Arcen Games

General Category => Stars Beyond Reach... This World Is Mine => : x4000 January 30, 2015, 09:50:07 AM

: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
Hey guys!

So... this is a pretty huge favor to ask, sorry about this.  But if any of you have any time you'd be willing to donate, I'd be much appreciated.  And the market in the game will be that much cooler for it.

Background
The tech tree in this game is a hand-designed affair, and is ONLY used by the player races.  Your race is so far behind everyone else that nobody else needs what you're working on.

BUT!  There's a whole other section of the game called the Market, and it works kind of like a procedurally-generated tech tree.  It's more randomized than that, but you can affect the outcome of what you're "unlocking" in various ways.  And you can then trade those things away even if you don't find them really useful for yourself.  And you can trade for things that other races invent as time goes on.

In order to really make this shine, that involves having each market item come up with a cool procedurally-generated name.  I have the framework for that in place, and as of the 4/9 update it's going pretty swimmingly (thanks in huge part to your help).

The Krolin wrote a hilariously-titled piece of Dark Philosphophy entitled: "Why Do The Fatally Crabby Die?"  Seeing that show up in my inventory just made me laugh out loud.  And there were a bunch of other good ones, too.  What a difference this makes to the feel of the market!

The Task
Okay!  After much work by many talented people, we have arrived at the (current as of now) attached spreadsheet.  The actual online spreadsheet has already evolved well beyond this, naturally, even as I write this. ;)  Here's how this works:

1. There are a variety of categories of market item types, and it looks for a column with the header matching that exact name.  The types are:
    Broadcast_Comedy
    Broadcast_Sports
    Broadcast_News
    Broadcast_Education
    Broadcast_Violent
    Broadcast_Romance
    ConsumerProduct_Hygiene
    ConsumerProduct_Clothing
    ConsumerProduct_DangerousToys
    ConsumerProduct_Technological
    ConsumerProduct_Gadgets
    Military_Components
    Military_PersonalWeapons
    Military_VehicleWeapons
    Military_PersonalArmor
    Military_VehicleArmor
    Military_PersonalBioAugments
    Military_RangedWeaponAugments
    Military_BannedWeapons
    Philosophy_Serious
    Philosophy_Dark
    Philosophy_Trivial
    Philosophy_Social
    Fiction_Uplifting
    Fiction_Tragic
    Fiction_Propaganda
    NonFiction_TortureResults
    NonFiction_MilitaryTactics
    NonFiction_Politics
    NonFiction_Science
    NonFiction_Biology
    NonFiction_Technology
    Periodical_News
    Periodical_Research
    Periodical_Propaganda
    Periodical_Entertainment
    Poetry_Humor
    Poetry_Crude
    Poetry_Uplifting
    Poetry_Romantic
    Poetry_EpicHeroism
    Poetry_Angsty

2. Once it has found the appropriate column for the type of "item" being generated, it then pulls a random row from that column.

3. It then looks into that column and finds any tags (anything that starts with { and ends with } is a tag), and does a couple of things with them.

a. Special tag: {n} -- in this case, it places a number between 0 and 9.  I'd advise staying away from numbers and mark levels and such too much, though, because if you put that in there players will assume it has meaning when it does not.  If you want to say "A Collection of {n} Poems," that's a good use for this tag.

aa. Special tag: {n1} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 9.  Same notes as above.  Note that you can chain these together to make interesting longer numbers.

ab. Special tag: {nn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 99.  A bit more flexibility.

ac. Special tag: {nnn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 999.  A bit more flexibility.

ad. Special tag: {nnnn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 9999.  Yet more flexibility.

b. Special tag: {RacialAdjective} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansAdjectives column, for the Andors it's the AndorsAdjectives column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

c. Special tag: {RacialPlace} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansPlaceTypes column, for the Andors it's the AndorsPlaceTypes column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

d. Special tag: {OurRacePlural} -- This is the name of the race that made it.  So if it's an acutian thing, this will always say "Acutians".  If it's peltian, then it will say "Peltians" and so on.

e. Special tag: {OurRaceSingular} -- Same deal as above, except that this is singular.  So if it's an acutian thing, it says "Acutian".

f. Special tag: {OurRandomRaceLeader} -- Each race has three possible leaders, of which only one is in the game at a given time.  However, each is a good source of racial names, right?  So this picks one of the three at random.

g. Special tag: {OtherRacePlural} -- This is the name of any other race EXCEPT the race that made it.  And it's the plural version, as you might guess.  Note that multiple calls to "OtherRace<Whatever>" in an item name will NOT return the same race each time.  It may or may not.  Best bet is to only use one of the "OtherRace<Whatever>" tags in a given name.

h. Special tag: {OtherRaceSingular} -- Same deal as above, except that this is singular.  Once again, any race EXCEPT ours.  And no consistency.

i. Special tag: {OtherRandomRaceLeader} -- Each race has three possible leaders, of which only one is in the game at a given time.  This picks the name of any leader that is NOT from our race.  Again no consistency.

j. All other tags are considered custom, and will look for a column in the spreadsheet with that same name.  So if you want to have a tag named {HiThereBob}, you would need a column with the header HiThereBob as well.  These are case-sensitive, so your capitalization matters.

5. The generator runs through this recursively until there are no more tags.  So if there are tags within tags, that is okay.  Also, if you have multiple copies of {n} or {GenericAdverb} or whatever in one name, it will pick a unique name for each instance of that tag.

Important rules of thumb:
I. If you wouldn't mind having everything in proper capitalization, that would be awesome.  It's super easy to do by just going here: http://www.textfixer.com/tools/capitalize-sentences.php  Choose "Capitalize Every Word" and paste in your entries, and bam.

II. The inventor race is something I'd prefer be apparent.  So pretty much everything should use {Adjective} or {Place} in there somewhere.  If we wind up needing to make other race-specific categories, then fine.  And I guess there can be exceptions to this.  But it's pretty nice when the race makes their own mark on things.

III. As mentioned before, the capitalization of the tags matters.  The tag name and capitalization must exactly match the header of the column to pull from.  Just re-emphasizing that. ;)

IV. Overall not having names that are ridiculously super-long is a good thing, as is not having things that seem to indicate a specific function when really the name has nothing to do with the function.  Aka "Amulet of Power Reduction" would be incredibly misleading since it might have nothing to do with power reduction.

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.

-- Most importantly, here's the actual sheet where data is to be entered at this point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ngsCKxrQUVM5JRxN5eN-ZnSbWaPvw9G5BKcbFARhVRk/edit#gid=0

Thank you very much for any help!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Fabulous January 30, 2015, 09:56:34 AM
I'm not a very creative fellow, so I'm not sure I can help much. But you could add "{0} Biography" on non-fiction and I guess that would be nice.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 10:04:45 AM
Done, thanks!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: topper January 30, 2015, 11:09:39 AM
BUT!  There's a whole other section of the game called the Market, and it works kind of like a procedurally-generated tech tree.  It's more randomized than that, but you can affect the outcome of what you're "unlocking" in various ways.  And you can then trade those things away even if you don't find them really useful for yourself.  And you can trade for things that other races invent as time goes on.
--snip--
In order to really make this shine, that involves having each market item come up with a cool procedurally-generated name.  I have the framework for that in place, but coming up with content for those is... quite a tough thing.
I love the idea of procedural item (and item descriptions?). It works really well in DF at least, which I know you guys are familiar with.

But one thing that can be a turnoff to enjoyment is if there are so many different names that they lose meaning and understanding. For example, what is the significance of "The Brinkley Review" vs "The Brooke Review" vs "The Brooke Session"? Brinkley vs Brooke is nice variation. Review vs Session makes me need to read a tooltip to know if there is an actual difference.  Meaning: Having lots of names like in the google doc is good, but reducing the number of structures like what you have shown above would be clearer to me gameplay-wise. e.g. only 2 types of broadcast name structures but lots of modifiers and/or adjectives. For example:   The {adjective} {name} broadcast on {noun} structure for all broadcasts.

For an example from DF wiki:
Stukos Cilobazin, Miner has created Govoskatdir Neth Tilesh, a bituminous coal millstone.
This tells exactly what the object is and what it is made of as well as having the interesting procedural name.

Or another example that would be for something art-related:
Tabaralen, "The Faithful Moth" This is a giant cave spider chitin shield. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. Is is decorated with turtle shell and goblin bone. This object menaces with spikes of giant cave spider chitin, Native gold and Tower-cap. On the item is an image of two shields in Phyllite. On the item is an image of Tirist Leaderhammer the dwarf and dwarves in turtle shell. Tirist Leaderhammer is surrounded by the dwarves. The artwork relates to the ascension of the dwarf Tirist Leaderhammer to leadership of The Boats of Swallowing in 98. On the item is an image of Mosus Autumnstockade the dwarf in Phyllite
This has the interesting procedural information while still indicating what the thing is in the first couple words.

You know you want menacing spikes on things  :P

1. I have sccuddly hugd a variety of data that I'm using right now, but there's a lot of junk that got sccuddly hugd in there as well.  As well as uninteresting things that will seem just very odd when made into market items.  So those need to be taken out of the lists.
The forum text mods are a gift that keeps on giving.  :)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 11:21:47 AM
The forum text mods are just too fun to even try to fix, though. ;)

It's a good point on the procedural names, but at the moment there are 54 different possible effects that each item has, and each item has two effects.  With a numeric quality that is split between them anywhere from 90/10 to 50/50.

I don't think that the names of the items can really reflect what the items do, and right now there's no connection whatsoever.  Most likely that will have to be done with little icons.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt January 30, 2015, 11:34:28 AM
I'm not sure the philosophy list in its current form will fit with the formats, partly because most of the entries on the list are names while a lot of the formats seem to be better suited for theories - "The Bentham System" doesn't sound quite right, unlike "The Utilitarian System". Maybe if you want them to be about philosophers it should go {0}'s Conviction, The Stance of {0}.

An actual problem with the list is that all the entries are one word only, so names are being split up - e.g. Hannah and Arendt each having their own place. As far as that goes you could just have all the first names deleted. There are also some titles like Ibn or Tzu that should be attached to names, and which can't be missed out from names (having said that, I'm kind of assuming levels of accuracy which shouldn't be expected with the timescale).

If you do want name based philosophy the entries could always come from the General Writing doc, in which case the philosophy doc could be emptied into there.

I think the main difference in flavour is that name centred works sound like the author is concerned with teaching someone else's ideas, so the focus is on the past (which might work well with the theme of re-discovering the human past), while concept centred works sound like they're writing about their own ideas, with a focus on the present.

Format Suggestions:

The Classic of {0}
The Way of {0}
Understanding {0}
The Wisdom of {0}
The Poverty of {0}
A Critique of {0}
On {0}
An Introduction to {0}
Being and {0}
{0}

Those hopefully all work for either names or concepts.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 11:53:46 AM
Cool, I really like those formats!  I've updated it.

And yes, I'd be quite happy to have concepts instead of names.  Or a mix of both.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: TheVampire100 January 30, 2015, 01:12:06 PM
For the periodically writings, how about "The {0} Times"?
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 01:16:40 PM
Nice!  Added, thanks.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt January 30, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
Does the philosophical document have to be made up from one word entries, or can I put in full names and multi-word concepts?

Glad you like the formats, here's more!

Against {0}
Anti-{0}
{0} and {0}        ({0} and {1}?)
The {0} of {0}    (The {0} of {1}?)
{0}'s {0}            ({0}'s {1}?)
In Defence of {0}
In Praise of {0}
The Essence of {0}
{0} Through History
{0}, the Basic Works
The Foundations of {0}
Notes on {0}
The Origins of {0}
Thinking Through {0}
An Enquiry Concerning {0}
A Treatise on {0}
{0} in the Present Age
After {0}
The {0} of the Future
{0} On Trial
The Search After {0}
In Search of {0}
What Has {0} Ever Done For Us?


Edit: was going to delete some because repetition didn't suit them, decided to leave it seeing as I don't know how often they'll turn up. Very not sure about Anti-{0}, sometimes it sounds right and sometimes it doesn't, even with the same word.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 04:01:22 PM
Nice!  And yeah, they can include {1} for a second name to get pulled into there, if you wish.  If you use {0} more than once, it will just repeat the first name multiple times (which is sometimes useful).  I've updated the list with those!  Thanks again.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth January 30, 2015, 04:49:59 PM
How do you feel about putting it into a Google Doc Spreadsheet instead of text document version?

