The current difficulty (and a quick preview)

[Misery]

Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal .

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know .

Okay, one thing that might help here as you're playing it, if you can give a few examples of rooms that are crowded, or have enemies of the wrong size in them, or whatever, and maybe take some screenshots and send them my way, that'd go a long way towards fixing that one.  I dont think that bit has to do with level gating at all; it has to do with categories and placement within rooms, which is a whole seperate matter.  In some cases, the rooms themselves may simply need small alterations, which is to be expected. Or certain enemies may need to be set into different category types.  But I'd like to get an idea of just what you mean before doing anything about that stuff, so screenshots would help.   If you have the time that is. 

[nas1m]

Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal .

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know .

Okay, one thing that might help here as you're playing it, if you can give a few examples of rooms that are crowded, or have enemies of the wrong size in them, or whatever, and maybe take some screenshots and send them my way, that'd go a long way towards fixing that one.  I dont think that bit has to do with level gating at all; it has to do with categories and placement within rooms, which is a whole seperate matter.  In some cases, the rooms themselves may simply need small alterations, which is to be expected. Or certain enemies may need to be set into different category types.  But I'd like to get an idea of just what you mean before doing anything about that stuff, so screenshots would help.   If you have the time that is.

Sure. I will do that as soon as I get some playtime again.

[nas1m]

Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal .

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know .

Okay, one thing that might help here as you're playing it, if you can give a few examples of rooms that are crowded, or have enemies of the wrong size in them, or whatever, and maybe take some screenshots and send them my way, that'd go a long way towards fixing that one.  I dont think that bit has to do with level gating at all; it has to do with categories and placement within rooms, which is a whole seperate matter.  In some cases, the rooms themselves may simply need small alterations, which is to be expected. Or certain enemies may need to be set into different category types.  But I'd like to get an idea of just what you mean before doing anything about that stuff, so screenshots would help.   If you have the time that is.

I think I have come across another point that gave me trouble.
I just switched back to mouse controls just to to check how it goes and what I noticed is this:
Is it possible that player range is reduced while the player is moving?!
It definitely looked this way from a visual perspective. As soon as the mech stops range seems to be significantly bigger.

The reason I did not notice this before is easy: I am using the zoom function next to never during the action if using gamepad controls. Using the mouse, however, I use them often. Observing player range in a fairly zoomed out view made recognize the above.

If it is real, this reduction may well be a big part of my trouble using gamepad controls, since I am forced to move almost always in this case due to my inability to zoom dynamically during the action.

Using the mouse feels *a lot* easier at the moment...

[Misery]

Until enemies are restricted to their floors, I don't think we can give any decent feedback about difficulty. There's no curve yet. Maybe make a preliminary version and then we can give some better feedback.

It's not about the curve right now; that'll come later.  I'm talking more of an overall "do you beat the game, or just die alot" sort of thing.

Currently, in my case this will be mostly influencing upcoming enemy/boss designs (a huge part of why I'm asking).

More in-depth discussion of difficulty beyond this will come later.  Just a simple overview for now.

Definitely "Die a lot on the first to second floor" for me on Normal .

Huh.... I'm curious, is there anything specific that's giving you alot of trouble?  While it's true that enemies arent entirely gated by floor yet, the nastiest of them actually already ARE, and beyond that, alot of the really tough ones arent there yet.  This makes me wonder if there's something causing unintended trouble.

Not sure here actually.
I used to be able to get to the fourth floor without too much trouble in the first builds actually.
This might have been caused by overpowered energy weapons, though (like acid sprayer iirc).

My attempt to switch from mouse to gamepad controls may be part of my subpar performance lately, though.
The analog stick aiming feels a little - sluggish, maybe? I don't know. I feel like I get less shots out that way -  and I definitely have not yet learned the firing directions associated to the face buttons by heart yet I guess. Diagonal aiming (which I did a lot using the mouse) also is much harder this way, at least to me...

