The current difficulty (and a quick preview)

[PokerChen]

In terms of AP gained after a run, I would like to see some reductions to both AP-loss from:
 - getting hit (you'd have to get hit in order to lose a run, so there are already losses to the AP you would otherwise have gained by winning),
 - time taken in battle (How does the game count this? I don't want to penalise players as much for making a more careful run).

 The above two stood out as being a little steep, given that a sense of player progression is important even when they lose a series of runs. They can spend a lot of AP to unlock a good item.

 = = =
 If we had time, I would have suggested re-casting this as "bonus AP" for finishing a room unscathed, for example, and inflate the prices a bit. General public has a tendency for positive-thinking.

[Misery]

Vestige was pretty hard compared to bosses I've seen so far (Wallmaster, Crystal Mother and Battleswarm).

Also AP has an use? 

Aye, those three bosses are meant to be early-game ones.

And AP is used to unlock and/or buy new items at the start of a new run.

[garpu]

In terms of AP gained after a run, I would like to see some reductions to both AP-loss from:
 - getting hit (you'd have to get hit in order to lose a run, so there are already losses to the AP you would otherwise have gained by winning),
 - time taken in battle (How does the game count this? I don't want to penalise players as much for making a more careful run).

 The above two stood out as being a little steep, given that a sense of player progression is important even when they lose a series of runs. They can spend a lot of AP to unlock a good item.

My thoughts, exactly from playing the build from this morning.  (haven't had a chance to play the build from tonight.) 

[TheVampire100]

So far I find the difficulty fine and that is coming from soneone who never beat the game. I think there should at least be some challenge for the player, he shouldn't be able to run through his first attempt. Five/seven floors aren't even that long. If I compare it to Isaac, it has a similiar feeling in difficulty: Isaac is way too hard for me, when i first beat the mother I was glad to finish the game for the first time. It took a lot of runs to manage that, a lot of trial and error and in the end I did it. The same is with Starward Rogue, I want to learn from every death and push forward, eventually beating the game, also if the game would be manageable with single attempts, there would be no need for the AP system.

Just a quick question: I don't get what health shards actually do.

[Misery]

So far I find the difficulty fine and that is coming from soneone who never beat the game. I think there should at least be some challenge for the player, he shouldn't be able to run through his first attempt. Five/seven floors aren't even that long. If I compare it to Isaac, it has a similiar feeling in difficulty: Isaac is way too hard for me, when i first beat the mother I was glad to finish the game for the first time. It took a lot of runs to manage that, a lot of trial and error and in the end I did it. The same is with Starward Rogue, I want to learn from every death and push forward, eventually beating the game, also if the game would be manageable with single attempts, there would be no need for the AP system.

Just a quick question: I don't get what health shards actually do.

Okay the "quote" button needs to not be right next to the "modify" button here.... *ahem*

Anyway, the health shards are supposed to let you build up your max HP over the course of the game.  You get a couple of them, your max HP goes up.  And you try to find as many as you can.  But right now, they dont do anything, I'm pretty sure they're bugged.  It's been brought up a couple of times, but things are just a BIT crazy right now, so.... yeah....

[nas1m]

In terms of AP gained after a run, I would like to see some reductions to both AP-loss from:
 - getting hit (you'd have to get hit in order to lose a run, so there are already losses to the AP you would otherwise have gained by winning),
 - time taken in battle (How does the game count this? I don't want to penalise players as much for making a more careful run).

 The above two stood out as being a little steep, given that a sense of player progression is important even when they lose a series of runs. They can spend a lot of AP to unlock a good item.

 = = =
 If we had time, I would have suggested re-casting this as "bonus AP" for finishing a room unscathed, for example, and inflate the prices a bit. General public has a tendency for positive-thinking.

I second this.

[nas1m]

Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal .

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know .