More specifically, with each Format Specification being on its own tab/page, followed by the lists for each variable field, each entry is its own cell, and all of the datasets are in a single document instead spread across multiple browser tabs.
I'd also suggest changing {0}  (which is used multiple times} into {a}, {b}, {c}, etc. that way we know the Consumer Products Name list is {b} instead of {0} which is used for everything. Given the labels can be easily switched back when they are implemented with search & replace, there is no cost to organize it this way. However, there is a benefit to making it easier to distinguish between the lists easily during creation, especially if the crowd sourcing effort is going to work out. Having to say the {0} List for Fiction:General is a bit more awkward than, {d}. I'd do it myself, but then you guys wouldn't have creator privileges and the ability to always have access.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 January 30, 2015, 04:55:14 PM
I'm about to turn into a pumpkin for today, but if you want to create it I'm cool with that -- I'm not worried you're going to run off with the spreadsheet.  And you actually can transfer ownership of a spreadsheet if you want to, too.

Generally speaking I'd suggest just sticking to {0}, since I'm not sure why these would be discussed in the same context anyhow... but not sure how others feel.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth January 30, 2015, 07:25:07 PM
So I think topper is on a better route. Determining a linguistic structure for each Market item makes the task more exploitable by the procedural generation techniques. Given how much Arcen uses procedural generation, I won't start preaching to the crowd. I will say that having a casual linguist create these would probably better, but this is the internet, so let's see what enthusiastic ignorance can accomplish first. I'm writing this for two different audiences (People who code and use Procedural Generation and those that don't), so please be patient with my expositions.

So, using a simple procedural structure, how far can we go? Well, here is a list of 100 Media Standard Entries I procedurally generated, without any complex filtering.

:
[1] "Lip This Week"
[1] "Distribution News"
[1] "Reluctantly Detailed Animal Lake Existence Show"
[1] "Tax Exchange"
[1] "Driving Outsiders"
[1] "Last Mine Show"
[1] "Bottle Outside"
[1] "Argument Live"
[1] "Match Exchange"
[1] "Any Ol' Verdant Apparel Lead Sports"
[1] "Wind Exclusive"
[1] "Stamp Talk"
[1] "Downtown Morning"
[1] "Yure Foot Sports Talk"
[1] "Longing Join Accurate Amazing Form Pear Fruit Year"
[1] "Balance Exclusive"
[1] "Black-and-white Cat Beetle Now"
[1] "Authority Exclusive"
[1] "Quince At Midnight"
[1] "Statement Year"
[1] "Pet Report"
[1] "Deer Show"
[1] "Nebulous Dog Week At Midnight"
[1] "Fewscore Caption Minute"
[1] "Tart Brothers Journey Center"
[1] "Peace Sports Talk"
[1] "Automatic Angle Kite Day"
[1] "Seed Report"
[1] "Hulking Boot Graceful Ants Gamy Locket Grade Live"
[1] "Place Sports Talk"
[1] "Table In Depth"
[1] "Thread Business"
[1] "That There Potato Report"
[1] "Smile Exchange"
[1] "Quietly Pricey Drink Gun Old-fashioned Balloon Canvas Hour"
[1] "Fewscore Card Outsiders"
[1] "Enough Quicksand Outsiders"
[1] "Bedroom At Midnight"
[1] "Friend Business"
[1] "Voice In Depth"
[1] "Eyes Talk"
[1] "Society Outsiders"
[1] "Tramp Opinion"
[1] "Usefully Tasteless Throne Distance Jewel Exclusive"
[1] "Son Sports"
[1] "Lively Porter Camera Business"
[1] "More Wealthy Shallow Decorous Holistic Cloud Farmer Lake Hat Bat Bit This Week"
[1] "Great Chairs Expert Talk"
[1] "Reward This Week"
[1] "Toes Opinion"
[1] "Women Second"
[1] "Calendar News"
[1] "Wrist In The Morning"
[1] "Orange Instrument Dust Day"
[1] "Seat Now"
[1] "All Ducks Insiders"
[1] "Legs Insiders"
[1] "Straw Report"
[1] "Angrily Icy Tangy Bucket Imperfect Existence Song Dark Egg Agreement Pipe This Week"
[1] "Comb Sports Talk"
[1] "Tough Heat Report"
[1] "Top And You"
[1] "Office In The Morning"
[1] "Quiet Lace Comfort Exchange"
[1] "Amount Business"
[1] "Owne Turn Day"
[1] "Care Exclusive"
[1] "Adaptable Pet Skate Live"
[1] "Music At Noon"
[1] "Quill And You"
[1] "Push Hour"
[1] "Straw At Noon"
[1] "Sense This Week"
[1] "Organization Sports"
[1] "Quodque Joke Year"
[1] "Frog In Depth"
[1] "Sky Insiders"
[1] "Sufficient Apparatus Money"
[1] "Rest Sports Talk"
[1] "Lip In Depth"
[1] "Some Advertisement Outside"
[1] "Daily Lewd Hope Incandescent Questioningly Eight Religion Clouds Sweater Face Question News"
[1] "Last Linen Sports Talk"
[1] "Too Axiomatic Chicken Scarf Ants Sports"
[1] "Full Cough Fall And You"
[1] "Flavor Minute"
[1] "In Depth Dogs Now"
[1] "Dazzling Talented Tidy Hearing Pump Pen View Business"
[1] "Smoggy Education Hate This Week"
[1] "Zis Zephyr Second"
[1] "Any And All Whole Nation Ice And You"
[1] "Person In Depth"
[1] "Wax Outside"
[1] "Shaggy Mother Page Sports"
[1] "Yak Show"
[1] "Stamp Day"
[1] "Euerie Rings Center"
[1] "Fork Talk"
[1] "Beaucoup Team Outside"
[1] "More And More Grandfather Opinion"

Sure. Some of those are rubbish, 'Quietly Pricey Drink Gun Old-fashioned Balloon Canvas Hour" is a good example.
But most of those are pretty good.

How do we do it?
We break the Market item up into Linguistic Structures and then after defining them, run a program to generate them.

Step 1: Create WordLists for the basic speech parts: noun, verb, adjective, adverb, preposition, determiner, etc  AND a few more specific lists, e.g., Media Suffix, Scientific Names, Technology Names, etc
Step 2: Create more complex PhraseStructures: Noun Phrase, Adjective Phrase, Prepositional Phrases
Step 3: Define the highest level items using Complex PhraseStructures which in turn are defined as items randomly selected from a WordList

My Setup Details
I'll discuss new types of items, but not re-explain already addressed syntax.

{MediaStandard} <- {DeterminerPhrase}{MediSuffix} #def
Here we define the MediaStandard tag as being composed of a DeterminerPhrase followed by a MediaSuffix.

{DeterminerPhrase}  #def
{NounPhrase}
{DetPhrase}{NounPhrase}

Here we define a DeterminerPhrase as EITHER only a NounPhrase or a DetPhrase AND a NounPhrase. Alternatively, we could have defined a MediaStandardPhase as a {DetPhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediaSuffix} or a {NounPhrase}{MediaSuffix}. The probability of each definition being used can be set independently for each case.

{DetPhrase} #def
{Determiner}

Here we define a DetPhrase as a random word from the Determiner word list.

{NounPhrase}  #def
{Noun}
{AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}

{AdjectivePhrase} #def
{Adjective}{NounPhrase}
{Adverb}{AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}

{PrepositionPhrase}#def
{Preposition}{NounPhrase}

##Individual Words
{Proposition}#def
{Noun}#def
{Adjective}#def
{Adverb}#def
{Determiner}#def

And there you have it.

An Example
Let's do an example to help illustrate. At each tag, we search and replace it. Once we get to a single word tag, we leave it alone and go on to the next tab. Once all tags are single words we replace them with randomly selected words from our lists.

MediaStandard is {DeterminerPhrase}{MediSuffix}
We look for a {DeterminerPhrase} and find: {DetPhrase}{NounPhrase}, so we replace {DeterminerPhrase} with {DetPhrase}{NounPhrase}. This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {DetPhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}
We look for a {DetPhrase} and find: {Determiner}, so we replace it.
We now have: {Determiner}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}
We look for a {NounPhrase} and find: {AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}, so we replace it.  This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}.
We look for a {AdjectivePhrase} and find: {Adverb}{AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}, so we replace it.  This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{Adverb}{AdjectivePhrase}{NounPhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}.
We look for a {AdjectivePhrase} and find: {Adjective}{NounPhrase}, so we replace it.  This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{Adverb}{Adjective}{NounPhrase}{NounPhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}.
We look for a {NounPhrase} and find: {Noun}, so we replace it. This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{Adverb}{Adjective}{Noun}{NounPhrase}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}.
We look for a {NounPhrase} and find: {Noun}, so we replace it. This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{Adverb}{Adjective}{Noun}{Noun}{NounPhrase}{MediSuffix}.
We look for a {NounPhrase} and find: {Noun}, so we replace it. This was one of two possible outcomes.
We now have: {Determiner}{Adverb}{Adjective}{Noun}{Noun}{Noun}{MediSuffix}.
We then sample from our lists. "All Acidly Advice Afternoon Air Weekly".

Looking at this, you can already tell we could make it better by reducing the number of times we generate a NounPhrase and replace it with a simple noun. In those cases where we do have long names, it is because the circular adverb-adjective-noun loop recurring. I tweaked it by hand reducing the probabilities of longer phrases, but redefining AdjectivePhrases and NounPhrases would probably work better.

The word lists can either be reused as is for each of the different Market items or Modified to include or exclude items. For example, one can define Military Items with specific Military nouns in addition to regular nouns.  The hard part would then be generating market-item specific lists, for this example I combined the MediaPrefix Items with the Determiner items (e.g., Think, Tough, Unscripted, Up Close with). I also created a unique MediaSuffix items from the list x4000 provided (e.g., Tonight, This Week, Show,  Report, In The Morning, In The Evening, At Noon, At Midnight).

Advantages over what is being done.

Of course, I'm just a guy with too much time on his hands and a soap box.
Attached is the zipped code I used. The code is written in R. Also attached are the wordlists in case someone wants to steal them. They were stolen from Wikipedia and some random webpages. They will work as reasonable proxies until better lists are found.  x4000's lists were too heavily flavored with Countries and other special Proper nouns to make it work well.

Update
I tweaked the code a bit and simplified some Noun Phrases. Probably a bit too much trimming, but the variation is less extreme.
:
[1] "Such Appliance In The Morning"
[1] "Lawyer Morning"
[1] "Defiantly Empty Airplane Outside"
[1] "Severall Beef Outsiders"
[1] "Nil Amuck Purpose Sports"
[1] "Band Minute"
[1] "Cow This Week"
[1] "Scene Sports"
[1] "Any And All Shock Morning"
[1] "Anotha Son And You"
[1] "Club Day"
[1] "Quarter Sports"
[1] "Cord Second"
[1] "Flag In The Morning"
[1] "Interest Sports Talk"
[1] "Kite At Midnight"
[1] "Act Center"
[1] "Every Stone Sports Talk"
[1] "Vest In The Morning"
[1] "Last Operation Exclusive"
[1] "Badly Malicious Birth In The Evening"
[1] "Just Page Talk"
[1] "Board Opinion"
[1] "Support Live"
[1] "Cemetery This Week"
[1] "Veil Talk"
[1] "Robin Opinion"
[1] "Whichever Jar And You"
[1] "Gold Insiders"
[1] "Some Ole Truck Exchange"
[1] "Guide Show"
[1] "That Kiss At Midnight"
[1] "Crack Talk"
[1] "Caption At Midnight"
[1] "Umpteen Lucky Temper Business"
[1] "Coach Report"
[1] "Pleasure Exchange"
[1] "Cream Morning"
[1] "Euerie Boy Report"
[1] "Hour Day"
[1] "Fewer Hose Year"
[1] "Tough Beast Center"
[1] "Magic Sports Talk"
[1] "Broadly Direful Look Day"
[1] "Extremely Beautiful Steam Sports"
[1] "Those Pets Year"
[1] "Lead Day"
[1] "Your Ocean Now"
[1] "Language Now"
[1] "Grandmother At Noon"
[1] "Need Minute"
[1] "Swim Sports Talk"
[1] "Various Floor News"
[1] "Powder Minute"
[1] "Atta Help News"
[1] "Almost Woebegone Deer At Midnight"
[1] "Bath Outside"
[1] "Cast Year"
[1] "Inside Bedroom Talk"
[1] "Girl Day"
[1] "Pigs Outside"
[1] "Spade Outsiders"
[1] "Stranger Live"
[1] "Cup Second"
[1] "Use Money"
[1] "Broadly Tasteful Dog Morning"
[1] "Sand Opinion"
[1] "Any Ol' Tail At Noon"
[1] "Price In The Evening"
[1] "Soup Year"
[1] "Exciting Plough Day"
[1] "Sea Now"
[1] "Foot Business"
[1] "Hair Second"
[1] "Locket This Week"
[1] "Religion Money"
[1] "Surprise Hour"
[1] "Quite A Few Veil News"
[1] "Immediately Lush Finger Talk"
[1] "Hes Harmonious Car And You"
[1] "Much Cry Talk"
[1] "Advice In The Morning"
[1] "Oranges Talk"
[1] "Each Flight Live"
[1] "Condition Business"
[1] "Surprise Opinion"
[1] "Aunt Money"
[1] "Time News"
[1] "Steel In Depth"
[1] "Dust Sports"
[1] "What Boy News"
[1] "Beam And You"
[1] "Wealth Sports Talk"
[1] "Educated Duck Minute"
[1] "Tightfisted Goat Sports Talk"
[1] "Hella Bat In The Evening"
[1] "Place In The Evening"
[1] "Thilk Eggnog Year"
[1] "That Chin Exclusive"
[1] "Some Ole Box This Week"
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth January 30, 2015, 09:18:21 PM
More in line with the original request.
I took a crack at the military terms sheet using a more automated approach.

