Author Topic: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).  (Read 24417 times)

Offline Diji

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False edit: I realised while writing this post that my ideas mostly don't apply here, except maybe for a subset of the market items (namely consumer products). That said, it feels like a waste to just delete it... Maybe someone will find it interesting?

Quote from: my brain
I noticed the spreadsheet that has personality and goals for each of the races. With regards to generating names appropriate to the producing race, are you going to have a pool of words for each race and manually make sure the words included are fitting for the race, or are you going to use those racial traits like tags to determine what an item's name can be if X race produces Y item?

Like this (Heads up, just letting some stuff spill out of my head, it'll probably come out as disorganised nonsense):
{nouns}
Subjugation
Wealth
Fierce
Friendly
Peace
Technology
... and likewise for adjectives. I'm no linguist so I'm probably overlooking some crucial distinctions you'd need to have, though ultimately it depends on the needs of the name generator.
I'm not sure if you'd need to distinguish what a word can be used in (like if you don't want poems about technology to be possible, or something).

Uhhh... Upon looking over the name formats in the OP and the spreadsheet again, I might have come up with a needlessly complex method. I mean, is there really a need to have descriptive words in market item names? Not really sure why I started thinking along those lines. IRL names of things - at least media - aren't really descriptive (50 Shades of Grey doesn't sound erotic to me, anyway).

So the procedural part of name generation should probably be focused on the structure of names rather than the words used for them, like ptarth was talking about earlier in the thread. That is, items seem to already be seperated into categories so there's no need to have a list of "serious" words and "peaceful" words, since they'd probably only be used for philosophy items and maybe non fiction items, and they already have categories that will do the same job as my idea but in a simpler (easier) fashion.

Offline Teal_Blue

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I would really like to help here, and i am sure it will all make sense to me once i am in the game and can see it. But to be honest i am feeling rather stupid here, because i am not making any sense of this, how this parse thing works and what it is supposed to produce.

I mean don't get me wrong, i can try to make up a syntax for any of the  alien races, if i knew what you wanted, as an example, say the Burlusts all use guttural consonants for their language, that they always open with "Qua Dem La-er" which is a reference for their Deity, which is how they open all their dialogs with each other. In addition they are all self-centric and in some ways like the "Klingons" in that they continually challenge one another. This is of course just some ideas, but to be honest it is probably not anything like what you would prefer, so i am not quite sure what i am making here, or suppose to make.

Anyway, perhaps i can do something else down along the way where i can contribute and feel i am adding something worthwhile, instead of coming up with things that are really reserved for you to decide.

Anyway, thanks for listening, take care,
-Teal



Offline ptarth

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  • I'm probably joking.
  • I've been busy the past few weeks so I haven't been able to do much.
  • Chris just added a ton of things to the sheet. If you haven't checked in a while, you might see what he has done and see if that helps your understanding.
  • Teal_Blue - I think Chris is still wanting to develop individual naming systems for the non-tLF races, using a similar approach to the previous described tLF system (I posted the rules a while back). If you (or someone else) wanted to create 10 or so prototype structures, and then generate some examples, that might be useful. He sent me this link: http://www.rinkworks.com/namegen/ a while back, but I haven't had a chance to come up with anything good.


I can related to Teal_Blue's problem. The individual and place name systems have intimidated me because I don't know enough about the races. For example, are the Burlusts more like Mongolians, Japanese, or Klingons? Depending on that, it changes a lot. So I went with the brilliant strategy of working on other things.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Captain Jack

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Oh holy smokes, that's a much better baseline. I think I can contribute more with all of this as a base.

One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.

Offline x4000

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Okay!  Sorry for being away for so long, it's been nuts.  I finally have actually coded this into the game, and did a ton of updating today.  I see that you guys have already been busy since my work, too, heh.  I've updated the original post of this topic, but I'll repost that here just to have it:

Any questions on it, please feel free!  Or if you have questions about the races, too.

----------------

Hey guys!

So... this is a pretty huge favor to ask, sorry about this.  But if any of you have any time you'd be willing to donate, I'd be much appreciated.  And the market in the game will be that much cooler for it.

Background
The tech tree in this game is a hand-designed affair, and is ONLY used by the player races.  Your race is so far behind everyone else that nobody else needs what you're working on.

BUT!  There's a whole other section of the game called the Market, and it works kind of like a procedurally-generated tech tree.  It's more randomized than that, but you can affect the outcome of what you're "unlocking" in various ways.  And you can then trade those things away even if you don't find them really useful for yourself.  And you can trade for things that other races invent as time goes on.