Finally enemy gating, definitely is part of the issue, although maybe not always in the sense that you have in mind.
In some runs a lot of rooms feel quite crowded, especially with bigger enemies being around. So the occurance of certain enemies in certain rooms may well be part of the issue.

On the other hand I just might not be practicing enough - not much gaming time these days and I am getting rusty.
In general things are going fine until I get hit (which can take quite a number of rooms), but once I do I often seem to fail to extract myself from the situation in a graceful way, you know .

Okay, one thing that might help here as you're playing it, if you can give a few examples of rooms that are crowded, or have enemies of the wrong size in them, or whatever, and maybe take some screenshots and send them my way, that'd go a long way towards fixing that one.  I dont think that bit has to do with level gating at all; it has to do with categories and placement within rooms, which is a whole seperate matter.  In some cases, the rooms themselves may simply need small alterations, which is to be expected. Or certain enemies may need to be set into different category types.  But I'd like to get an idea of just what you mean before doing anything about that stuff, so screenshots would help.   If you have the time that is.

I think I have come across anothe rpoint that gave me trouble.
I just switched back to mouth controls just to to check how it goes and what I noticed is this:
Is it possible that player range is reduced while the player is moving?!
It definitely looked this way from a visual perspective. As soon as the mech stops range seems to be significantly bigger.

The reason I did not notice this before is easy: I am using the zoom function next to never during the action if using gamepad controls. Using the mouse, however, I use them often. OBserving player range in a failry zoomed out view made e rcognize the above.

If it is real, this reduction may well be a big part of my trouble using gamepad controls, since I am forced to move almost always in this case due to my inability to zoom dynamically during the action.

Using the mouse feels *a lot* easier at the moment...

Hmm, that stuff I cannot really speak of, except for the range bit.

The zoom is something I'd never use; screen stays default for me.  Basic rooms fit entirely in it anyway, and zooming in is typically not a good idea (cant watch threats that I cant see), so I've never touched it.

And the mouse... ugh.  No.  I dont even try it.  Me trying to use a mouse/keyboard for a game like this (or, well, for nearly any game) is a recipe for disaster and derp.  I have no thoughts on it whatsoever.

Also, your range is not reduced while moving as far as I can tell.  The bullets you fire are moving at the exact same speed and distance they always do, but it seems shorter because you're moving towards them as you fire.  Move backwards and watch it visually "extend", but they dont actually travel any further.   This actually happens in TONS of games of this type.  Most of them, actually.  From normal shmups to things like Isaac.

[Pepisolo]

Just did a few runs with my game face on, think it was 6 or 7 runs, 3 victories. Difficulty seems fine overall, probably made a bit harder by most of the special weapons being underpowered with the new energy system. I fought the Labyrinth boss again and won this time. The most difficult bit seemed to be the homing shot that chases you around, I just ended up tanking through it for the most part, although that was probably a bad strategy. One thing about this boss, I like the multi-phase thing, but it seems like you might've got the phases the wrong way around. It seems like a more climactic progression would be to go from the four corner enemy form to the big central form, rather than the other way around.

Edit: hmmm, just realized it's not a multi-stage thing, everything spawns at once......probably just disregard the above comment then!

[Misery]

Just did a few runs with my game face on, think it was 6 or 7 runs, 3 victories. Difficulty seems fine overall, probably made a bit harder by most of the special weapons being underpowered with the new energy system. I fought the Labyrinth boss again and won this time. The most difficult bit seemed to be the homing shot that chases you around, I just ended up tanking through it for the most part, although that was probably a bad strategy. One thing about this boss, I like the multi-phase thing, but it seems like you might've got the phases the wrong way around. It seems like a more climactic progression would be to go from the four corner enemy form to the big central form, rather than the other way around.

Edit: hmmm, just realized it's not a multi-stage thing, everything spawns at once......probably just disregard the above comment then!

The way the thing is supposed to work is that only the boss can be damaged, and then the turrets all go down once the boss is defeated; the turrets are there to form the pattern of roving "walls" that you need to navigate through.