1. Removed all numbered references (The F86 was a great plane, but I don't think that's suitable for a different culture/planet/universe).
2. Removed capital letters (Redundant items, e.g., Industrial and industrial)
3. Removed all words with nonalpha characters in them (e.g., Germany/Sweden)

That removed over 1000 items and left 3368 items.

Remaining Problems
Too many countries names. I don't think France is appropriate
Too USA-centric. There are a couple of German and Swedish names in there, but otherwise just the USA.
Too many acronyms. What's an AAVP? More importantly, is that relevant for them (i.e.,  a different culture/planet/universe)?

Suggestion
Parse lists into sublists to capture the origin of military terms and go fill those lists independently.
1. Gods- Norse, Greek, Egyptian, etc
2. Animals - Weasel, Wart Hog, Fire Hawk, Viper, etc
3. Military technology - Gun, Laser, Howitzer, Cannon, etc
4. Create a script to generate Letter and Number combinations - F-22, F-86, M-1, etc
5. Stars Names - Alpha Centauri, Proxmia, Sol,etc
6. In-game Race flavor Names - Thoraxians, Peltians, etc
7. Hi-tech Jargon - Tachyon, Warp, Thermal Fusion,etc
8. Mythical Animals - Sphinx, Phoenix, Behemoth, etc
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Zebeast46 January 30, 2015, 10:01:50 PM
On the broadcast randomly generated words I saw the words de and da, not sure if that was intentional but you know
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: TheVampire100 January 31, 2015, 05:33:26 PM
I have some new ideas for formats:

Consumer Products

{0} Chips
{0} Game
{0} Food
{0} Clock
The {0} movie
{0} Candy
{0} Cake
{0} Screen
{0} Tissues
{0} Metal
{0} Cocktail
{0} Material
{0} Music

Broadcasts

{0} TV
{0} Radio
About {0}

Military Inventions

{0} Bomb
{0} Missile
Ballistic {0}
{0} Blade
{0} Ammunition
{0} Projectiles
Orbital {0}
{0} Device
Massive {0} Cannon
{0} Vehicle
{0} Wiring
Imrpovised {0}

Writing

I think writing would better work with 3 different lists or at least two. It would first pull a name from the list with names like it is now. A improved versionw ould be, that it differ between first name and last name.
The other list would check for a title of the book. Soemthing like this:

{0} {1}'s {2}

That way you could guarantee a wider area of different names.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth January 31, 2015, 09:19:07 PM
Took a look at the Philosophy list. As wwwhhatt noted, the list is divided into names and concepts. There is a further divide in to *ology, *ism, and *.
I went through and sort into names and concepts in the google docs file labelling names with 2 and concepts as 1. The majority of the list is concepts.

As an alternative I stripped some lists of philosophy terms and grabbed a list of scientist names. Using that along with the already proposed list of philosophy frames, we generate a sample such as:

:
  [1] "In Defence Of De Dicto And De Re"              "Collected Work Of Potter"                      "In Defence Of Mimesis"                       
  [4] "Information Through History"                   "In Search Of Value"                            "Collected Work Of Diesel"                     
  [7] "The Interpellation Of Substantial Form"        "The Origins Of Disciplinary Institution"       "Thinking Through Concept"                     
 [10] "Haber, The Basic Works"                        "The Classics Of Eudaimonia"                    "A Critique Of Harmony"                       
 [13] "After Cartesian Self"                          "Understanding Sattva"                          "An Enquiry Concerning Material Cause"         
 [16] "Notes On Thrownness"                           "Final Cause On Trial"                          "Artificial Condition Of Possibility"         
 [19] "Class Philosophy"                              "Gauss Simplified"                              "Collected Work Of Hilbert"                   
 [22] "The Wisdom Of Norm Of Reciprocity"             "On Unity Of The Proposition"                   "An Enquiry Concerning Moksha"                 
 [25] "The Quality Problem"                           "Khan On Trial"                                 "In Defence Of Dwelling"                       
 [28] "Empirical Relationship"                        "The Essence Of Moksha"                         "In Defence Of Formal Theorem"                 
 [31] "The Hate Speech Of Bosch"                      "On Telos"                                      "Anthropic In The Present Age"                 
 [34] "Reform In The Present Age"                     "The Maya Of The Future"                        "Understanding Kathekon"                       
 [37] "After Sense Data"                              "The Essence Of Presupposition"                 "Artificial Gemeinschaft And Gesellschaft"     
 [40] "Style On Trial"                                "In Defence Of Om"                              "The Wisdom Of Desiring-production"           
 [43] "Landsteiner Simplified"                        "Semantics Philosophy"                          "The Immanent Critique Of Conjecture"         
 [46] "The Formal Theorem Of Nature"                  "The Telos Of Copernicus"                       "The Distributive Justice Of The Future"       
 [49] "Dispositional And Occurrent Belief Philosophy" "The Way Of Choice"                             "Notes On Pratyabhijna"                       
 [52] "Quality Through History"                       "A Treatise On Intellectual Responsibility"     "Advanced Molina"                             
 [55] "Jus Sanguinis Collections"                     "The Foundations Of Aesthetic Emotions"         "Notes On Diksha"                             
 [58] "The Vamachara Principle"                       "Percept On Trial"                              "The Magnificence Of The Future"               
 [61] "The Search After Choice"                       "A Treatise On Conscience"                      "The Classics Of Notion"                       
 [64] "In Defence Of Wrong"                           "A Treatise On Magnificence"                    "On Camp"                                     
 [67] "The Kalachakra Problem"                        "Against Sortal"                                "The Foundations Of Dhyana"                   
 [70] "The Pattern Of Presupposition"                 "Against Composition Of Causes"                 "In Defence Of Arborescent"                   
 [73] "The Duty Principle"                            "The Pneuma Of The Future"                      "The Wisdom Of Property"                       
 [76] "Bernard Simplified"                            "Notes On Gricean Maxims"                       "The Way Of Antinomian"                       
 [79] "An Enquiry Concerning Avant-garde"             "Existence In The Present Age"                  "Artificial Empirical Research"               
 [82] "The Origins Of Epistemic Virtue"               "The Abstract Object Of Norm Of Reciprocity"    "On Idea"                                     
 [85] "After Eupraxis"                                "The Origins Of Objectivity"                    "On Ti"                                       
 [88] "The Search After Disgust"                      "An Enquiry Concerning Peripatetic Axiom"       "Posthegemony Through History"                 
 [91] "In Defence Of Zeitgeist"                       "Name Philosophy"                               "In Defence Of Category Of Being"             
 [94] "Collected Work Of Aristarchus"                 "A Treatise On Subject"                         "What Has Simulacrum Ever Done For Us?"       
 [97] "Artificial Identity"                           "The Qualia Problem"                            "The Nonmaleficence Of The Future"             
[100] "Nakaya Simplified"

They sound pretty good. I note some plurality conjugation issues (e.g., "On Idea"), but it is still pretty good.

Attached are the data lists I used. An expanded philosophy frames, a list of scientist names, a list of philosophical concepts, a list of mythical names, and a list of greek mythical names.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Teal_Blue January 31, 2015, 10:02:00 PM
a number of your entries for the first list, are names and i was thinking it would be interesting if there were names from many different cultures, african, irish, celtic, russian, norwegian, native american indian, welsh, scottish, dutch perhaps? Anyway, i found a site, SheKnows  and there are a lot of listings. Will try to compile some and add them to the document? Or would you prefer just the suggestion and you can make the call on whether or not to add them?

-Teal

http://www.sheknows.com/baby-names/

: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth February 01, 2015, 02:29:17 AM
One of the problems with the names is that they are all Earth Names. So they aren't going to work for the alien species, unless George is more common intergalactically that I had imagined.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Teal_Blue February 01, 2015, 08:27:38 PM
good point!

I can make some up, but is there a preferred spelling or character format for the races?

Like

Krg... in some combination for the Burlusts?   (Kreegar)

Numbers... for the machine races    (Din Lee-7721)

Apostrophe's...  (T'Lir)

Or

a race that always uses a certain letter to start names... like say 'S'
So we have names like...
Saren, Sael, Soroth, Salon, or Sterek, or Skierra, etc...

I could if you have an idea of a format you want, or if you want me to make up the format that is cool too.

Thanks,
-Teal

: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt February 02, 2015, 10:20:49 AM
a number of your entries for the first list, are names and i was thinking it would be interesting if there were names from many different cultures, african, irish, celtic, russian, norwegian, native american indian, welsh, scottish, dutch perhaps?
Connected to this, I was adding in some Indian and Arabic people and concepts to philosophy, and often the transliteration uses accents and related things (e.g.  ?a?kara). Would they be usable, or should we stick to plain letters?

Edit: And the forum illustrates my question? Thanks forum!
(It was a copy&pasted name from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concept-emotion-india/ )
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Teal_Blue February 02, 2015, 07:54:55 PM
With regards your question to use the accents or plain letters? My guess is the accents make for all the interesting differences, or at least a lot, however not everyone is going to have a computer that can maybe show those cool accent symbols, so.... maybe plain is better? Or have both, but that may be a bear to have different folders with the same data, just one with accents?

Anyway, i'll put a list together, of ideas for the races, oh, we have a list of all the races in the game on this forum right?

Thanks!
-Teal




p.s.   just a quick thought... names and religions, perhaps even governments can be referred to by alien names that humans have no experience with. However, things, such as trees, buildings, weapons and equipment such as generators, tractors, computers, harvesters, seeders, etc... are all going to need  'translation' in order to be understood. Has anyone addressed this yet?

How do we get those items in some form that players will know what they mean when they see them?

I hadn't thought of that before and am wondering how to approach it now.

Off the top of my head there is a possibility, maybe a bad one? Like something like pig-latin? Where the words are modified versions of english words but obviously alien.

Anyway, will try with the rest of it first and see if i can make any sense of it, and post it and see what everyone else thinks.

Thanks,
T

: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt February 03, 2015, 09:28:23 AM
List of races: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15992.0.html

There was some talk about using linguistics (in the game) to translate messages in diplomatic discussions here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16506.msg182301.html#msg182301

It was a while ago though, and I can't find anything written about it since. Maybe it will work like that, otherwise I'm assuming that everything in the market has been translated, so names would be alien but objects would be in the players language.

This thread has doubled the strength of my procrastination powers.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Draco18s February 03, 2015, 12:21:57 PM
Broadcast addition:

{0} Edition

Your list of {0} entries seems to be populated with names ("Bill" "Steve") which still work ("Steve Edition") but doesn't seem to have other things like "Morning."  E.g. Morning Edition (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/).