In order to really make this shine, that involves having each market item come up with a cool procedurally-generated name.  I have the framework for that in place, and as of the 4/9 update it's going pretty swimmingly (thanks in huge part to your help).

The Krolin wrote a hilariously-titled piece of Dark Philosphophy entitled: "Why Do The Fatally Crabby Die?"  Seeing that show up in my inventory just made me laugh out loud.  And there were a bunch of other good ones, too.  What a difference this makes to the feel of the market!

The Task
Okay!  After much work by many talented people, we have arrived at the (current as of now) attached spreadsheet.  The actual online spreadsheet has already evolved well beyond this, naturally, even as I write this. ;)  Here's how this works:

1. There are a variety of categories of market item types, and it looks for a column with the header matching that exact name.  The types are:
    Broadcast_Comedy
    Broadcast_Sports
    Broadcast_News
    Broadcast_Education
    Broadcast_Violent
    Broadcast_Romance
    ConsumerProduct_Hygiene
    ConsumerProduct_Clothing
    ConsumerProduct_DangerousToys
    ConsumerProduct_Technological
    ConsumerProduct_Gadgets
    Military_Components
    Military_PersonalWeapons
    Military_VehicleWeapons
    Military_PersonalArmor
    Military_VehicleArmor
    Military_PersonalBioAugments
    Military_RangedWeaponAugments
    Military_BannedWeapons
    Philosophy_Serious
    Philosophy_Dark
    Philosophy_Trivial
    Philosophy_Social
    Fiction_Uplifting
    Fiction_Tragic
    Fiction_Propaganda
    NonFiction_TortureResults
    NonFiction_MilitaryTactics
    NonFiction_Politics
    NonFiction_Science
    NonFiction_Biology
    NonFiction_Technology
    Periodical_News
    Periodical_Research
    Periodical_Propaganda
    Periodical_Entertainment
    Poetry_Humor
    Poetry_Crude
    Poetry_Uplifting
    Poetry_Romantic
    Poetry_EpicHeroism
    Poetry_Angsty

2. Once it has found the appropriate column for the type of "item" being generated, it then pulls a random row from that column.

3. It then looks into that column and finds any tags (anything that starts with { and ends with } is a tag), and does a couple of things with them.

a. Special tag: {n} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 20.  I'd advise staying away from numbers and mark levels and such too much, though, because if you put that in there players will assume it has meaning when it does not.  If you want to say "A Collection of {n} Poems," that's a good use for this tag.

b. Special tag: {Adjective} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansAdjectives column, for the Andors it's the AndorsAdjectives column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

c. Special tag: {Place} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansPlaceTypes column, for the Andors it's the AndorsPlaceTypes column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

d. All other tags are considered custom, and will look for a column in the spreadsheet with that same name.  So if you want to have a tag named {HiThereBob}, you would need a column with the header HiThereBob as well.  These are case-sensitive, so your capitalization matters.

5. The generator runs through this recursively until there are no more tags.  So if there are tags within tags, that is okay.  Also, if you have multiple copies of {n} or {GenericAdverb} or whatever in one name, it will pick a unique name for each instance of that tag.

Important rules of thumb:
I. If you wouldn't mind having everything in proper capitalization, that would be awesome.  It's super easy to do by just going here: http://www.textfixer.com/tools/capitalize-sentences.php  Choose "Capitalize Every Word" and paste in your entries, and bam.

II. The inventor race is something I'd prefer be apparent.  So pretty much everything should use {Adjective} or {Place} in there somewhere.  If we wind up needing to make other race-specific categories, then fine.  And I guess there can be exceptions to this.  But it's pretty nice when the race makes their own mark on things.

III. As mentioned before, the capitalization of the tags matters.  The tag name and capitalization must exactly match the header of the column to pull from.  Just re-emphasizing that. ;)

IV. Overall not having names that are ridiculously super-long is a good thing, as is not having things that seem to indicate a specific function when really the name has nothing to do with the function.  Aka "Amulet of Power Reduction" would be incredibly misleading since it might have nothing to do with power reduction.

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.

-- Most importantly, here's the actual sheet where data is to be entered at this point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ngsCKxrQUVM5JRxN5eN-ZnSbWaPvw9G5BKcbFARhVRk/edit#gid=0

Thank you very much for any help!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 02:04:09 pm by x4000 »
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Offline x4000

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One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.

This is a really good point.  I was getting some things like "Peaceful military rangefinders" from the Skylaxians, haha.
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Offline Captain Jack

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One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.

