Author Topic: Impressions after 2 hours  (Read 3417 times)

Offline PokerChen

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Impressions after 2 hours
« on: January 10, 2016, 07:43:03 am »
The elements are there, although they are not quite linking up for the fun element. Several issues have been mantis'ed and therefore not mentioned here. These points are for discussions, or that I'm assuming the polish will be added into 0.900.

Some notes on the graphics:
  • A couple bullet effects don't stand out enough from the environment  (e.g. a fan of green bolts from XXX). Either white or black will do (consider special attacks to be off different art scheme, like the Hunter's web.
  • Similarly, the art-style makes it sometimes difficult to immediately single out enemies from the environment. Enemy flying ships can remain stationary without some sort of engine trail or glow, which may hide themselves from some less-observant players when within a room full of obstacles.
  • Lack of hit animations, regarding shields on the human player and damage effects. Is a polish thing.

Notes on gameplay:
  • Player:
  • Weapons and specials with short ranges are practically useless without some form of reliable protection, especially against bosses. See Galak-Z with grapple and shield setups to combine with the mech sword. Items like poisoned knives (dooms you to failure because it replaces your main weapon), and periodic explosions of range 0, have no utility, especially against faster enemies.
  • Enemies:
  • The hunter bot is a lot harder when it decides to chase your beam minibot ally. Are those allies invincible? If not, consider allow them to take no damage from lasers since they just love running along them.
  • A little too many locked items/areas per key? It seems to be a 10-to-1 ratio.
  • Blaze cannons at the end of a long room is a very bad idea combined with lots of enemies (screenshot with enemies dead - entered area with full health, but no dodging possible). They are okay in the large 2x2 and upwards.[/i]
Notes on bosses:
- Wallmaster is a bit more annoying than the other 3/4 I've played.
- There's a mini-boss in a 2x2 room that's fairly hard to beat unscathed because the playing screen doesn't give you enough time to dodge the bullet patterns. There are 3 lines of bullets (abreast)bouncing up and down on a screen. It's about 0.5~1 seconds to react to the fast ones. I think bouncing left and right would be much better, and/or spacing them out a bit.
- Several of the "avoid blue sphere firing bullets" minibosses make no sense (see 2nd and 3rd screenshots), as they can be "avoided" without any challenge.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 08:12:14 am by zharmad »

Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2016, 08:28:55 am »
Allright, I'll respond to some things here:

The elements are there, although they are not quite linking up for the fun element. Several issues have been mantis'ed and therefore not mentioned here. These points are for discussions, or that I'm assuming the polish will be added into 0.900.

Some notes on the graphics:

A couple bullet effects don't stand out enough from the environment  (e.g. a fan of green bolts from XXX). Either white or black will do (consider special attacks to be off different art scheme, like the Hunter's web.

That's probably not changing.  The issue though is the actual outside environments, which are random and can sometimes be the same color as certain bullets.  Good that you brought this one up, I have a couple of ideas for this actually, I just need to bring it up with Chris.  Had totally forgotten.

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Similarly, the art-style makes it sometimes difficult to immediately single out enemies from the environment. Enemy flying ships can remain stationary without some sort of engine trail or glow, which may hide themselves from some less-observant players when within a room full of obstacles.
[/quote]

Intended, but not by me.  Some enemies are even labeled "jumpscare" types internally.  If the player isnt paying enough attention, well.... yeah, they do pretty much what it sounds like.  If it's not moving, but freaks out suddenly when you get close, it's probably that type.   I've found though that it's easy to get used to the way they look; my first couple of times playing the game, way back when, I'd had this same issue, but at this point nothing escapes my notice. It only took me like 4 runs to get to that point.

You'd be surprised, actually, at how often this one happens in shmups or games that are similar.  It's nearly unavoidable in many cases.

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Lack of hit animations, regarding shields on the human player and damage effects. Is a polish thing.

Ooh, good catch.  I hadnt spotted this one myself. Usually concentrated on whatever I'm firing at.

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Notes on gameplay:

The hunter bot is a lot harder when it decides to chase your beam minibot ally. Are those allies invincible? If not, consider allow them to take no damage from lasers since they just love running along them.

Hm, that one's Pepisolo's design, that Hunter, I'll let him respond to that if he sees this, or you can even just drop it on Mantis.

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A little too many locked items/areas per key? It seems to be a 10-to-1 ratio.

Yyyyyup.   That's definitely an issue right now.  Annoys me.