Just grabbing a chunk from the first post:
:
{0} Center Morning Center Steve Center
{0} Insiders Morning Insiders Steve Insiders
{0} News Morning News Steve News
The {0} The Morning The Steve
Doctor {0} Doctor Morning Doctor Steve
{0} Business Morning Business Steve Business
{0} Exchange Morning Exchange Steve Exchange
{0} Morning Morning Morning Steve Morning
Here's {0} Here's Morning Here's Steve
In Depth {0} In Depth Morning In Depth Steve
Inside {0} Inside Morning Inside Steve

That makes me think that the google doc of broadcasters is different from the name of their show and that we're missing a doc.  "Here's Steve" is a fine title for a show, but "Steve Insiders"...not so much ("Morning Morning" is a little odd, but it does work, say... "Morning, morning, gooooood morning Murica!" getting shortened down to just "Morning Morning").1  I think you need a stronger title format, eg.
{Title} Business with {Host}
Here's {Host} with {Host}
Italics either being something that's implied (not actually textual), after a colon, a subtitle, or as part of the description.  That way you could get "Morning Edition (hosted by Steve Jones)" as one option or "Steve's Thoughts" as another.

1And now that word looks incorrectly spelled.  Gah.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Teal_Blue February 03, 2015, 09:25:10 PM
List of races: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15992.0.html

Thank you!

There was some talk about using linguistics (in the game) to translate messages in diplomatic discussions here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16506.msg182301.html#msg182301

Very nice, thanks again.

It was a while ago though, and I can't find anything written about it since. Maybe it will work like that, otherwise I'm assuming that everything in the market has been translated, so names would be alien but objects would be in the players language.


Sounds reasonable.


This thread has doubled the strength of my procrastination powers.

Haha, i can understand. I look at the Google docs and ask myself, do i understand what they are doing here? Well, dive in and maybe it will make sense later.  :) Haha, anyway, i can totally relate.

-Teal

: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt February 04, 2015, 07:13:58 AM
About alien names: the leaders in TLF are all named, is there a list of them anywhere that could be used? (And anything similar in AI War? I haven't made it out of the tutorial campaign yet)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth February 04, 2015, 07:16:43 PM
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 13, 2015, 05:21:58 PM
Hey guys!  I'm really sorry about completely falling off the map with this.  ptarth, thanks for the PM poking me about this.

To be perfectly honest, I don't have strong feelings on how these things come out so long as they are thematic and cool.  In other words, I don't have a really narrow definition of "oh, these must be in MLA format or Chicago style" or whatever, if we're comparing this to essays. ;)

Basically, the general things I would say:

1. If you guys can design different grammar frames (as you put it) that we have to put into secondary lists that then get combined in new fashions, that's not a big deal at all.  Aka, if some of them need to pull nouns for {1} and verbs for {0} or whatever, that can be managed.  If it's relatively simple logic (which most sentences are), then it's not a big deal for us to implement the variants.  The hard part is getting the data more than anything else.

2. Definitely was not intending to have lots of Bobs and Steves.  I was planning on going through there and culling out all that stuff, as well as possibly coding a scrambler that mixes up the names in ways that are nice and alien.  But if you guys have alternate sources of lists that are more alien-sounding (without infringing copyright), then I am perfectly happy to completely ditch anything I'm doing there.

3. In short, I'm not super attached to anything I've done so far, as it was mostly a first-pass let's-have-something-to-see sort of situation.  I needed a way to be able to tell apart the names of market items, for sure.  But the more robust and interesting we can make this, within reason, the better.  I am pretty much blocked from working on that right now due to all the other stuff taking up my time, but I promise I will be better about actually coming here to comment. ;)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Draco18s March 14, 2015, 11:09:18 AM
2. Definitely was not intending to have lots of Bobs and Steves.  I was planning on going through there and culling out all that stuff, as well as possibly coding a scrambler that mixes up the names in ways that are nice and alien.  But if you guys have alternate sources of lists that are more alien-sounding (without infringing copyright), then I am perfectly happy to completely ditch anything I'm doing there.

Oh I wasn't worried about names like Bob and Steve, just that grammatically using the host's name (even if its Xerkik'iii) doesn't seem to work very well.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 14, 2015, 11:45:23 AM
I'm cool with changing all of that around, too.

Honestly if we had a way of just coming up with, say, 1000 unique names for each list, that's fine also.  Aka, making the names not be procedural even though the underlying stats and so forth would be.  I don't think there would be more than 1000 of a given type of item created during a game, and if we had to then we could go to roman numerals after that.  Or adjectives, depending on the thing.

So if we had a "Phaser Blaster" as a military tech name, then we could have a variety of adjectives to apply to it.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 17, 2015, 01:22:03 AM
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 17, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
  • I finally figured out what sccuddly hugd means.

Haha, oops.  It should be able to say scraped properly now, lol.  I've been meaning to fix that censoring thing on that word for a bit.

  • I've been having problems grokking the market, but my current guess is that it is a way of generating cultural artifacts for use a bartering items in trade. That is to say, the player will trade all 6 seasons of Xena:Warrior Princess for the Plasmoid Death Ray Technology. Did I finally get it?
    • If so, then I also finally understand how the names will work. They are names use for the creation of the player's race's literature and works of art. So the names would be names from the player's race.
Yes, pretty much.  Except it's not just the player's race, it's also stuff being created by all of the AI races as well.  You as the player can buy or license stuff from the AI, and they from you.  Specifically you can agree to be an arms supplier for "Greater Lasers of Mordor" or whatever, and they in turn supply you with "Bleeding Shields of Camp Cannan" or whatever.  Joke names, of course.

Overall there are a number of categories of stuff:
- Broadcast: this stuff is television and radio programs.  Anything from news reports to reality tv to edutainment to whatever.  PG, of course.  But it's basically cable channels that you might subscribe to, or might get subscribers to.
- Invention_ConsumerProduct: things like fireworks, soaps, ipads, lawn equipment, whatever.  Stuff that is sold to individuals.
- Inventions_Military: weapons, shields, and other physical military equipment.  Not vehicles, as those would have to be on the map visible.  These would all be armaments for soldiers or vehicles or buildings or what have you, not actual full things.
- Philosophy: philosophical ideas ranging from Plato to Nietzsche, but all fictionalized of course.  The pursuit of Truth from a variety of angles both good and bad.
- Writing_Fiction: mostly novels for entertainment.
- Writing_Nonfiction: Scholarly writings about specific things.  So for instance it might be describing psychological experiments, or the habitat of some new insect that was found, or the chemical properties of x molecule when in y conditions, etc.
- Writing_Periodical: magazines of various sorts.  Might be entertainment or pop culture, might be more serious publications, it varies.  Mostly in a middle ground of not being too scholarly and not being smutty.  So it's a bit more high-brow than broadcasts, but this isn't Science or Nature or any of those sorts of journals, either.
- Writing_Poetry: these would range from little soppy sonnets all the way up to epic ballads of the tales of great warriors.

  • If all of this holds, then it seasons reasonable to split the task in two.
    • Task 1: Create 1500 items for each list. Crowd-source modifications/error checking, keeping the originally generated item and the new change. Arcen would then select as many of those items as they want in game as a quick fix.
    • Task 2: Continue to define and specify the grammar, frames, and lists of filler words, accounting for the correction made while doing Task 1. If the generation actually creates good enough items, then this would be swapped in place of the lists. If not, then the 1500 lists may be more items than any player would ever see, and so would be an adequate (if inelegant) solution.
    • If this all holds, then I think the only real hold-up for auto-generating lists is the creation of a list of Proper Names (Earth culture would be reasonable, especially if we used multiple cultures) and then the military tech frames and word lists.
Something along those lines would probably work, although I'm curious as to your thoughts based on the above information that I just shared.  My thoughts are that it's going to be awkward if the burlusts are creating soppy poetry or if their broadcasts sound like something that are overly newsy or something.  So having some thematic sub-groupings of things by tone would likely be good.  Not assigned to specific races, but saying "these are sonnets" and "these are epic battle poems" might be good to make two lists.  NOT both being 1500 lines long by any stretch, but some division of it.

Then we'd need some proper nouns and/or adjectives as appropriate for the lists in question, with different rules per kind of list, as you noted.  Since this could vary by race, it's something that we'd want different proper nouns by race in some cases, or different adjectives.

For instance, if there was a general broadcast named The {0} Show, then we might have a "hostile nouns" list that the burlusts plug into that sort of thing, which would include words like "Murder" and "Knife" and "Laser" and so forth.  We might have an "underwater nouns" list that the yali plug into that same thing, with words like "Seaweed" and "Coral" and "Eel" and so forth.

And then there might be other groups of broadcasts that look for proper nouns instead.[/list][/list]
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Captain Jack March 17, 2015, 01:27:39 PM
My thoughts are that it's going to be awkward if the burlusts are creating soppy poetry or if their broadcasts sound like something that are overly newsy or something.
Don't see how, they love chocolate and it's one step from dark mocha fudge to "Freckles dappled her face like the stars beyond our reach".  :D

I'm actually in favor of leaving a few odd bits in as attention checks. Or you could build a special event around the example you gave, with the Burlurst standing in for Vogons.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 17, 2015, 01:37:46 PM
Hahahaha, Vogons do have the monopoly on poetry that makes your brain crawl out your ears, don't they?
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Captain Jack March 17, 2015, 02:11:54 PM
Only until someone undercuts them. I imagine the Burlurst have a very literal interpretation of "cut-throat capitalism". Or--god just imagine--the Acutians might see room for a growth industry. I mean Fifty Shades got a movie so...

Anyway, I make the case that there is space for deliberately inappropriate market items, with caveats.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 17, 2015, 02:53:01 PM
Sure, that makes sense.

Roses are Red.
Poems are Nice.
There's a bomb in this book.
Now you are Dead.

Sounds very Burlustian to me. ;)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 18, 2015, 12:54:58 AM
Well, I get the name generation task, so that's good.
Unfortunately, the entire market system still doesn't make any sense to me. Mind you, I also have an focus on underlying system mechanics, (per my TLF obsessions). I'm trying to understand the volume of items and the naming system in regards to market system and economic contributions to the player's race, and I keep coming up short.

My problem is that it seems like the market system is combining too many different things, and I can't really imagine how it works. For example a single military market item (e.g., the AK-47 and its numerous produced units) would be a small fraction of the total amount of the total military market for a race. Likewise a single poetry novel would be a pittance compared to a single military item. The number of copies of 50 Shades of Blue that would have to be sold to make keeping track of individual items worthwhile seems out of scale. You'd see something like 1000 different poetry book items would have the same impact as 1 military weapon items. And a 100 military weapon items would have the same impact as a single type of livestock sales to Burlusts.

On of the big problems with M003 was they added too much detail without any real difference. You'd see technologies that increased missile speed by 5%, and it made all the research feel trivial. From what it seems so far, this system has the same problem. You are either representing a massive class of items by a single item name (e.g., The NotDaily Show represents ALL (or a large segment) of broadcast media), which is a bit weird, because a generic label Media Items Class II would make more sense. Or you have a onslaught of individual items, each minute effects, which makes any single item trivial. Bionic Dues had this problem for me in mid-game. I was hard pressed to sort through all of that gear to find the best gear. Instead of optimizing (which does my little black heart good), I'd run with the same set of gear for a couple of missions, until either I was starting to slow down in killing things or couldn't take the inefficiency any longer. It wasn't as fun as I was hoping it would be.

In my search to try to verbalize my problem, I ran across The Atlas of Economic Complexity. It allows you to look at the categories of items and their contributions to trade levels on an import/export basis per country. It's pretty cool. For example, it will tell you that in 2012 Angola exported $1922 worth of umbrella or walking stick parts. It combines resources as long with commercial goods, which I thought was the difference between the Market and the Resources in tWiM, but you can still isolate things to get some perspectives.
http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/usa/all/show/2012/

The CIA Fact Book is also a great source of information: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/
For example in Niue a large portion of its GDP comes from exporting postage stamps to private collectors.

TLDR Summary
I don't understand the purpose and instantiation of the market system. tLF, Bionic Dues, and AWWW1/2 all suffer from having too many too similar items with minor differences, and it seems like SBR might suffer similarly. I think it lowers the appeal of the game to a general audience. However, I'm a single outlier perspective, and it might just be my imagination.



