The current difficulty (and a quick preview)

[keith.lamothe]

rocket frogs

:lightbulb:

[steelwing]

rocket frogs

:lightbulb:

So SBR just got replaced as the next Arcen title?

[Captain Jack]

Well, with Arcen games, anything at all could get ripped out at any time at all and turned into, I dunno, rocket frogs or something. Heck, I think I've now done it myself a couple of times, but I cant entirely remember anymore.  Nobody ever knows what to expect in this place.     I have learned this particular lesson well.

Hm?

Well, with Arcen games, anything at all could get ripped out at any time at all and turned into, I dunno, rocket frogs or something.

Hmmmm?

rocket frogs

SR IS FROG FRACTIONS 2, CONFIRMED!

[PokerChen]

Had a full run through to the end level 5. Aside from the Miniboss bug introduced in 0.850, the Warden's (1st?) danmaku phase become undodgable if you decide to run around at the start of it. The HP may be a bit high, but we'll see.

[Misery]

Had a full run through to the end level 5. Aside from the Miniboss bug introduced in 0.850, the Warden's (1st?) danmaku phase become undodgable if you decide to run around at the start of it. The HP may be a bit high, but we'll see.

Wait, which attack are you referring to?  I'm assuming you definitely dont mean the very first phase of it, with the guns in place.  There's no way THAT is undodgable, there's too much space.  Do you mean the attack with the white/pink strings?

Blasted modify button!

[TheVampire100]

Is it now intended that you can collect rockets and health packs while you are at your maximum? because I keep accidentilly collecting them and i hate to waste resources.

[Misery]

Is it now intended that you can collect rockets and health packs while you are at your maximum? because I keep accidentilly collecting them and i hate to waste resources.

Probably not.   Seems like a bug to me, as there's no reason why it would be that way on purpose.


Also on the note of the Warden's HP, the big problem right now is actually the item pools.  It's impossible to balance late-game stuff right now because those have been all over the place for much too long.  There's no way to get an idea as to what the player's power level is, on average, near the end of the game, or the middle of it.

It's actually a pretty huge problem because release day is so close, but testers are so limited in numbers right now.   And I cant rely just on my own testing for this.

For now, I'm going to adjust the blasted thing's HP for about the bazillionth time.

Also these "level up" messages need to be on the bottom of the screen, not in the middle.  I tell ya, this is NOT helping with testing/making hard-mode patterns.

[Misery]

Okay, I also tested the hell out of it's 2nd pattern, which is really the only one where it's shape is determined by your movement.  Even if I sprint around like a maniac in random directions for awhile, it's never literally undodgable.    .....for me, anyway, which may be part of the problem.

Though, that pattern is also meant to be taken slowly; chances are the player will learn that pretty quickly.   Even once harder versions of it are implemented, it's still going to be a "take it nice and slow" type attack.


Beyond that though, right now, one issue is that I've got a major lack of feedback on both the Warden, and Terminus (the true final boss, at the end of floor 7).  Hell, I'm not sure if anyone's even FOUGHT that thing yet.  Nobody's said anything about it.  Chris seems to think it's good, but yeah, that's basically the extent of the feedback on the thing.

Right now, it's looking like the Warden may be harder than Terminus is, which isnt supposed to be the case, but again, that's just from my own testing, which doesnt give me much at all to go by.

Both of these two can be tested in the test chamber, as with all of the bosses they now have their own selectable rooms.  It's worth noting that the Terminus fight actually consists of three opponents: Palisade, Sentinel, and then Terminus itself.  But the HP display at the top is displaying them all as "Terminus" just because.  So when the first one pops and nothing else happens, it's not bugged, it just means you need to move forward.  All three opponents together mean that there are four phases to this fight unlike the Warden's 5.

Of course, testing it right now (at least in my build) means that you enter either fight with just 8 HP, ONE freaking shield (what) and three missiles.  No, I dont know why....

[PokerChen]

Of course, testing it right now (at least in my build) means that you enter either fight with just 8 HP, ONE freaking shield (what) and three missiles.  No, I dont know why....

Part of the AP removal process dictates that level 1 players start with 1 shield and can get to 2 as they level. It does make it difficult to test.

I got to the Warden at level 9, killing only major bosses along the way (almost all minibosses can't spawn right now due to minor typo, I suspect)/

So you should give yourself 8 levels, several maximum health, and 7 after-boss powerup items, if it's possible to do so through a console. I had 24 max health, but only met the boss with 12 becuase of meeting about 8 of those 7x7-beasts that only spawns after level 4 or so. NB: this run also took 2+ hours to do because there's so many rooms and so much backtracking.

