Author Topic: Energy system has been removed?  (Read 618 times)

Offline Pumpkin

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Energy system has been removed?
« on: November 20, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »
Quote from: Patchnotes for Version 0.136
* The energy drops have been removed from the game, and energy pickups in general. Energy pickups that were in the map editor are now "random minor items" that might be missiles, health, or more likely a small number of credits.
If I understand it well, there is no more 9V batteries and items no more consume energy. Far be it from me to question argue over this decision. However I'd like to question interrogate this decision.

Which were the design perspectives that leaded to the removal of this mechanism of play?
Why?

I'm asking that because I'm interested in game design and I would like to understand better the deep reasons and motivations of the decisions that shapes a game.
Just being curious.

I thank you in advance for the time and effort you may put in detailing these reasons; I know your time is precious in this busy period of alpha-test.
Thanks.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
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Offline ptarth

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2015, 11:27:17 AM »
My guess is that special weapons will be converted to a per weapon ammo system, which effectively is energy, just without the same units. But then again is a guess.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 11:39:50 AM by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Misery

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2015, 11:31:50 AM »
Well I'm confused already.

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2015, 11:39:02 AM »
I'm not done yet with those changes in the changelog. ;)

The overall design on there should be a lot clearer once that's in place.

TLDR:
1. Ammo weapons are annoying in that you tend to hoard ammo and not use the weapon.  Even if the weapon is good, it "feels bad" partly because you can hardly use it.
2. Automatically regenerating ammo is what we've chosen to go with instead of finite ammo.
3. This basically just makes it a cooldown timer, BUT with some nuances that make it more interesting than just a simple cooldown timer.
4. In order to make this make sense in the larger scheme of things (why use both your main gun and your more-powerful secondary?), we've come up with a very simple combo system that rewards using both as well as constantly laying damage from your main weapon onto enemies even if it's not very much while you're prepping for your next secondary blast.
5. The goals here are to keep people using both weapons for fun and profit, and to not have "dead times" where the player has nothing to shoot with that is interesting.
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 11:53:41 AM »
That sounds great.  I was not really using secondary weapons at all for exactly the reason you mention.  Which is a shame because I thought a number of them were pretty cool ideas.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 11:55:02 AM »
TLDR:
The point of a TL;DR isn't to announce a summary before (or after) a longer explanation? Where's the longer explanation??
( :P )

I'm kidding. Thanks a lot for taking the time to highlight us on the future of this mechanism.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 11:59:03 AM »
I actualldy didn't had problems with the Enegerysystem. If I wanted to change soemthing, then that energy regenerates between rooms. Not full but a little.
I also want to suggest that you can carry multiple weapons and switch between them (maybe 3?).

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2015, 12:09:30 PM »
Overall trying to keep things moving fast, and no item juggling.  The ability to have multiple weapons is something we talked about, but discarded.  To some extent, familiars will let you do that sort of thing later on.  There's a LOT of stuff not implemented yet that rounds out some of the things that you guys are probably looking for with an item system.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2015, 01:45:12 PM »
That sounds great.  I was not really using secondary weapons at all for exactly the reason you mention.  Which is a shame because I thought a number of them were pretty cool ideas.

I'll just chime in and say that this has been exactly my experience too.  That whole idea of "Wait, I shouldnt use this here.... what if I REALLY need it later on?" which isnt fun.   Not to mention it kinda goes against the "roguelike" aspect of the game anyway.... most roguelikes of all sorts go out of their way to get you to USE stuff once you have it.  Getting and using awesome items is half the fun after all. 

So this sounds like a great change to me.

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2015, 01:48:55 PM »
Sweet. :)

Which is a shame because I thought a number of them were pretty cool ideas.

To be clear, you'll actually still have those, and be able to use them -- they aren't going away.  They're just getting a different way of being used.  You'll use them MORE, and in combo with your main guns.  Which, before too long, upgrades to your main gun will also be in.  There are about five categories (well, sub-categories) of items not even with a single entry in the game yet, though their design is done on paper (and sometimes in code, but not scriot).
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 02:35:06 PM »
upgrades to your main gun

This is what I'm looking forward to the most.

There is a long tradition of losing upgrades as you accumulate damage.  Is that the model SR with adopt, or are upgrades permanent for the run?  What about across runs?

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 02:56:27 PM »
Nothing is permanent across runs except unlocked items/enemies that can then seed in item pools.  So for instance, X item doesn't show up until you achieve Y objective in a run, but then it starts showing up in other circumstances earlier, etc.  Same with enemies.

In terms of you losing stuff when you take damage, that's not particularly the plan at the moment, although there might be some sort of item that plays with that concept, who knows.  Overall this is a lot more like Isaac where you're collecting things constantly as you go through the run, and you either make it or don't.  The big choice you have is which things to take at any given point, though.  There's a lot more in terms of choice of weapons and whatnot to take with you, and Dayton and I have discussed having an MMO-like quality system on them as well to help broaden the choices you're likely to make with them.  Not positive if we'll do that right now, though.

There are a number of games that we take inspiration from, both positively and negatively (what we like about them and what we want to avoid that they did).  The progression through runs is something that Isaac does well, although it can be sparse at times.  Rogue Legacy handles the meta aspect well, but the during-run progression is really dull.  Traditional SHMUPs really use a system of very temporarily holding an upgrade, etc.

Oh!  I forgot.  One sub-category of items that we have planned (and the code is already there for) are ones that have "probations" on them.  Basically those are things that you can't do if you want to keep the item, and you lose the item if you do the thinig.  One might be firing a missile, or taking damage, or whatever.  In some cases a probation is a temporary thing, lasting only until the next floor.  So basically "this weapon is yours for good if you manage to go the rest of the floor without taking damage."  So yeah, there's a variety of stuff that actually does fit that model.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2015, 02:58:21 PM »
Oh!  I forgot.  One sub-category of items that we have planned (and the code is already there for) are ones that have "probations" on them.  Basically those are things that you can't do if you want to keep the item, and you lose the item if you do the thinig.  One might be firing a missile, or taking damage, or whatever.  In some cases a probation is a temporary thing, lasting only until the next floor.  So basically "this weapon is yours for good if you manage to go the rest of the floor without taking damage."  So yeah, there's a variety of stuff that actually does fit that model.

This sounds hilarious and awesome.

I voice my approval.

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2015, 02:59:24 PM »
I knew you would like that one. :D
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Energy system has been removed?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2015, 06:40:04 AM »
Oh!  I forgot.  One sub-category of items that we have planned (and the code is already there for) are ones that have "probations" on them.  Basically those are things that you can't do if you want to keep the item, and you lose the item if you do the thinig.  One might be firing a missile, or taking damage, or whatever.  In some cases a probation is a temporary thing, lasting only until the next floor.  So basically "this weapon is yours for good if you manage to go the rest of the floor without taking damage."  So yeah, there's a variety of stuff that actually does fit that model.
Ow! Nethack-like conducts with actual impact on gameplay? That's a neat idea!
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!