On to the topic of the generation. The specifications seem reasonable. Having racial characteristic profiles would be a first step towards being able to parse things better. So for example, Burlusts have a high aggression trait and a low philosophy trait. So you'd see them offering a wide variety of customized weapon technologies and books about such technologies. In constrast, they would have very few philosophical works, most of which are at a rather primitive level of thought (whose main used might possibly be to wrap fish) and perhaps involving power dynamics via kinetic exchange. By defining what characteristics the races have, we could then rate or sort the word lists by those traits. Then use weighted probabilities of each race to select the specific words for their racial lists. You could also have preferences for types of market items, so you'd see the Burlusts produce more and be more interested in weapon items, especially the esoteric weird ones, while they aren't interested in delicate Skylaxian perfumes.

Something along those lines would probably work, although I'm curious as to your thoughts based on the above information that I just shared.  My thoughts are that it's going to be awkward if the burlusts are creating soppy poetry or if their broadcasts sound like something that are overly newsy or something.  So having some thematic sub-groupings of things by tone would likely be good.  Not assigned to specific races, but saying "these are sonnets" and "these are epic battle poems" might be good to make two lists.  NOT both being 1500 lines long by any stretch, but some division of it.

So I don't see a major problem with the generation, the addition of racial characteristic lists would make things relatively straightforward. Fleshing out the races or letting the forum have access to some of the more fleshed out information about the races would also be nice. For example, I really don't have any idea how the Spire feel about Sit-Coms or Jellyfish.

Then we'd need some proper nouns and/or adjectives as appropriate for the lists in question, with different rules per kind of list, as you noted.  Since this could vary by race, it's something that we'd want different proper nouns by race in some cases, or different adjectives.

For instance, if there was a general broadcast named The {0} Show, then we might have a "hostile nouns" list that the burlusts plug into that sort of thing, which would include words like "Murder" and "Knife" and "Laser" and so forth.  We might have an "underwater nouns" list that the yali plug into that same thing, with words like "Seaweed" and "Coral" and "Eel" and so forth.

And then there might be other groups of broadcasts that look for proper nouns instead.

Yep. That should be straight forward. There are two nice part about arranging things based on race characteristics instead of defining the characteristics of the words. First, it allows words to be multifaceted. Lasers are both weapons and elegant photon based artistic tools (as opposed to shotguns). Races that find aesthetics and/or war appealing would both like lasers. Secondly, it allows gradients in racial characteristics. So the Skylaxians might be 80% interesting in science, compared to the Evuks who are 100% interested in science.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: wwwhhattt March 18, 2015, 08:19:32 AM
Could probabilities be attached to the frames, so that more distinctive frames turn up less often than more generic ones?
There could be any number of 'The Daily {0}'s or '{0} gun's without any problem, but too many 'Romancing the {0}'s and 'An Enquiry Concerning {0}'s would seem weird, possibly immersion breaking.

And for the inclusion of racial names, could we get a list of names from TLF to add to the spreadsheet?
If there will be names and the different races have different interests, then the spread of authorship throughout the races should reflect that - so if Skylaxians only have 80% interest in science compared to the Evucks 100%, then presumably there would be more scientific things written by Evucks than by Skylaxians.

I quite like the idea of dissident Burlust striking out against their tyrannical warlords by writing horrendously sweet pastoral poetry.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 18, 2015, 11:39:45 PM
The Last Federation Racial Name system can be obtained using in game testing and referencing some text files. I think this list is pretty accurate.

Acution - [two characters]-[two digit number]  (all upper case)
Burlust - [3 letter syllable (2 consonant, 1 vowel) taken from BurlustNameParts.txt][another syllable from same list] (title case)
Peltian - [2 letter syllable (1 vowel, 1 consonant) taken from PeltianNameParts.txt][another syllable from same list] (all lower case)
Evuck - [2 letter syllable (1 vowel, 1 consonant) taken from EvuckFirstNameParts.txt] [4 letter syllable (2 vowel, 2 consonant, occasionally 1 vowel 3 consonant) taken from EvuckSecondNameParts.txt][another syllable from SecondNameParts] (first name lower case, second name, title case)
Skylaxian - [5 letter syllable from SkylianNameParts (2/3 vowels, 3/2 consonants] [Roman Numerals](title case)
Andorian - [letter][number][letter][number](all upper case)
Outpost Names contains lots of names for use as outpost names
Boarines - Specimen [4 digit number]
Thoraxines - Thoraxine Queens don't name themselves
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 19, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Unfortunately, the entire market system still doesn't make any sense to me. Mind you, I also have an focus on underlying system mechanics, (per my TLF obsessions). I'm trying to understand the volume of items and the naming system in regards to market system and economic contributions to the player's race, and I keep coming up short.

My problem is that it seems like the market system is combining too many different things, and I can't really imagine how it works. For example a single military market item (e.g., the AK-47 and its numerous produced units) would be a small fraction of the total amount of the total military market for a race. Likewise a single poetry novel would be a pittance compared to a single military item. The number of copies of 50 Shades of Blue that would have to be sold to make keeping track of individual items worthwhile seems out of scale. You'd see something like 1000 different poetry book items would have the same impact as 1 military weapon items. And a 100 military weapon items would have the same impact as a single type of livestock sales to Burlusts.

Quantities don't come into play here.  Rather it's a matter of "do we supply AK47s to you, yes or no, and how much do you value that."  You have to have a certain manufacturing capacity to supply AK47s to a race, but again there's not quantities involved in the transaction.  The AK47s, meanwhile, are basically a procedurally-generated technolgy in the Civ sense -- they have some buffs that they give you for having that market item in general, and they give a buff to whoever you are making them for while you are supplying them.  In return you get money and goodwill and whatnot back from the other race.

Similarly, they might have 50 Shades of Blue that they are willing to sell you copies of, or they might have a new philosophy that you outright buy or sell one time (once that knowledge is transferred, that's it, in those cases).

Different kinds of market items give different sorts of benefits, but they are all basically like procedural techs.  Exactly how many of these you will see in a given game is a question still, but my intent is for it to not be too many so that they remain valuable and so that they aren't in your face constantly.  THAT said, the amount will vary greatly based on whether you are focused on the market aspect of the game or focused on some other area.  Same as with the military -- you might do a lot of fighting, or comparably little.

But either way, it's all about the "procedural techs" here, not about quantities of items or whatever.  There's more to it than that, but that's enough for now I'd think.

One of the big problems with M003 was they added too much detail without any real difference. You'd see technologies that increased missile speed by 5%, and it made all the research feel trivial.

I'm quite sensitive to that problem, and that's one of the things that my dial-tuning is involving.  How much you can do on a turn, how big of an impact this and that has, etc.  I actually cut 34 technologies from the main tech tree, combining them into other techs, because I felt like I was getting too many techs too quickly, and each one had too little impact.

Previously I had done a similar thing with the social progress system, because I felt like I was getting too many of those with 36 levels of social progress.  More recently I realized that just having 8 categories of social progress gains was not exciting to me, and even with less granular improvements per level I was just not excited by the system.  So I'm in the process of switching that system around into something that is actually based heavily around the skill trees in Dying Light, which I've been playing a lot recently and find really compelling.  It has some similarities to the Culture stuff in Civ 5 as well, without being too close.

I haven't gotten into the balance testing on the market items yet, I'll be honest.  Those are more middle-game and after, and I haven't gotten there yet except militarily.  It's a big game, and that hasn't been my first focus because it's not likely to be the first focus of new players.  But you don't need to worry about that winding up in a state that is frustratingly granular, because that's something that probably bugs me more than you. ;)  I have absolutely zero patience for that.

From what it seems so far, this system has the same problem. You are either representing a massive class of items by a single item name (e.g., The NotDaily Show represents ALL (or a large segment) of broadcast media), which is a bit weird, because a generic label Media Items Class II would make more sense. Or you have a onslaught of individual items, each minute effects, which makes any single item trivial. Bionic Dues had this problem for me in mid-game. I was hard pressed to sort through all of that gear to find the best gear. Instead of optimizing (which does my little black heart good), I'd run with the same set of gear for a couple of missions, until either I was starting to slow down in killing things or couldn't take the inefficiency any longer. It wasn't as fun as I was hoping it would be.

Yep, understood.  Here's the thing, though -- are you American?  I think if you are (I am), it may skew your view somewhat.  We have a ton of TV shows, for instance, that we export to all the countries in the world.  But how many TV shows from, say, Kenya do we watch?  If Kenya had a show called Broken Bad that everyone just loved, it's entirely reasonable that's their only Broadcast export.  It's not saying that's the only TV show in Kenya by any stretch.  But the other countries all have their own culture and so forth, and this is the only TV show that actually rises to a level of notability and hops the divide.

If you look at arms manufacture, that's a better representation.  A lot of European countries make a lot of planes and tanks and whatnot.  And they maintain those internally, for the most part.  But some of them make a particular model that is so good that they sell those to others; but that's not to say that's the only type of plane or tank or whatever that they make.

Does that make sense?  I'm not trying to simulate an entire global market -- that would be incredibly boring.  Instead it's a matter of the trade items that rise to such significance that heads of state discuss them.

In my search to try to verbalize my problem, I ran across The Atlas of Economic Complexity. It allows you to look at the categories of items and their contributions to trade levels on an import/export basis per country. It's pretty cool. For example, it will tell you that in 2012 Angola exported $1922 worth of umbrella or walking stick parts. It combines resources as long with commercial goods, which I thought was the difference between the Market and the Resources in tWiM, but you can still isolate things to get some perspectives.
http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore/tree_map/export/usa/all/show/2012/

The CIA Fact Book is also a great source of information: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/
For example in Niue a large portion of its GDP comes from exporting postage stamps to private collectors.

Cool resources!  Those are definitely way more broad than I'm looking for, though, because they are focused around entire market segments, whereas I'm looking to represent key market leader items in given segments.  Show me your most amazing car, Belgium, not every car you make.  Etc.

tLF, Bionic Dues, and AWWW1/2 all suffer from having too many too similar items with minor differences, and it seems like SBR might suffer similarly. I think it lowers the appeal of the game to a general audience. However, I'm a single outlier perspective, and it might just be my imagination.

I actually agree with you on that assessment with all those games, and it's something that I am, as I said, extremely sensitive to.  Part of the problem was me not playing those games enough in a direct fashion, because I get frustrated with that level of minutia pretty fast.  I playtested all those games extensively, but doing "unit testing" versus whole playthroughs, is a very different thing.  With AI War and SBR my testing methodology is very different, and one of the very first things I found with my "dial turning" stuff for SBR was a need to adjust the granularity of stuff.

I had already made the market items pretty non-granular in anticipation of not wanting to be bugged all the time, though.  As I noted I have yet to really test those in proper play -- just unit testing so far -- so I don't know if it will feel too granular or not.  If it does, then I'll be dialing that so that it feels proper before any testers ever get their hands on it.

On to the topic of the generation. The specifications seem reasonable. Having racial characteristic profiles would be a first step towards being able to parse things better. So for example, Burlusts have a high aggression trait and a low philosophy trait. So you'd see them offering a wide variety of customized weapon technologies and books about such technologies. In constrast, they would have very few philosophical works, most of which are at a rather primitive level of thought (whose main used might possibly be to wrap fish) and perhaps involving power dynamics via kinetic exchange. By defining what characteristics the races have, we could then rate or sort the word lists by those traits. Then use weighted probabilities of each race to select the specific words for their racial lists. You could also have preferences for types of market items, so you'd see the Burlusts produce more and be more interested in weapon items, especially the esoteric weird ones, while they aren't interested in delicate Skylaxian perfumes.

Yep, there's all that sort of thing defined.  Various races don't even produce certain types of items, and various races have literally zero interest in certain types of items.  The thing is, I'd like a system that is more flexible than trying to make a race-specific list for each thing.  What if we add more races in an expansion?  What if we decide that the Burlusts actually do have a philosophical bent?  Etc.  I'd rather have things like adjectives and nouns that are per-race that can be used across multiple item classes.  So if a burlust noun was "blood," you might have "Fifty Shades of Blood" and "Blood Rifle" and "A Treatise on Blood" or whatever as items in three different categories.

Something along those lines would probably work, although I'm curious as to your thoughts based on the above information that I just shared.  My thoughts are that it's going to be awkward if the burlusts are creating soppy poetry or if their broadcasts sound like something that are overly newsy or something.  So having some thematic sub-groupings of things by tone would likely be good.  Not assigned to specific races, but saying "these are sonnets" and "these are epic battle poems" might be good to make two lists.  NOT both being 1500 lines long by any stretch, but some division of it.

