New room type idea discussion!

[Misery]

Okay, so, the problem of areas feeling way too same-y was brought up by Pepisolo on Mantis and then here on the forums, as you've all seen; check out that topic for some more info on that if you havent already.

It's a pretty important issue; having things be too repetitive could really hurt the game as a whole.

So right now, we're trying to come up with some totally new room types that could be added to the game.   I dont just mean "special" rooms that appear like, on the side of the maze.  I'm thinking rooms that could appear in the same places that the normal combat rooms do.

To give an example, here's an idea that I just sent to Chris:

Since the game is so much about shooting stuff, even moreso than other games in the genre, I was thinking that one possible thing could be a target that either moves around and tries to avoid the player (and rooms could be constructed around this) or also one that needs to be popped multiple times, and each time it's destroyed, it appears in another place.   You could have the editor use something like numbered spawn points for such a thing, and when the first entity is destroyed, the next spawn spot activates and a new one appears.  The targets themselves would not fire at the player, they just need to be hunted down in order to clear the room.   For a room that does that, the tiles where the thing spawns should probably be easily noticed on the ground, so the player can enter the room, look around, and get a good idea as to how things might play out.

The HP of the target entity could probably increase over the course of the dungeon; shouldnt take a million years to pop, but it shouldnt just go down in an instant either.

This room would also be populated with special and probably indestructible entities that have their own very unique patterns, designed to create a dangerous gauntlet you must navigate, but also one where your weapons and attack-related abilities arent going to save you.  This might have a side effect of making it so that maneuverability items and defensive items become that much more attractive.   But the point is, a room like this would break things up a bit.   The indestructible turret things (or whatever they end up being) would instantly be destroyed upon clearing the goal of the room.  For these rooms, perhaps a shockwave might also be in order, not sure.

But beyond that, any ideas for "special" type rooms, the ones not part of the main maze, could also be helpful.

The one I've come up with so far:

Actually now that I think about it, there's another idea I have; a room that might be pretty optional, appearing more as a special room than anything else; it'd be a little similar in that it'd be a gauntlet of turret things and dangerous stuff, but the entire goal is simply to get to a certain point either within a certain amount of time, or even just without getting hit.  Do so and a treasure box appears, or something like that.   A timed room of any sort appearing in such a place where you HAVE to go through it is probably a bad idea.  But as a seperate special thing you might have the option to do, it could work maybe.

That one's a very unrefined idea because I thought it up in the space of like 5 seconds, but still, it's something.


So if any of you guys have any ideas at all for things of this nature that can help give differing goals and break up the game's pacing a bit, that'd help a ton!

[Pepisolo]

Here are are some ideas that rely on two main technical changes, the changes being the ability to time spawns, and the creation of a wall hatch spawner as a way to smoothly transition the spawns into the room. If both of these technical challenges could be met, then the following ideas should be feasible, as well as probably a few more variations.


Security Lockdown

Let's say that there is a room with no enemies, but which contains an interesting pickup. The unusual thing is that this pickup is inside a glass case. In this room, the player either has the choice to exit immediately or attempt to smash and grab. Upon smashing the case, the room immediately goes into lockdown, a siren blares, and in through the spawning hatches emerge some timed waves of enemies. It's still pure combat, but the waves are more controlled, and it has the interesting mechanic of allowing the player to weigh up the reward grab knowing that they will be able to use it during the battle. (I believe there are similar rooms in Issac).


Stay in the Light

(Heavily *inspired* by the Torchlight Luminous Zones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtLnsvZSEiw)

These would be large rooms, probably much longer and twisty then any others so far in the game, that would pretty much be gauntlets of death. You start in a darkened room, then a circle of light appears. The circle of light slowly moves throughout the room, and you must stay within it. Every second you spend outside of the circle, you start taking damage. Enemy spawns would be timed based on the position of the circle. On successfully surviving the gauntlet, the room is cleared of all enemies and a teleporter would appear at the start and end of the room in order to make backtracking easier. The cool thing about this idea, is that it's like having a forced scrolling section, but the player is the one who is handling the scroll with no scroll programming required. You can't turn back or you're dead, same with going forward. Additionally, technically, the engine already seems capable of having a light entity path it's way through the room, it would effectively just be a slow moving bullet pattern. Speed 200. Wait 6 seconds. Change angle. Wait 5 seconds. Speed 0. Wait 10 seconds, etc.


Generic Timed Spawns Ideas

Seems like you could do a lot if timed spawns were possible. Have a room which in addition to having enemies in, also spawns timed enemies in. You're job is to kill the room enemies as fast as possible, otherwise the hatch spawners are going to get progressively harder. Finish the job quick. Or have a room that completely shuts down all weapon systems. The room starts filling with kamikaze drones, your job is to keep dodging for a set amount of time before the room is cleared. Or have a room which has a security shut down button, your job is to reach the button before you are overrun by enemies.