Buuuuuut there wasnt a way yet to make this occur.  In the current version of the game, or at least the current version that I have, there is now an invincibility mechanic in place that works similarly; the final boss uses this in it's first phase.  I'll do something with this for the Labyrinth boss later so that the turrets rely on the boss.

[Pepisolo]

The way the thing is supposed to work is that only the boss can be damaged, and then the turrets all go down once the boss is defeated; the turrets are there to form the pattern of roving "walls" that you need to navigate through.

Buuuuuut there wasnt a way yet to make this occur.  In the current version of the game, or at least the current version that I have, there is now an invincibility mechanic in place that works similarly; the final boss uses this in it's first phase.  I'll do something with this for the Labyrinth boss later so that the turrets rely on the boss.

I see, yeah, sounds good.

[garpu]

Way late to the table with this, sorry!  Only had a little time to play, but I like the difficulty so far.  It's not so difficult I can't complete a floor, but I do have to give it some thought/skill, as well.  The addition of AP makes it so failed runs aren't quite so punishing.  (That is, there's some incentive to keep trying.)  I also like the change from a ship flying around in a ship to a drone/mecha type of thing. (It also hearkens back to Bionic Dues a bit.)

[crazyroosterman]

Way late to the table with this, sorry!  Only had a little time to play, but I like the difficulty so far.  It's not so difficult I can't complete a floor, but I do have to give it some thought/skill, as well.  The addition of AP makes it so failed runs aren't quite so punishing.  (That is, there's some incentive to keep trying.)  I also like the change from a ship flying around in a ship to a drone/mecha type of thing. (It also hearkens back to Bionic Dues a bit.)

no problem it'll be nice to get a new perspective its been fairly quite around here lately.

[donblas]

Been playing a bit more post move to mech. Thoughts on difficulty (I also really like the move to a mech).

- Difficulty if anything is a bit high, but not on average. On average, with recharging shields, I can do 2-3 floors, which is good for someone of my skill.
- The problem is that the "average" enemy is easy and then something that feels completely unfair hoses me.
- For example, those shots that shoot out and then explode into a stream of arrows, they speed up when they "turn" corners. They've snipped me multiple times.

I'm really looking forward to more meta-progression.

[Misery]

Been playing a bit more post move to mech. Thoughts on difficulty (I also really like the move to a mech).

- Difficulty if anything is a bit high, but not on average. On average, with recharging shields, I can do 2-3 floors, which is good for someone of my skill.
- The problem is that the "average" enemy is easy and then something that feels completely unfair hoses me.
- For example, those shots that shoot out and then explode into a stream of arrows, they speed up when they "turn" corners. They've snipped me multiple times.

I'm really looking forward to more meta-progression.

That third bit you mention, do you know which enemy it is that does that?

[donblas]

I just played a round to find it. I couldn't get the name before it shot me but

- It was a purple, triangle ship
- That shoots a purple shot that spreads out
- And it tracks around corners kinda funny
- Floor 2

[Misery]

I just played a round to find it. I couldn't get the name before it shot me but

- It was a purple, triangle ship
- That shoots a purple shot that spreads out
- And it tracks around corners kinda funny
- Floor 2

I actually went to try to figure out which one this was.

...and then realized.... I changed many of the ship images around, for the version I have.  Alot of them were placeholders, I went and gave them some of the new art that's been prepared, so... yeah.  Makes it hard to figure out which one it is.  I probably shoulda kept track of what they USED to be before I did that....

When you run into the thing again, just let me know, and I'll have a look at it and see if anything needs to be done about it.

[garpu]

We lose AP for getting hit?  Sometimes it's unavoidable.  Could the penalty be lessened for lower difficulties?  Right now it feels a bit too punishing, especially for people who aren't good at these sorts of games.  The first time AP went in, I could at least buy new gear at the start of a run.  Now it seems like I never have AP's.

[Endymion]

Vestige was pretty hard compared to bosses I've seen so far (Wallmaster, Crystal Mother and Battleswarm).

Also AP has an use?