So I don't see a major problem with the generation, the addition of racial characteristic lists would make things relatively straightforward. Fleshing out the races or letting the forum have access to some of the more fleshed out information about the races would also be nice. For example, I really don't have any idea how the Spire feel about Sit-Coms or Jellyfish.

Yep, I'll get you to that in a sec.

Then we'd need some proper nouns and/or adjectives as appropriate for the lists in question, with different rules per kind of list, as you noted.  Since this could vary by race, it's something that we'd want different proper nouns by race in some cases, or different adjectives.

For instance, if there was a general broadcast named The {0} Show, then we might have a "hostile nouns" list that the burlusts plug into that sort of thing, which would include words like "Murder" and "Knife" and "Laser" and so forth.  We might have an "underwater nouns" list that the yali plug into that same thing, with words like "Seaweed" and "Coral" and "Eel" and so forth.

And then there might be other groups of broadcasts that look for proper nouns instead.

Yep. That should be straight forward. There are two nice part about arranging things based on race characteristics instead of defining the characteristics of the words. First, it allows words to be multifaceted. Lasers are both weapons and elegant photon based artistic tools (as opposed to shotguns). Races that find aesthetics and/or war appealing would both like lasers. Secondly, it allows gradients in racial characteristics. So the Skylaxians might be 80% interesting in science, compared to the Evuks who are 100% interested in science.

Yep, I see you're already on the same track as me. :)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 19, 2015, 08:50:36 AM
Could probabilities be attached to the frames, so that more distinctive frames turn up less often than more generic ones?
There could be any number of 'The Daily {0}'s or '{0} gun's without any problem, but too many 'Romancing the {0}'s and 'An Enquiry Concerning {0}'s would seem weird, possibly immersion breaking.

Sure, absolutely.  That could be done in a couple of ways.  One, we could have separate files for different levels of probability.  The other is that we could have different numbers of "grab bag tickets" noted for each item.  How that would work is this:

1000|The Daily {0}
1000|{0} gun
40|Romancing the {0}
200|An Enquiry Concerning {0}

Let's pretend that those are all in one list.  Now imagine a raffle.  Pretend that each of those items gets one raffle ticket for the item to the left of the pipe.  They all go into one "grab bag," and then a random ticket is pulled out.  Given a different number of items, the probabilities would shift drastically of course.  But in this particular example, you'd have 2240 tickets in total, so the probabilities would be 44%, 44%, 1.7%, and 8.9%, respectively.

Doing something like that is extremely common in our code, and it would not be hard to put that into the flat files with a pipe delimiter like that.

And for the inclusion of racial names, could we get a list of names from TLF to add to the spreadsheet?
If there will be names and the different races have different interests, then the spread of authorship throughout the races should reflect that - so if Skylaxians only have 80% interest in science compared to the Evucks 100%, then presumably there would be more scientific things written by Evucks than by Skylaxians.

I quite like the idea of dissident Burlust striking out against their tyrannical warlords by writing horrendously sweet pastoral poetry.

Haha.  I'll get the list of things races are interested in uploaded shortly, after I finish the next couple of replies in this thread.  In terms of the names from TLF, those were all procedurally generated, and only for the 8 races there.  I'd like to kind of start fresh in some respects here, as the cultures are different enough on this planet that I think that's warranted.

edit:

The Last Federation Racial Name system can be obtained using in game testing and referencing some text files. I think this list is pretty accurate.

Acution - [two characters]-[two digit number]  (all upper case)
Burlust - [3 letter syllable (2 consonant, 1 vowel) taken from BurlustNameParts.txt][another syllable from same list] (title case)
Peltian - [2 letter syllable (1 vowel, 1 consonant) taken from PeltianNameParts.txt][another syllable from same list] (all lower case)
Evuck - [2 letter syllable (1 vowel, 1 consonant) taken from EvuckFirstNameParts.txt] [4 letter syllable (2 vowel, 2 consonant, occasionally 1 vowel 3 consonant) taken from EvuckSecondNameParts.txt][another syllable from SecondNameParts] (first name lower case, second name, title case)
Skylaxian - [5 letter syllable from SkylianNameParts (2/3 vowels, 3/2 consonants] [Roman Numerals](title case)
Andorian - [letter][number][letter][number](all upper case)
Outpost Names contains lots of names for use as outpost names
Boarines - Specimen [4 digit number]
Thoraxines - Thoraxine Queens don't name themselves

Whoops, you already beat me to it.  Anyhow, yes, that's the system from the looks of it.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 19, 2015, 10:37:45 AM
Okay, this took longer than I expected, but here's an online doc with the relevant information: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y-vvJ_7hLMjruazV3IJry2zVPfVwSC1Nx2CZpBMOhvQ/edit?usp=sharing

I wound up doing some slight rebalancing of some of the AIs once I saw things in action.

Notes:
1. The early columns in there about BuyKnow, ImportMil, etc, are all leader-specific things that determine some of their behaviors in terms of what they will buy from you, broadly speaking.  It lets some leaders absolutely avoid buying or sharing things even though their race normally would.

2. makeBroad, makeConsum, etc, are all the really interesting columns in terms of determining just how much races like various things, and how quickly (kind of) they will make them.  These numbers are misleading, because they are just a sum of the values off all the building types, and the races will have many multiples of many of the types, so the actual production values could vary enormously game to game based on what the AI is up to (including what the specific leader's goals are).  But in terms of a general "how interested is this race in this" quotient, these are the general numbers that are used right now.

3. Anything that is blank in the makeBroad, makeConsum, etc columns means that race never makes that sort of thing when in the hands of the AI.  You will never ever see Broadcasts from the Acutians, at least not with this data configuration (a simple configuration change would alter that, of course).

4. BroadcastTypes, ConsumerProductTypes, etc, are all thematic fields that I just added today, and aren't in the game in any way.  These explain the reasoning and theming behind what each race is using that type of thing for.  In other words, the Krolin put out a lot of "fiction," but it's all meant to be propaganda, haha.

5. All of the pink/purple text items in BroadcastTypes, ConsumerProductTypes, etc, are player-only definitions.  In other words, despite the fact that an AI-controlled Boarine faction will never produce broadcasts, and player-controlled faction can produce anything, so there needed to be some sort of definition of the sorts of thematic things that the Boarines would produce for the players.  These pink/purple text cells are only for the 8 playable races of course, since it's irrelevant for the rest.


Probably the next to-do for some enterprising soul is to break down a list of the sub-types of market items that we want to have.  For instance, for poetry we know from the list we need:
- Epic tales of heroism and death.
- Short unpleasant rhymes about disease and death.
- Overly-sentimental works.
- Sad songs.
- Romantic sonnets.

And I think that's all the sub-categories for poetry, unless someone thinks of some other categories that might thematically fit.  A couple of the races pull from multiple of those categories, like the Fenyn getting both sad songs and romantic sonnets, but that's not a data definition thing, that's just a code thing.  No biggie.

But for things like the MilitaryProductTypes, that is a bit less defined.  There are some obvious ones that the spreadsheet notes:
- Weapons.
- Body mods.

But then the others just list "anything and everything."  So that would include those two categories, but what other sub-categories can people think up to add?


Anyway, I think that this gets us on the road to actually being able to do something with this! :D

Thanks again for all your help, folks.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Draco18s March 19, 2015, 10:50:24 AM
Just to have fun with this point

Yep, understood.  Here's the thing, though -- are you American?  I think if you are (I am), it may skew your view somewhat.  We have a ton of TV shows, for instance, that we export to all the countries in the world.  But how many TV shows from, say, Kenya do we watch?  If Kenya had a show called Broken Bad that everyone just loved, it's entirely reasonable that's their only Broadcast export.  It's not saying that's the only TV show in Kenya by any stretch.  But the other countries all have their own culture and so forth, and this is the only TV show that actually rises to a level of notability and hops the divide.

We have an entire Oscar category for foreign films.  A whole category for films "not made in the US, which is most of them, also they don't qualify for the other categories (most of the time)."

As for non-US TV that USians watch:
A handful of shows from Canada (Continuum)
A handful of shows from the UK (Top Gear, Doctor Who)
A fair bit of shows from Mexico and a few other countries (for the Spanish language community)
All the anime we can import from Japan.  Even the crappy stuff.  We literally can't get enough of the stuff for the demand.
And oh yeah, at least one show from Qatar (Al Jazeera).  Bet you forgot that.

So yeah, we actually do import a fair amount of non-US TV material.  You may not have heard of most of it, but that doesn't mean its not there.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 19, 2015, 10:58:26 AM
Just to have fun with this point

Yep, understood.  Here's the thing, though -- are you American?  I think if you are (I am), it may skew your view somewhat.  We have a ton of TV shows, for instance, that we export to all the countries in the world.  But how many TV shows from, say, Kenya do we watch?  If Kenya had a show called Broken Bad that everyone just loved, it's entirely reasonable that's their only Broadcast export.  It's not saying that's the only TV show in Kenya by any stretch.  But the other countries all have their own culture and so forth, and this is the only TV show that actually rises to a level of notability and hops the divide.

We have an entire Oscar category for foreign films.  A whole category for films "not made in the US, which is most of them, also they don't qualify for the other categories (most of the time)."

As for non-US TV that USians watch:
A handful of shows from Canada (Continuum)
A handful of shows from the UK (Top Gear, Doctor Who)
A fair bit of shows from Mexico and a few other countries (for the Spanish language community)
All the anime we can import from Japan.  Even the crappy stuff.  We literally can't get enough of the stuff for the demand.
And oh yeah, at least one show from Qatar (Al Jazeera).  Bet you forgot that.

So yeah, we actually do import a fair amount of non-US TV material.  You may not have heard of most of it, but that doesn't mean its not there.

I think we're actually saying much the same thing.  The fact that there is a foreign films category for Oscars is pretty much making the point.  You're also only listing a couple of really major countries out of the hundreds there are in the world.  And even out of those countries, there's only a handful of shows or movies that make it over every year (and in some cases, not even every year, mainstream-wise -- India, for instance).

Really you're making my point: the broadcast exports from Qatar can be summed up by Al Jazeera when it comes to the US (I didn't forget them at all, but I also didn't know which country they came from precisely, so there is that -- I would have guessed Egypt).  So it's not like we need to have some sort of representation of the 20 children's shows from Qatar that we import and watch here, which would be overwhelming.

My point is that only a tiny fraction of the broadcast output of a given country is exported to any other given country, with the general exception of the US.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: tbrass March 19, 2015, 06:05:27 PM
snip
My point is that only a tiny fraction of the broadcast output of a given country is exported to any other given country, with the general exception of the US.

A distinction should be drawn between 'popular exports' and 'niche exports.' Any country with a media industry likely exports a lot of that industry to the US (for example.) To expats living here, that sort of thing. People are always willing to pay to get a taste of home.

For example, I read a fascinating piece about http://www.audionow.com/ a year or two ago. Cabbies could call a number and listen to a rebroadcast of news from their native land. It's now available on various smartphone apps and provides a real service to the diaspora.

While I ~could~ listen Radio Punjabi via audionow, I am not going to. I will watch the very occasional bollywood flick though. The former is a niche export, the latter a popular export (and the sort of thing that could get a 'foreign film' oscar nod if enough of us tune in.)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 19, 2015, 08:38:17 PM
Very very true!

And I suppose that's one big difference in SBR: there are no expats in that game, for a variety of reasons.  And relations between the countries are such that it's pretty much "popular or nothing."  There's also no real cultural center that the rest of the factions revolve around.  Even if you make your faction very culturally significant, and dominate some of the races that way, you're unlikely to be able to dominate all of them that way (actually, some races are completely unable to be culturally dominated, which is fine -- mixed victories are a thing).