Okay, I also tested the hell out of it's 2nd pattern, which is really the only one where it's shape is determined by your movement.  Even if I sprint around like a maniac in random directions for awhile, it's never literally undodgable.    .....for me, anyway, which may be part of the problem.

Though, that pattern is also meant to be taken slowly; chances are the player will learn that pretty quickly.   Even once harder versions of it are implemented, it's still going to be a "take it nice and slow" type attack.

It depends on where and how fast you run, I'd think, (it's possible to corner a player, but not by much,) so my feedback isn't a sufficient reason alone to tweak it. Rather, I would predict that a portion of first-time encounters would be panic-deaths, as none of the other bosses beforehand are anywhere near as tough.

[Misery]

Of course, testing it right now (at least in my build) means that you enter either fight with just 8 HP, ONE freaking shield (what) and three missiles.  No, I dont know why....

Part of the AP removal process dictates that level 1 players start with 1 shield and can get to 2 as they level. It does make it difficult to test.

I got to the Warden at level 9, killing only major bosses along the way (almost all minibosses can't spawn right now due to minor typo, I suspect)/

So you should give yourself 8 levels, several maximum health, and 7 after-boss powerup items, if it's possible to do so through a console. I had 24 max health, but only met the boss with 12 becuase of meeting about 8 of those 7x7-beasts that only spawns after level 4 or so. NB: this run also took 2+ hours to do because there's so many rooms and so much backtracking.

Okay, I also tested the hell out of it's 2nd pattern, which is really the only one where it's shape is determined by your movement.  Even if I sprint around like a maniac in random directions for awhile, it's never literally undodgable.    .....for me, anyway, which may be part of the problem.

Though, that pattern is also meant to be taken slowly; chances are the player will learn that pretty quickly.   Even once harder versions of it are implemented, it's still going to be a "take it nice and slow" type attack.

It depends on where and how fast you run, I'd think, (it's possible to corner a player, but not by much,) so my feedback isn't a sufficient reason alone to tweak it. Rather, I would predict that a portion of first-time encounters would be panic-deaths, as none of the other bosses beforehand are anywhere near as tough.

Well, mostly when trying to figure out difficulty I"m going off of "How easy is it for me to get hit by such-and-such pattern?" instead of stats and such, but still, good point, I'll do that next time I test it.  Particularly now that it seems the new build has changed ALOT of stuff.  Need to go do another full run myself now to see how it all is.  The three missile thing bugs me though.

I'm curious, what 7x7 thing were you running into that was causing so much trouble?

[PokerChen]

I'm curious, what 7x7 thing were you running into that was causing so much trouble?

Oh that - it's the Flak Launcher, due to the fact that it fires about 10x as many bullets at you, 1/3rd of them terrain piercing. One isn't a big problem, but there's also an arena with 4 7x7 spawns. With 4 of them on "AllTheTime" firing patterns, it gets more intense.

[Misery]

I'm curious, what 7x7 thing were you running into that was causing so much trouble?

Oh that - it's the Flak Launcher, due to the fact that it fires about 10x as many bullets at you, 1/3rd of them terrain piercing. One isn't a big problem, but there's also an arena with 4 7x7 spawns. With 4 of them on "AllTheTime" firing patterns, it gets more intense.

Ohhhh.... THAT room.  I know that room.

The Flak Launcher is mostly working as intended (there's actually something now that fires more shots than that one though ) but.... yeah 4 at once in that room is fantastically terrible luck.

I dont remember giving them the ability to fire through walls though..... huh.  Since you've mentioned that, I'm going to go change it real quick.  Shouldnt be doing that.

[keith.lamothe]

Check for the bullet pattern using never_collides_with_terrain="true"; I changed one of the condemned bosses to use that since the last release (it's a performance-saving-flag intended for when stuff is just shooting curtains and curtains of bullets and all that matters is whether the player dodges, not where the walls are) and I think a lot of other things used the same bullet. Though I don't think that was in your stuff.

There's also Chris's recent addition of shots_never_collide_with_terrain to system, though I don't know if that was actually in this release.

[Misery]

Check for the bullet pattern using never_collides_with_terrain="true"; I changed one of the condemned bosses to use that since the last release (it's a performance-saving-flag intended for when stuff is just shooting curtains and curtains of bullets and all that matters is whether the player dodges, not where the walls are) and I think a lot of other things used the same bullet. Though I don't think that was in your stuff.

There's also Chris's recent addition of shots_never_collide_with_terrain to system, though I don't know if that was actually in this release.

I went and made the change just now, it had just been using the two old tags.  But they're gone now.   Cant imagine what the heck they were doing there.  Some sort of copy-pasta disaster, I assume.  Which I then never noticed.

[PokerChen]

shots_never_collide_with_terrain is in the release and working perfectly, thankyou.