Okay, one thing that might help here as you're playing it, if you can give a few examples of rooms that are crowded, or have enemies of the wrong size in them, or whatever, and maybe take some screenshots and send them my way, that'd go a long way towards fixing that one.  I dont think that bit has to do with level gating at all; it has to do with categories and placement within rooms, which is a whole seperate matter.  In some cases, the rooms themselves may simply need small alterations, which is to be expected. Or certain enemies may need to be set into different category types.  But I'd like to get an idea of just what you mean before doing anything about that stuff, so screenshots would help.   If you have the time that is.

Just to follow this up:
I have not come across rooms feeling too crowded or inappropriately populated in terms if enemy types in my intermediate playtime - although it was not that much.

Looks like my issue really was not being able to see far enough due to using a small screen and gamepad controls (for zooming).

[Misery]

In terms of AP gained after a run, I would like to see some reductions to both AP-loss from:
 - getting hit (you'd have to get hit in order to lose a run, so there are already losses to the AP you would otherwise have gained by winning),
 - time taken in battle (How does the game count this? I don't want to penalise players as much for making a more careful run).

 The above two stood out as being a little steep, given that a sense of player progression is important even when they lose a series of runs. They can spend a lot of AP to unlock a good item.

 = = =
 If we had time, I would have suggested re-casting this as "bonus AP" for finishing a room unscathed, for example, and inflate the prices a bit. General public has a tendency for positive-thinking.

Might be worth making a Mantis report on this one.  I'm really doubting Chris has much time to check the forums in a detailed way right now... hell, I woke up to 68 emails today myself.  68!  I dont even want to know how many he's dealing with each day.

I dont have any particular thoughts on this issue myself; I always seem to end up with a ton of AP at the end of each floor.


I'm going to stop accidentally clicking the "modify" button one of these days here.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm going to stop accidentally clicking the "modify" button one of these days here.

I used to do that all the time in the first year or so.

[PokerChen]

Added it to Mantis, was waiting to see if a couple of other people agreed.

[Misery]

Added it to Mantis, was waiting to see if a couple of other people agreed.

It's about to become a non-issue anyway.   I'll not say why because I'm never sure if I should; seriously, every time I reveal something I"m just taking a guess and hoping it's not something I shouldnt say, hah.   Nobody ever seems to mind (notice?) but still, this time I wont.

But it's looking to be a very good solution, and not one that you'd expect.  A really good idea from Chris that I think should help a ton. 

[keith.lamothe]

It's about to become a non-issue anyway.   I'll not say why because I'm never sure if I should; seriously, every time I reveal something I"m just taking a guess and hoping it's not something I shouldnt say, hah.   Nobody ever seems to mind (notice?) but still, this time I wont.

Don't worry, we only send out the hunter/killer bots after the project.

More seriously, I think most of it's in the patch notes now.

[Misery]

It's about to become a non-issue anyway.   I'll not say why because I'm never sure if I should; seriously, every time I reveal something I"m just taking a guess and hoping it's not something I shouldnt say, hah.   Nobody ever seems to mind (notice?) but still, this time I wont.

Don't worry, we only send out the hunter/killer bots after the project.

More seriously, I think most of it's in the patch notes now.

....oh.   Right.   That stuff all ends up showing in there anyway.

Sure, I knew that.... of course....

[keith.lamothe]

....oh.   Right.   That stuff all ends up showing in there anyway.

Sure, I knew that.... of course....

When it's implemented

I tend not to talk about stuff that's not actually checked in yet, because I'm never sure before then if it's actually going to go in. Even then, some things get ripped out after implementation and before the next public version.

[Misery]

....oh.   Right.   That stuff all ends up showing in there anyway.

Sure, I knew that.... of course....

When it's implemented

I tend not to talk about stuff that's not actually checked in yet, because I'm never sure before then if it's actually going to go in. Even then, some things get ripped out after implementation and before the next public version.

Well, with Arcen games, anything at all could get ripped out at any time at all and turned into, I dunno, rocket frogs or something. Heck, I think I've now done it myself a couple of times, but I cant entirely remember anymore.  Nobody ever knows what to expect in this place.     I have learned this particular lesson well.