Anyhow, so that sort of thing winds up not applying in SBR, which is I guess is where I was coming from.  I live in a pretty international area all told, so we have a lot of specialty stores that cater to specific cultures (a lot of Indian Supermarkets, etc).  In SBR there would be diversity within the faction, perhaps, but not members of one faction living in another.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 20, 2015, 01:09:14 AM


Restructuring the Market Item Structure
So, I looked at the structure you provided and tried to simplify it and make it more general. Mostly it was creating a consistent grammar that let me parse items more easily, which I can then use to figure out how to generate some item lists. For example, makePhilosophy is the same type of thing as writeFiction. So I just generalized the structure.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f6XQpB7UO0ZKUa54g_3YXf985OBHUM01deHu5ioZaT8/edit?usp=sharing
The Racial Sheet is only updated for the Auctians and Andors. If this wasn't going to be useful, I could save some time but not transposing them.
1. Split Import from Export and Make/Write
In the original system you posted you had them half split, I went ahead and tried to split them all
Each Race has import preferences (would we buy it if it was offered, e.g., Acutians - "Yes, please")
Each Race has export preferences (would we sell it, if we made it, e.g., Burlusts Guns)
Each Race has a building count (in original document it was labelled make/write)
Each Race has a interest level (in the original document this was the same as building count. I didn't create this one, but it would make sense. E.g., The Peltians might not have that many ways of making Bead Wallets, but they sure do make a bunch with what they have. They also want to buy your Bead Wallets).

2. Split off Race from Leader
If there are baseline Race Market Item preferences, then leaders can be simple differences from the typical race member. A simple weighting system (additive, multiplicative, or logged) would work here. In addition a basic template inherited by all races would set all values to 0. So that unless specified in the Racial or Leader Market Item profile, those items are ignored by that race.
Example: All the Acutian leaders love weapons. So make the weapon preference is moved to the Acutian Racial entry, and left blank in the leader entry. This reduces redundancy. Currently only item preferences and building counts are stored at the racial level, but it should be straightforward to do.

3. Combine Race + Leader values to end up with an overall Race/Leader Market item preference.

4. Market Item Variants
This is where the real part of the task lies. The rest is window dressing.
Looking at what you found for Racial Preferences it seems that each Market Item should have variants.
These variants will each have their own unique grammar frames, which will allow Pastoral Poetry and also Heroic Epics.
The variants that I came up with off hand.

Broadcast.Variants <- c("general", "news", "education", "violent", "happy")
ConsumerProduct.Variants <-c("general", "dangerous", "technological", "gadgets")
Military.Variants <- c("general", "personal.weapons", "vehicle.weapons", "personal.armor", "vehicle.armor", "personal.organic", "vehicle.organic")
Philosophy.Variants <- c("general", "dark", "trivial", "serious")
Fiction.Variants <- c("general","happy", "sad", "propaganda")
NonFiction.Variants <- c("general", "torture", "war", "applied", "basic", "organic")
Periodical.Variants <- c("general", "news", "research", "propaganda", "entertainment")
Poetry.Variants <- c("general", "positive", "romantic", "sad", "sentimental", "negative", "epic")

The general variant is used to indicate a race will deal with everything in that category (e.g., Acutians like all of the Military items). The specific weight variants are used to indicate a preference (strong, weak, avoid, whatever).

5. Variants as unique variables or fields in records
I don't have any better ideas on how to add variants than as their own separate weight category that must be created per variant. Combining them and doing some sort of grep sounds like a nightmare. The name system could also use some cleaning, along with tense and plurality unification.

6. Races & Names
It seems easiest to incorporate personal names into the grammar Frames based upon the race generating an item.

Example of some weights in action
So Boarines are only interested in weapons, but they both buy and sell. They would have
Racial.Export.Military.Variant.person.weapons = 1
Racial.Import.Military.Variant.person.weapons = 1
Racial.Export.Military.Variant.vehicle.weapons = 1
Racial.Import.Military.Variant.vehicle.weapons = 1

Chak the Acutian leader doesn't believe in importing knowledge.
Leader.Import.NonFiction.general = 0
Leader.Import.NonFiction.torture = 0
Leader.Import.NonFiction.war = 0
Leader.Import.NonFiction.applied = 0
Leader.Import.NonFiction.basic = 0
Leader.Import.NonFiction.organic = 0

I could also see a Leader/Racial.Overall.Nonfiction tag (I didn't specify it in the provided spreadsheet).
For example, the Thoraxian Queens aren't interested in your thoughts or sharing hers.
Racial.Overall.Nonfiction = 0
Racial.Overall.Fiction = 0
Racial.Overall.Broadcast = 0
Racial.Overall.Poetry = 0

The factors would all be combined (multiplicatively, additively, logged) to create the final AI guiding values.
Racial.Overall.Nonfiction * Leader.Import.Nonfiction.general * Race.Import.Nonfiction.general
Racial.Overall.Nonfiction * Leader.Export.Nonfiction.general * Race.Export.Nonfiction.general[/list][/list]


Other
I've been consider how to weight words per characteristics of races. I think this only matters to nouns. It also may be limited to a specific subset of grammar frames. In a heavy handed approach we just assign each race a list of prefered words, e.g., Burlusts get aggressive & violent words, the water guys get fish and water words, etc.  Alternatively, I looked into calculating semantic distances to words from racial keywords. The problem is that we'd still need to get the list of racially associated words. So we take aggression, war, battle, etc, calculate the distance between each word in a corpus and those words. Take the 100-500 most common nouns, and then use those. It might work.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 20, 2015, 09:07:20 AM
Whew, wow. :)  Mostly lots of head-nodding, but responding to specific points that need some clarification.

Market Item Types
[1] Single Bonus (similar to technology)
[2] Ongoing Bonus (similar to trade routes)

These are actually all ongoing bonuses, like a technology.  But the distinction is "does the other race permanently get it in a one-time transaction, or do you continuously supply it to them via an agreement."  And vice-versa.  You also get the same benefits in reverse.

Some Concerns with the granularity of the Market System (i.e., we want limits on the number of items)
Option 1: Items values decay over time or be replaced by subsequent research.
The Every-Other-Day Show is great for the first 10 seasons, but they want something new.
Either continue in Broadcast.news Sandwich-Report or you decide to switch over the new world of Poetry.Pastoral
Option 2: Once you trade an item, it is gone. You can't trade it ever again.
Option 3: Lots of other options.

Well, bear in mind that once you have gotten a new market item, that agreement is just there permanently.  There's no real reason for it to decay or whatever, because I feel like that adds complexity and extra fiddling.  If I'm having to restock market item trades, that gets annoying, like having it pop up and ask me to re-confirm existing trade routes in Civ 5.  In this model, it's kind of like the trade routes in Civ 5, but once you set them up they are done forever unless you decide to break them off for some reason, in which case you can then reestablish them.  But then later on more possible things to trade arrive, and you can set them up once and then forget them, etc.

With that sort of model, yes, it's possible that you might suddenly have a pile of items later on to deal with, if you weren't managing trade as you went.  That's a somewhat edge case I hope, and anyway I'm not sure that's avoidable.  If you HAVE to be on top of trade constantly from the start in order not to miss anything, that's really putting some unpleasant pressure on players to play a certain way, too.  Having those things be available when the player wants them, even if it is in unpleasant bulk later, is I think relevant.

Regarding the market item structure, that's going to take a separate post on my part, because I need to write up some things relating to that.  What you have is really good, but in a few areas doesn't fully work (for some technical integration reasons only), so I need to update the schema and do an updated post on that.  I shall return. ;)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 20, 2015, 12:51:20 PM
Whew, okay, wow.  Almost four hours later, and I have all this sorted out now. ;)

Basically I now have a grid which you can see here as the new tab NewRawGrid (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y-vvJ_7hLMjruazV3IJry2zVPfVwSC1Nx2CZpBMOhvQ/edit#gid=1410246774).

That's the data that the game now reads in in order to determine if a racial leader will import or export various goods, and if it's something created only by the player.  It also has some stuff in there about probabilities.  An explanation on that system is in the Explanation tab in that same spreadsheet.  Frankly the system is a bit funky to understand, but I did it that way because then a single integer can represent four possible pieces of data in one.

I have that importing into the game now, and it is self-checking itself against some other data based on the definitions for the alien buildings, among other things, to make sure that each race is properly matched up and able to use the data right.  I had made three mistakes in there that I fixed after running that; not bad for 1764 Excel cells. ;)

What's more important for our purposes here, however, is the new tab that I also added in that same document, CreatedBy? (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y-vvJ_7hLMjruazV3IJry2zVPfVwSC1Nx2CZpBMOhvQ/edit#gid=753561557)  That is the TLDR form of data for the grid of each race versus each MarketItemSubType (of which there are 42).  Basically each column says "can this race ever produce a MarketItemSubType of this type, either in the hands of the AI or in the hands of players?"  If the answer is yes, it says YES.

For purposes of coming up with lists of thematically-appropriate stuff, then, those YESes are the ones that should be the focus.  Anything blank is irrelevant, because you don't need to account for that race making that kind of MarketItemSubType.

Lastly, you'll note the actual final list of MarketItemSubType entries.  ptarth, I based a lot of that off what you had done, which I know was also based largely on what I did the day before.  But I did find some holes and so forth when I was actually matching this up to game mechanics, so I filled those in and now we have a fully final list.  I haven't done this yet, but I will be able to correlate individual types of bonuses to specific MarketItemSubTypes, which is great -- that way you never get a buff to vehicles on a hand weapon technology, etc.

At this point, I think we're at a place where:
1. At least one pattern needs to be defined for each MarketItemSubType.
2. Various noun, adjective, and proper noun lists need to be made for each race, and specific lists of those assigned to specific patterns.  For instance, there might be a couple of noun lists for the Burlusts, but one goes with poetry and the other goes with hand weapons.  Or whatever.  That hand weapon list might actually be shared by 7 races, who knows.  The way those are related can be extremely flexible.

And that's actually all that remains, I think.  Of course that's still a huge amount of work, but now we're to the point of actually filling in a structure for the most part, rather than designing several levels of structure. :)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 20, 2015, 12:57:16 PM
There is a second edge case for having a mass of items to deal with. If you have a large trading partner for which you then engage in war. All of the ongoing bonus trades then get put back into the pool.

Also, how many times can you trade away the on-going trade items and the one-time trade items?


Example of the Variant System using NonFiction
Variant List: general, torture, war, applied, basic, organic

General
A Burlust History of the Andors
Acutian Geopolitics
Biography of the Acutian CEO: ES92

Torture
Specimen [10221]: Swimming at Night
Prisoner [39281]: Drinking alone
Recovered Memory [24123]: Sandwich memories

War
The Battle of Swan Lake
Tactical swimming
Burlust Fortificans
A Guide to Interrogating Peltians

Applied
Chemical Sanding
Laser grafting
Nuclear Physics

Basic
Properties of Kinetics
Functional Hypothesis
The Visual System of Nixians

Organic
A Study of Neoworms
Hoofrot Review
Plasmoid index of slimes

All of this would be accomplished using frame variants. Additionally, words and frames could have weights or specific racial weights. So we'd see more Battle of <> from Burlusts and more Specimen[######][Verb][Proposition] from Evucks.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 20, 2015, 01:16:25 PM
There is a second edge case for having a mass of items to deal with. If you have a large trading partner for which you then engage in war. All of the ongoing bonus trades then get put back into the pool.

Also, how many times can you trade away the on-going trade items and the one-time trade items?

There are conditions that can make a large trading partner stop trading with you, yes.  In those circumstances, the odds of you recovering and suddenly being able to trade a lot of stuff with them anytime soon is unlikely.  Most likely your strategy is going to have changed to military or some other strategy with them, rather than economic domination.

Ongoing trade items can be traded with anyone and everyone who is interested.  However, each trading partner requires a certain amount of manufacturing capacity on your part in order to service that ongoing agreement, so you're limited in your total number of deals, period, by how many factories you have and how efficiently they are running.  Build more factories and you can send more weapons to more people, etc.

Similar things are required for broadcasts (you need tv stations), and for periodical distribution you also need facilities for that.

In terms of one-time trades, you can do those once per other faction.  If you want to give Fifty Shades of Blue to each race for the price they're willing to respectively offer, then go for it.  You trade the rights to it, or the knowledge in it if it's nonfiction, and that's the end of that.  But that doesn't stop you from turning around and doing it with someone else.

The nice thing about the trade system here is that it's based somewhat off eBay and Amazon in some respects.  You can say "what are your offers for this thing?"  And then the offers come in, sorted by the best ones first.  You might not choose the "best" one, because you're trying to butter up someone else, but still.  You aren't having to go in and out of menus endlessly to work on these sorts of trades.