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Blaze cannons at the end of a long room is a very bad idea combined with lots of enemies (screenshot with enemies dead - entered area with full health).


Totally intended! :D  That's literally it's entire function/purpose.

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Notes on bosses:
- Wallmaster is a bit more annoying than the other 3/4 I've played.

Best to stay close to this guy, dont fight him from range.

One big issue with this one right now though, and others, is the way boss room entry is handled.   That needs to be changed completely.  That's not something I can deal with on my own though, that's an internal thing.

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- There's a mini-boss in a 2x2 room that's fairly hard to beat unscathed because the playing screen doesn't give you enough time to dodge the bullet patterns. There are 3 lines of bullets (abreast)bouncing up and down on a screen. It's about 0.5~1 seconds to react to the fast ones. I think bouncing left and right would be much better, and/or spacing them out a bit.
- Several of the "avoid blue sphere firing bullets" minibosses make no sense (see 2nd and 3rd screenshots), as they can be "avoided" without any challenge.

Those are challenge rooms; not my own doing or Pepisolo's, I believe those are Dayton's job?  I've had the very same issues with them.  The sphere ones are also capable of creating undodgable attacks.  The problem actually is the very same problem that leads to most of my bosses being totally stationary:  There's no way to create scripted movement in the game.  All movement, with one exception, is controlled by pre-set AI.  The AI is pretty random, and aside from pathfinding, doesnt know what to do.  With bullet patterns in a shmup situation, this is usually a big no-no.  Well, with patterns that are complicated enough, that is.  For small enemies that tend to be simple in areas with alot of cover, it's fine.  But for something like a boss?  Rarely is this okay.  Particularly if it's something made by me. 

The one exception is the Warden's final pattern.  I did something unique with that one as I found a way to PARTLY control movement... but it's wonky and strange, so I havent applied it anywhere else.

But yeah, typically in ANYTHING that is shmup like, enemy and boss movements are *completely* scripted, with nothing left to chance, because otherwise, you get a high chance of an undodgable pattern being generated... which as far as I'm concerned is the cardinal sin of this type of game.

But yeah, put that one into Mantis.  I intend on mentioning it to Chris, but I may forget.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2016, 11:43:14 am »
Quote
Quote
Blaze cannons at the end of a long room is a very bad idea combined with lots of enemies (screenshot with enemies dead - entered area with full health).
Totally intended! :D  That's literally it's entire function/purpose.

On the other hand, the cannon being grouped with other snipers is making it very difficult to design sniper-based rooms since their firing patterns behave completely differently. Where I would wish to challenge players to clear a number of sniper nests, the appearance of a cannon can make it impossible.

How should this be fixed? The main problem is that blaze cannons are on a different tier, fast-firing slow bullets, shot-piercing through everything except destructibles while the other sniper turrets are slow-firing very fast bullets, and very weak (1~3 is no challenge).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:49:33 am by zharmad »

Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 12:10:35 pm »
Quote
Quote
Blaze cannons at the end of a long room is a very bad idea combined with lots of enemies (screenshot with enemies dead - entered area with full health).
Totally intended! :D  That's literally it's entire function/purpose.

On the other hand, the cannon being grouped with other snipers is making it very difficult to design sniper-based rooms since their firing patterns behave completely differently. Where I would wish to challenge players to clear a number of sniper nests, the appearance of a cannon can make it impossible.

How should this be fixed? The main problem is that blaze cannons are on a different tier, fast-firing slow bullets, shot-piercing through everything except destructibles while the other sniper turrets are slow-firing very fast bullets, and very weak (1~3 is no challenge).

One problem is that there's only one sniper category, sniper_1x1.   There needs to be at least a 3x3 as well for tougher units.

Those small slow ones arent really meant to be tough.  They'll likely be appearing on the first two floors only.  To some degree though it also depends on their placement, as to how difficult they are or not.

....also the blasted blaze turrets are actually supposed to fire through destructibles as well.  I coulda sworn I fixed that.  For like the 5th time.

Other problem though is that we really also need more sniper-category enemies.  It's hard to come up with that sort though, since typically snipers always have a super direct shot.  Hard to make more designs while actually keeping that interesting.

