else could be there.

To give an example of another game doing this, look at Isaac, and the "Number One" item.  It gives you high fire rate, but makes your range super short.  As such, nobody ever grabs it.  The only time they end up with that item is by sheer luck, if Curse of the Blind (makes all items look like ? marks) is active and an item just happens to be that one, so they grab it without knowing this.  Other than that, never used.  One of those "why is this even in here?  They could have put something interesting in there instead" sort of things.  We'd like to avoid having this happen in this game as much as possible.

That's not to say there wont be difficult and risky items, as I'm hoping that some like that can be made.  Risk and reward and all that. But they need to be difficult and risky in a way that isnt totally absurd, or they just become pointless to have.

....also, the range on those super short range weapons was REALLY short.   Like, your ship had to pretty much be TOUCHING the enemy in order to make contact.  Even I dont get THAT close to enemies when attacking them.

I'm not saying we keep the subweapons as being melee range only, but rather that there still be some mechanic that gives the player opportunities to be a badass and reward them for it due to the risk. As for your Isaac example, there is a clear difference between doing extra damage at close range, and simply having short range. I'm not saying we enforce close range combat (infact I think the range limitations are a bit excessive), but I think that simply having a damage *bonus* for being closer is worth exploring. Give people the chance to go above and beyond, if they are crazy enough, y'know?

Hm, I suppose.  But I do still think it's just going to be nigh-impossible to get close to some of them.  At least, based on the way I end up making these.

I've just placed an enemy called a Flak Launcher into the game... this guy will be a superb example of what I mean.  Should start appearing in the next version.  There'll be more enemies like that one (meant for the late-game only), though not always as nuts, that guy's in the "fearsome" category and will only appear in certain rooms (thus I've made a point of adding a couple more rooms for that type to appear in).  But still, even if others arent  quite as dangerous overall they'll often still be just as impossible to get that close to. 

Of course, before ANYTHING damage-bonus related is considered the normal damage has to be balanced out.  Things are still just all over the place sometimes.

Though, on the note of range in general, I do think that the base range for the player needs to be increased a bit.  Seems a bit short to me...  I could be wrong though?

[crazyroosterman]

Well, to put it a bit differently.... nobody will actually USE weapons like that.

After watching 10 squillion videos of people playing bullet-hell type shmups, one thing I've noticed is that nearly all of them stay as far away from the target as they can.  Only the best of the best will get close, and even then, it's just outright not viable against many enemies, often working only if the enemy hasnt fired at all yet.   In this game, that's not going to work, because most things will start firing before you get anywhere near them.  Even jumpscare types fire long before you get THAT close. 

Now, granted, it depends on the enemy type.  But as I said, I havent gotten nasty with these yet, so the "difficult" foes havent yet appeared (they're about to though; I just updated with the first two of this sort).  The tougher ones on later floors just wont be vulnerable to super-short-range weapons, and even if they are... these weapons are just pointless if nobody uses them, which makes them a waste to have in there when something else could be there.

To give an example of another game doing this, look at Isaac, and the "Number One" item.  It gives you high fire rate, but makes your range super short.  As such, nobody ever grabs it.  The only time they end up with that item is by sheer luck, if Curse of the Blind (makes all items look like ? marks) is active and an item just happens to be that one, so they grab it without knowing this.  Other than that, never used.  One of those "why is this even in here?  They could have put something interesting in there instead" sort of things.  We'd like to avoid having this happen in this game as much as possible.

That's not to say there wont be difficult and risky items, as I'm hoping that some like that can be made.  Risk and reward and all that. But they need to be difficult and risky in a way that isnt totally absurd, or they just become pointless to have.

....also, the range on those super short range weapons was REALLY short.   Like, your ship had to pretty much be TOUCHING the enemy in order to make contact.  Even I dont get THAT close to enemies when attacking them.

I'm not saying we keep the subweapons as being melee range only, but rather that there still be some mechanic that gives the player opportunities to be a badass and reward them for it due to the risk. As for your Isaac example, there is a clear difference between doing extra damage at close range, and simply having short range. I'm not saying we enforce close range combat (infact I think the range limitations are a bit excessive), but I think that simply having a damage *bonus* for being closer is worth exploring. Give people the chance to go above and beyond, if they are crazy enough, y'know?

Hm, I suppose.  But I do still think it's just going to be nigh-impossible to get close to some of them.  At least, based on the way I end up making these.

I've just placed an enemy called a Flak Launcher into the game... this guy will be a superb example of what I mean.  Should start appearing in the next version.  There'll be more enemies like that one (meant for the late-game only), though not always as nuts, that guy's in the "fearsome" category and will only appear in certain rooms (thus I've made a point of adding a couple more rooms for that type to appear in).  But still, even if others arent  quite as dangerous overall they'll often still be just as impossible to get that close to. 

Of course, before ANYTHING damage-bonus related is considered the normal damage has to be balanced out.  Things are still just all over the place sometimes.

Though, on the note of range in general, I do think that the base range for the player needs to be increased a bit.  Seems a bit short to me...  I could be wrong though?

personally I feel that the range is fine it wouldn't really change my feelings to secondary's I haven't a single shot weapon I've actually liked at all with the rate at which a lot of the enemy's move I usually tend to forget I have them and just use my main.

[Draco18s]

Let's put it this way:
If you had a weapon that did infinite damage, but had no tame, such that you had to ram enemies, taking 1 damage yourself: would you use it?

[Misery]

Let's put it this way:
If you had a weapon that did infinite damage, but had no tame, such that you had to ram enemies, taking 1 damage yourself: would you use it?

I know I wouldnt.  Particularly on higher difficulties where shields are low.  Wouldnt be worth it.  You'd only be able to use it a couple of times before needing to get more HP, while also putting yourself at risk of losing. 

And against stronger enemies, you're likely to take more than one hit trying to ram them.

[Draco18s]

Precisely. Which is why the damage/range tradeoff isn't always worth it. There's a minimum range down below where no benefits will offset the shortness. The 1 damage in the hypothetical was a stand-in for being shot while getting close.

[Gemzo]

Precisely. Which is why the damage/range tradeoff isn't always worth it. There's a minimum range down below where no benefits will offset the shortness. The 1 damage in the hypothetical was a stand-in for being shot while getting close.

You are completely misunderstanding my point... At no point did I say anything about reducing the player's range. (In fact I expressed approval of increasing range, especially for the subweapons that are/were too hard to use due to short range). All I mean is that If you know the enemies and their shot patterns/openings well enough that you don't need to fight at max range all the time, you should be rewarded for that.