Timed spawns! Opens up a few possibilities. Unfortunately, probably sounds like a post 1.0 addition to the room-editor as that would probably need an overhaul to allow the ability to organize a spawn list with timings etc, but hey Chris said keep the ideas flowing.

[Bluddy]

My 2 cents: I think it's more important to differentiate between floors than between rooms. I don't have a problem with the randomness on any specific floor. In some ways, it's better to not have rooms that are too distinct, because then the player picks up on the pattern. But it's disappointing to finish a level and arrive at another, very similar level.
In Isaac and Nuclear Throne, the enemies are very distinct and they change throughout the levels. The ship enemies aren't really that distinct, and so, the level change isn't so obvious -- at least from my limited experience.

- Could we have some levels where you don't have to beat a boss, but instead waves of enemies? Bosses are the most repetitive element of this kind of game (same thing in Isaac and Nuclear Throne).
- Levels definitely need to have a distinct artistic style.
- Random Modifiers: per-floor, and per-room. Random modifiers could make enemies/you faster, stronger, weaker, fiery etc.

[Pepisolo]

My 2 cents: I think it's more important to differentiate between floors than between rooms. I don't have a problem with the randomness on any specific floor. In some ways, it's better to not have rooms that are too distinct, because then the player picks up on the pattern. But it's disappointing to finish a level and arrive at another, very similar level.
In Isaac and Nuclear Throne, the enemies are very distinct and they change throughout the levels. The ship enemies aren't really that distinct, and so, the level change isn't so obvious -- at least from my limited experience.

- Could we have some levels where you don't have to beat a boss, but instead waves of enemies? Bosses are the most repetitive element of this kind of game (same thing in Isaac and Nuclear Throne).
- Levels definitely need to have a distinct artistic style.
- Random Modifiers: per-floor, and per-room. Random modifiers could make enemies/you faster, stronger, weaker, fiery etc.

Great points. A lack of variety in the lower levels is fine, actually it's to be expected and it gives the player a chance to ease into the run with some simple stuff. Moving down levels and having no variety as you go through each floor, though -- now that's boring! There should be some attempt at theming the floors a bit, which seems a bit tricky given how little control there seems to be over spawns via the editor, but it's badly needed. If each colour of floor had it's own particular character and signature enemies things would be tons better -- actually are there going to be any different tilesets...I presume so. If I were to go down to a red floor, as a player I could think, "please, no, this is where Arks spawn".

Your idea about random modifiers could work, too, I think the engine has already got some functionality in this area. Let's say that the player generates a Berserk floor, where all enemies gain in speed and strength for a while after hit that'd add some interesting gameplay. If the items on the floor then also had a chance to have this property, a TurboBlaster of the Berserk, for example, then that would also be a pretty cool reward and introduce a lot of replay value as players hunt for the perfect combination of weapon and modifier.

A revamp of the floor spawning and theming would add a lot to the game. Throw out all the existing spawn categories and draw up designs on which enemies fit and are supposed to appear in each different tileset and the game would be way more interesting. Instead, what it seems like we're going to get is all enemies jumbled into a pool, with maybe the harder ones reserved for the lower floors, but that's about it.

[Captain Jack]

How about a survival room? There's a single invincible structure that creates enemies with its own life. After producing a certain number of waves, it dies.

I actually agree with the above posters though, the current "problem" with SR's variety is the inability to measure progress between floors.

[Misery]

My 2 cents: I think it's more important to differentiate between floors than between rooms. I don't have a problem with the randomness on any specific floor. In some ways, it's better to not have rooms that are too distinct, because then the player picks up on the pattern. But it's disappointing to finish a level and arrive at another, very similar level.
In Isaac and Nuclear Throne, the enemies are very distinct and they change throughout the levels. The ship enemies aren't really that distinct, and so, the level change isn't so obvious -- at least from my limited experience.

- Could we have some levels where you don't have to beat a boss, but instead waves of enemies? Bosses are the most repetitive element of this kind of game (same thing in Isaac and Nuclear Throne).
- Levels definitely need to have a distinct artistic style.
- Random Modifiers: per-floor, and per-room. Random modifiers could make enemies/you faster, stronger, weaker, fiery etc.

The art, honestly, will probably be the thing that really determines this one.  As a rule, games in this genre have little difference between floors as far as the actual gameplay goes, and frankly, this is likely to end up very similarly.