This is a really good point.  I was getting some things like "Peaceful military rangefinders" from the Skylaxians, haha.
Actually it was the Peltians who were bugging me most. "Insignificant"? "Primitive"? Marketing 101: sell your product up, not down.

Offline x4000

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I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!

In other news, I had it generate 100 random item names for each of the categories for each of the races.  So... 58,800 lines in all.  Note that in a real game it would filter out duplicates, but I did not bother here.  Note also that not every race will use every type of poetry or whatever, either, but I also didn't filter that out here.  I figured it was an interesting export, at least. :)
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Offline x4000

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Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
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Offline Captain Jack

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I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!
Sure, internally I can see that. But there's also international appeal to consider, and I have a hard time seeing any government (or player!) bringing "Primitive Televisions" to their market. But seriously, if you like them I'll leave them in.


Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
I'm guessing that's me. I'll be filling those in momentarily, just trying to knock out the worst offending adjectives before I go off to work.

EDIT: Oh man, just took a look at the market item list. Right off the bat, the Acutian "Sweatshop Comedy Hour" actually made me spittake. These guys are going to steal the show like they did in TLF, I can already tell.

EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 02:34:16 pm by Watashiwa »

Offline Pumpkin

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Quote
Burlust Broadcast_Comedy:        Fatal Comedy Hour
I know there would be a dangerous amount of !!fun!! in Burlust humour. Not browsed everything, however. Good job, guyz!
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline ptarth

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I was working with numbers some and had a request.

Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal
  • {n} <- random digit 1:9
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9
  • {XN} <- random digit 0:X

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal
  • {XYN} <- random digit X:Y
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9

Also, when it comes to the list, I've been the evil person adding the blank lines. I've been doing so to separate items that I think are good from those that are experimental or I consider poor. This way I don't wipe out someone else's work where my ideas go awry. I'd suggest that we all adhere to this, and that way we don't have to go back to revisions to find things that might have been lost. For the final draft we can cut it all, but this way we have backups and ways to have diverging ideas without multiple files.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline x4000

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I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!
Sure, internally I can see that. But there's also international appeal to consider, and I have a hard time seeing any government (or player!) bringing "Primitive Televisions" to their market. But seriously, if you like them I'll leave them in.

I'm flexible either way.


Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
I'm guessing that's me. I'll be filling those in momentarily, just trying to knock out the worst offending adjectives before I go off to work.

Oh, it wasn't just you.  There have been holes off and on throughout this as people edit, so I just figured I'd mention it.

EDIT: Oh man, just took a look at the market item list. Right off the bat, the Acutian "Sweatshop Comedy Hour" actually made me spittake. These guys are going to steal the show like they did in TLF, I can already tell.

Haha, that is absolutely hilarious!  Man, it's a shame they don't actually export comedy.  That would be priceless. :D

EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.

I don't have any objection to splitting lists however we need to; my only concern is for the maintainability of stuff.  These are for both imports and exports, so right now the naming conventions are the same either way.  I kind of like the simplicity of that, honestly.  I dunno.

I was working with numbers some and had a request.

Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal
  • {n} <- random digit 1:9
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9
  • {XN} <- random digit 0:X

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal
  • {XYN} <- random digit X:Y
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9

Is there really a cause for that?  I have a lot of stuff on my list to do, and adding to parsing like that seems kind of counter to things being random.  I'm cool with adding other things like {n} and {N} and such to denote different ranges if need be, because that's a quick addition.  But adding semantics and ranges and sub-parsing into those items would be more work for sure.

Also, when it comes to the list, I've been the evil person adding the blank lines. I've been doing so to separate items that I think are good from those that are experimental or I consider poor. This way I don't wipe out someone else's work where my ideas go awry. I'd suggest that we all adhere to this, and that way we don't have to go back to revisions to find things that might have been lost. For the final draft we can cut it all, but this way we have backups and ways to have diverging ideas without multiple files.

Aha!  Okay, that mystery is solved. ;)  Yep, that's not a problem.  For things that are super experimental we might want to move those to another tab, potentially.  But yep.
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Offline Captain Jack

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EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.

I don't have any objection to splitting lists however we need to; my only concern is for the maintainability of stuff.  These are for both imports and exports, so right now the naming conventions are the same either way.  I kind of like the simplicity of that, honestly.  I dunno.
Actually there's a simple way of handling this: give most of the size descriptors to the Spire, who always build on massive scales, and have most Zenith market items described with technological adjectives.

Offline x4000

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Totally cool with that, yeah.  The other big descriptor of the zenith stuff would be "old" or "philosophical" or "wise."  Though philosophical and wise both also apply to the Yali and somewhat Evucks.
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