I typed that and had an idea for one about 1 second afterwards.  Funny how that works.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 12:18:50 pm »
The problem actually is the very same problem that leads to most of my bosses being totally stationary:  There's no way to create scripted movement in the game.
I wish I'd known before that was such an impediment :) We already use bullet_pattern's to control enemy movement in certain edge cases (death spiral, though I'm not sure that's still used), and there's no particular reason it can't be done here. I'm hoping to put that in on Monday (Pepisolo requested something which was best answered by it), though I guess that doesn't give you much time to work with it.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 01:34:56 pm »
The problem actually is the very same problem that leads to most of my bosses being totally stationary:  There's no way to create scripted movement in the game.
I wish I'd known before that was such an impediment :) We already use bullet_pattern's to control enemy movement in certain edge cases (death spiral, though I'm not sure that's still used), and there's no particular reason it can't be done here. I'm hoping to put that in on Monday (Pepisolo requested something which was best answered by it), though I guess that doesn't give you much time to work with it.

Well, I'd used the bullet pattern control thing on the Warden, but it really was the only case where it fit much.  That one's as close to a predictable and controlled movement as I could get, but it only works because of the specific nature of that one pattern (the last one it does).  For basically all others, it doesnt work and would still create undodgeable situations.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 02:04:02 pm »
On sniper-types, I'd suggest:

- a fragmentation grenade, if it is possible to land a bullet near the player and have it spawn more bullets like your 7x7 Sideshot. Failing that, it could launch "unguided rockets", and just have the bullet explode when it hits something.

- Can the bullets be semi-guided (not as extreme as the Persistence bullets) or curved?

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 02:09:02 pm »
Quote
The hunter bot is a lot harder when it decides to chase your beam minibot ally. Are those allies invincible? If not, consider allow them to take no damage from lasers since they just love running along them.

I think The Hunter is a little bit too hard at the moment, I'll tone him down a bit. Thanks for the feedback.

Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 02:13:06 pm »
On sniper-types, I'd suggest:

- a fragmentation grenade, if it is possible to land a bullet near the player and have it spawn more bullets like your 7x7 Sideshot. Failing that, it could launch "unguided rockets", and just have the bullet explode when it hits something.

- Can the bullets be semi-guided (not as extreme as the Persistence bullets) or curved?

Fragmenting-upon-death bullets work, but they're either based only on distance (not so useful for a sniper design), or hitting a wall (already have the one that does that).  Or they'd have to be the sort that just keep doing it, but I"ve been trying to avoid that type of design for snipers since lots of normal enemies already do that.

Curved bullets are doable but utterly useless in normal rooms, without bouncing.  That's why only bosses use them for the most part.  And even then, not much; it's best to use that type of shot sparingly in a game like this.  They're also really quirky to set up.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 02:53:56 pm »
What about 'spray and pray' types that just does 20 bullets once every 10 seconds? Or bullets that return direct to sender after bouncing?

Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 03:02:26 pm »
What about 'spray and pray' types that just does 20 bullets once every 10 seconds? Or bullets that return direct to sender after bouncing?

Yeah, either are doable.

One thing that'd help though with some of these is rooms that are designed for them specifically; right now there really arent many of those. 

Either way, I'll see about having some new ones done later today/tomorrow.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 03:16:31 pm »
has anybody else been noticing a weird bug that stops you firing your weapons in mini boss rooms? I've encountered this twice(the 1st being with the mini boss that fires bullets out in a circle pattern continually and the second that fires constantly upwards while going left and right) its pretty annoying since I have to restart when ever this happens. ps already filed this to mantis was just curious really.
c.r

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 04:19:54 pm »
Okay, that's not a bug and those specific rooms needs more explanation. You wait about 20~30 seconds and then the mini-boss will destroy themselves.

Offline Misery

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2016, 04:22:09 pm »
has anybody else been noticing a weird bug that stops you firing your weapons in mini boss rooms? I've encountered this twice(the 1st being with the mini boss that fires bullets out in a circle pattern continually and the second that fires constantly upwards while going left and right) its pretty annoying since I have to restart when ever this happens. ps already filed this to mantis was just curious really.

It's a condemned room.  They're meant to be about purely dodging, and are what replaces the original idea for the challenged room.  There's a few problems with them right now but as zharmad says, the lack of being able to fire is not a bug.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Impressions after 2 hours
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 06:37:37 pm »
Well, I'd used the bullet pattern control thing on the Warden, but it really was the only case where it fit much.  That one's as close to a predictable and controlled movement as I could get, but it only works because of the specific nature of that one pattern (the last one it does).  For basically all others, it doesnt work and would still create undodgeable situations.
Is that a death spiral pattern or something else?

What would it need to allow for precise movement?
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