Enemy "waves" I'd be against because A: only certain enemies would be applicable due to movement patterns (only a couple of very specific types would work here), and B: the game isnt really designed for it, and neither are the enemies.  Only the absolute weakest foes are viable for "waves", and even then, not necessarily.  The idea of things like enemy groups/swarms (and I dont just mean the little groups that the funky "swarm" enemy type does, considering how they work) were an idea that originally I'd wanted to do in this, like, you know, large numbers of "popcorn" enemies in a room like you'd see in a shmup, but Chris had pointed out a large variety of reasons against it, all of which were good, and the idea was immediately scrapped.

Further into development now and seeing where things are going, I'm absolutely certain he was right about that one. 

There's also the simple fact that, in games with shmup elements, everyone expects a boss.  I can see people deciding that "waves" instead of a big metal monster are "lazy" somehow, because people tend to think that way, much to my nonstop annoyance.  Not to mention players thinking something like "why is it just more enemies?  I JUST fought a ton of these guys all over the floor".

Though, this is part of what some of the special rooms are meant to do, such as that whole idea of the survival room where all you do is dodge a ton of crap for a certain amount of time. 


Random modifiers wouldnt really work here either, at least not for enemies/bosses.  For many of them, the moment a stat changes, is the moment their attacks become distorted and possibly undodgable.   This wont be as apparent right NOW as it will be later when some of them receive hard-mode upgrades.   That one's a big no-no.   As for stuff that affects the player, hmm.... I dunno.  It'd have to be something that wouldnt do anything to the player's controls; in a game like this, THAT would do nothing but enrage the sorts of players that are likely to be attracted to this.  Hell, it'd do the same in other games too (cant think of any that do this, actually).  This whole concept of modifiers usually isnt seen in action-roguelikes but only in turn-based, for the most part.  It ends up being too difficult to get right.  Hell, Isaac, one of the best ones there is, does it, and it does it COMPLETELY WRONG.   None of the modifiers actually add a single thing to the experience, and every single one of them is *just* annoying.  Not challenging or requiring you to think, no, *just* annoying.  If even that game cant get it right (or come anywhere remotely near) it's just proof that it isnt going to fit this genre. 


The one thing that I *know* will change, at least, is the simple fact that right now, every enemy (well, most of them) appears on any floor.  By the time the game launches, every enemy will be set to certain floors or certain ranges.  This goes for the bosses too, most of them are just set to appear wherever, certain specific ones are set to floor 4 or higher.

As for the enemies being distinct visually.... that one, there's nothing really to do anything about.  Outside of the actual attack patterns, that's all about the art, and that's stuff that there definitely isnt time for (because a huge amount of it is about animation and stuff).   And dont forget, even Isaac re-uses the funky hell out of art assets, when it comes to enemies.  Even the big expansion to Rebirth didn't actually add that many GENUINELY new enemies to the game; what it mostly did was add typical "palette swaps", enemies that were altered to look just a little different, instead of being totally new creations (and have slightly differing or added to patterns).   Such as Gapers with slightly different art for their faces or Maggots that were a different color and just shot bullets when destroyed.  The expansion added a TON of stuff like these, and the game was already big on "palette swaps" to begin with.

NT is the game that differentiates enemies the most.... but it also has by far the fewest of them, and it's likely to never have any more added past where they are now.  Individual ones in that game took a VERY long time to make.  The very low count of total enemy types in that game still remains one of my big complaints with it.  And while they're differentiated very much in APPEARANCE, when it comes to FUNCTION.... they're very, very same-y.  That one is THE thing that bugs me with that game.  After the 10th enemy type that does literally nothing but try to crash into you, well, ya sorta get tired of it...  and what few enemies there are that do shoot at you (without being IDPD), most of them have extremely simplistic shot patterns.  Usually just variations of either firing a single bullet, or firing exactly 3 at once.   And a couple that dont actually have a unique attack, but are simply firing shot types used by a couple of specific player weapons (Gators).   There's certainly exceptions of course, but the variety is definitely a bit low in that game; fortunately it's set up in such a way where this doesnt actually matter all that much.

How about a survival room? There's a single invincible structure that creates enemies with its own life. After producing a certain number of waves, it dies.

I actually agree with the above posters though, the current "problem" with SR's variety is the inability to measure progress between floors.

There's a survival room coming.  But the idea is that there's instead indestructible things firing at you constantly; you cant destroy them, so your only goal is to dodge and survive till time runs out and the things burst.  Needless to say this isnt playable yet.


There's also one more new thing PROBABLY coming; I dont want to say what it is just yet, just in case, but it's a thing Chris has decided he really wants to do here, but it'll sure as heck be different than everything else.  So there is at least something new probably coming already.