Example of the Variant System using NonFiction
Variant List: general, torture, war, applied, basic, organic

General
A Burlust History of the Andors
Acutian Geopolitics
Biography of the Acutian CEO: ES92

Torture
Specimen [10221]: Swimming at Night
Prisoner [39281]: Drinking alone
Recovered Memory [24123]: Sandwich memories

War
The Battle of Swan Lake
Tactical swimming
Burlust Fortificans
A Guide to Interrogating Peltians

Applied
Chemical Sanding
Laser grafting
Nuclear Physics

Basic
Properties of Kinetics
Functional Hypothesis
The Visual System of Nixians

Organic
A Study of Neoworms
Hoofrot Review
Plasmoid index of slimes

All of this would be accomplished using frame variants. Additionally, words and frames could have weights or specific racial weights. So we'd see more Battle of <> from Burlusts and more Specimen[######][Verb][Proposition] from Evucks.

I'm not 100% following how you want to create this, algorithmically-speaking and data-structure-wise.  I get what you're after, but I want to make sure and keep the data structures simple and the rules simple.

For instance, having the following flat files:

Filename: TortureFrames (40 entries)
Filename: BurlustAngryNouns (14)
Filename: BurlustAngryVerbs (10)

Then having a rule for the Burlust version of torture stuff that says:
1. pick a random entry from TortureFrames.
2. for each occurrence of {noun}, pick a random noun from BurlustAngryNouns.
3. for each occurrence of {verb} pick a random verb from BurlustAngryVerbs.

And so on.  That right there would, in the most conservative case, lead to 5600 unique Burlust-specific Torture names.  If some of the frames used more than one noun or verb, it would be even higher.

If you wanted to have multiple sets of TortureFrames each with their own rulesets, and a percent chance that given races would choose the ruleset that includes that torture frame, then that is certainly doable.  So maybe a 60% chance that it takes the above frame, and a 40% chance that it takes a different one that is more supplicative than angry, etc.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: Captain Jack March 20, 2015, 02:28:27 PM
Fake edit: Oh wow the conversation went technical since I started typing this. Posting anyway since why not. This is in response to Chris and tbrass talking about mass and niche imports.

I don't think you need to worry about expats in SBR Chris. I do imagine that there's going to be some people who move from one race's city to others (if only because the Acutians will want to be close to their market), but SBR's premise puts an all new spin on integration issues. More to the point, expatriates are irrelevant to what you're simulating.

For a real world example, let's use Japanese cars in the US. Regardless of how popular Toyota is or how many Japanese immigrants miss the brand, the US government is not going to negotiate with Japan to import them. Corporations do that, and the government gets involved only to restrict imports when Detroit pitches a fit.

Same with cultural imports as it is finished products: corporations establish branches to bring their products across on their own terms or license them out to local distributors. Governments regulate consumer products, goods and services, governments don't work to acquire them. The exception is military grade weapons, which are hardly commercial. Governments work to secure whole markets, not individual products no matter how good.

This is a very long way of saying that since real world governments aren't in charge of getting technologies, the criteria for deciding what technologies SBR governments are interested in bringing over are going to be... alien. [won'tgetfooledagain.mp3]  ;D
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 20, 2015, 04:14:12 PM
Cheers Watashiwa. :)

ptarth: I think I actually have what I need for now; I'm going to create a first set of files for things, and then I'll go from there.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 20, 2015, 04:24:44 PM
Summarizing
There are two types of Market Items.
One-time use Market Items can be traded to everyone, once. They have a single cost to research and a single cost to trade (it may be $0).
On-going Market Item trading depends on manufacturing capacity. You will have X units of production and can use them on Y different Market Items. How much X a Market Item requires is dependent upon the Item (also, possibly racial factors and size of trading partner?).

If you "lose" a trading partner, those on-going trade deals are canceled. Your available production capacity increases due to those cancelled deals no longer consuming resources. You can do whatever you want with your "new" found excess production. You may be able to voluntarily cancel trades. One-time use Market Items are not impacted by trade deals being cancelled, you can't take them back, and they have no ongoing costs to refund.

On-going Market Item trades are dependent upon production capacity.
One-time Market Items can be traded to every other race, once.


Example of the Variant System using NonFiction
Variant List: general, torture, war, applied, basic, organic
...

Torture
Specimen [10221]: Swimming at Night
Prisoner [39281]: Drinking alone
Recovered Memory [24123]: Sandwich memories
I'm not 100% following how you want to create this, algorithmically-speaking and data-structure-wise.  I get what you're after, but I want to make sure and keep the data structures simple and the rules simple.

For instance, having the following flat files:

Filename: TortureFrames (40 entries)
Filename: BurlustAngryNouns (14)
Filename: BurlustAngryVerbs (10)

Then having a rule for the Burlust version of torture stuff that says:
1. pick a random entry from TortureFrames.
2. for each occurrence of {noun}, pick a random noun from BurlustAngryNouns.
3. for each occurrence of {verb} pick a random verb from BurlustAngryVerbs.

...

If you wanted to have multiple sets of TortureFrames each with their own rulesets, and a percent chance that given races would choose the ruleset that includes that torture frame, then that is certainly doable.  So maybe a 60% chance that it takes the above frame, and a 40% chance that it takes a different one that is more supplicative than angry, etc.

So "NonFiction.Torture" was supposed to correspond to "memories extracted from captives", which didn't make it across, however the general illustration still works, so that's fine. The general structure you proposed was consistent with what I was thinking.

The big question I was having is:
Should there be 1 file of nouns, with each noun having a weight based on certain characteristics.
WordAggressionPeaceFunAquaticPastoral
Banana.25.27.90.2
Fish.30.30.011.0.01
With word lists being created by sampling prior to generation of market items. Perhaps just once at game start, generating the market items, and then deleting the word lists once they've done their purpose.

Or should there be 1 file per trait
Aggressive Nouns
Or should there just 1 file per race


My elegant preference is the first. I think you wereadvocating the second in your previous postings. But in your most recent post, it seems you are stating a mixture of the second and third? Practically, the second seems the most reasonable choice, but I'm uncertain, and this is your baby, I'm just complaining.

As for list size, as you point out, this scales quickly. Let's pretend 50,000 variants for an item is good enough for each particular market item + race combination. This could be accomplished with only 20 frames, 50 nouns, 50 verbs for example (assuming each frame uses 1 verb and 1 noun).
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: ptarth March 20, 2015, 04:29:52 PM
ptarth: I think I actually have what I need for now; I'm going to create a first set of files for things, and then I'll go from there.

Did you want us to start generating list of frames and word lists now that you have a data structure and Item Subclasses you are happy with? Or do you have that covered? Or wait until you give an example list for us to replicate over the other races/items.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procedural generation market item name parts.
: x4000 March 20, 2015, 05:04:14 PM
Okay, whew.  What I'd like to do is actually store all of this in one spreadsheet, rather than a series of flat files.  That will be easier to keep track of, and easier to read in, and all of this is visually narrow data anyhow, so it's not like multiple tabs are even needed.  I've created a new, publicly-editable sheet here with some stuff filled in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ngsCKxrQUVM5JRxN5eN-ZnSbWaPvw9G5BKcbFARhVRk/edit?usp=sharing

I have to sign off for now (seriously this has been an all-day thing, whew), but now there's a good area to start filling things in for.  Specifically adjectives, people names, place names, and then the start of the frames.

There are also undoubtedly going to be some esoteric needs, like the ClothingNouns thing that I added.  Where it's a list of a lot of types of clothing, etc.  And then ConsumerProduct_Clothing has a couple of ways of referencing that.

The general ways of referencing the race-specific adjectives, people, and places are {Adjective}, {Person}, and {Place}.  You can also use {MyRace} to refer to the race that has made the item.

Anyway, beyond that it's going to be a matter of getting into a lot of special cases, but there's a ton of data that can already start being filled in. 50ish items for all the adjective, noun, and place columns is probably a good idea, for instance.  If we need verb columns as well, then we'll have to get that on there in some fashion, too.

It's a big job for sure!  Thanks to you guys for helping.  I wanted to get this sheet up there before you went off to the races with another one of your own, but now this is ready so we're back in business.  I likely won't be around much until Monday; until then!

Chris
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: wwwhhattt March 21, 2015, 07:33:19 AM
Are there going to be noun columns for races or item type?

Thinking of written items: even if the nouns are added there would probably be plenty of frames which have nouns written in (in order to make sure the result is dark/social/propaganda), but the extra flexibility might be worth the extra columns.

After thinking this through some more, I'm not convinced that there could be noun columns that would be much more useful than just writing nouns into the frames (still in terms of written items, where the nouns would either have to reflect the races interests and the item type, or be impossibly neutral).

A column filled with {Adjective} Wisdom, {Adjective} Thought, {Adjective} Ideas... seemed wasteful at first, but now I'm not so sure.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: Captain Jack March 22, 2015, 04:58:57 PM
I was looking at the adjective list when something occurred to me. You might consider making a distinction between player Zenith and the AI Zenith where adjectives are concerned. I remember hearing that the playable version of the Zenith would have a humanoid formfactor, but the adjectives currently being used for the Zenith are all describing their full sized computer controlled counterparts, e.g. "massive", "outsize", "towering", etc.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: ptarth March 22, 2015, 08:04:14 PM
Just a heads up, people are getting too focused on synonym lists or describing the races,  instead of words the races would use.

Let's invent names for Peltian Consumer Products: Clothes, and more specifically Socks for export to others.

Example of Items formed by words that describe Peltians and synonyms
Using the initial adjective list Chris provided we have: Limited Socks, Insignificant Socks, Poor Socks, Narrow Socks, Fat Socks, Minute Socks, Teeny Socks, Tiny Socks, or Unimportant Socks. (Chris's items were chosen because he has the best sense of humor).

Example of Items formed by words that Peltians would use to describe their own products:
Soft Socks, Natural Socks, Organic Socks, Hand-made Socks, Hemp Socks, Downy Feather Socks, Natural Glade Socks, or Woven Socks.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: Diji April 07, 2015, 06:00:55 AM
False edit: I realised while writing this post that my ideas mostly don't apply here, except maybe for a subset of the market items (namely consumer products). That said, it feels like a waste to just delete it... Maybe someone will find it interesting?

: my brain
I noticed the spreadsheet that has personality and goals for each of the races. With regards to generating names appropriate to the producing race, are you going to have a pool of words for each race and manually make sure the words included are fitting for the race, or are you going to use those racial traits like tags to determine what an item's name can be if X race produces Y item?

Like this (Heads up, just letting some stuff spill out of my head, it'll probably come out as disorganised nonsense):
{nouns}
Subjugation
Wealth
Fierce
Friendly
Peace
Technology
... and likewise for adjectives. I'm no linguist so I'm probably overlooking some crucial distinctions you'd need to have, though ultimately it depends on the needs of the name generator.
I'm not sure if you'd need to distinguish what a word can be used in (like if you don't want poems about technology to be possible, or something).

Uhhh... Upon looking over the name formats in the OP and the spreadsheet again, I might have come up with a needlessly complex method. I mean, is there really a need to have descriptive words in market item names? Not really sure why I started thinking along those lines. IRL names of things - at least media - aren't really descriptive (50 Shades of Grey doesn't sound erotic to me, anyway).

So the procedural part of name generation should probably be focused on the structure of names rather than the words used for them, like ptarth was talking about earlier in the thread. That is, items seem to already be seperated into categories so there's no need to have a list of "serious" words and "peaceful" words, since they'd probably only be used for philosophy items and maybe non fiction items, and they already have categories that will do the same job as my idea but in a simpler (easier) fashion.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: Teal_Blue April 07, 2015, 05:17:45 PM
I would really like to help here, and i am sure it will all make sense to me once i am in the game and can see it. But to be honest i am feeling rather stupid here, because i am not making any sense of this, how this parse thing works and what it is supposed to produce.

I mean don't get me wrong, i can try to make up a syntax for any of the  alien races, if i knew what you wanted, as an example, say the Burlusts all use guttural consonants for their language, that they always open with "Qua Dem La-er" which is a reference for their Deity, which is how they open all their dialogs with each other. In addition they are all self-centric and in some ways like the "Klingons" in that they continually challenge one another. This is of course just some ideas, but to be honest it is probably not anything like what you would prefer, so i am not quite sure what i am making here, or suppose to make.

Anyway, perhaps i can do something else down along the way where i can contribute and feel i am adding something worthwhile, instead of coming up with things that are really reserved for you to decide.

Anyway, thanks for listening, take care,
-Teal


: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: ptarth April 09, 2015, 01:14:30 PM


I can related to Teal_Blue's problem. The individual and place name systems have intimidated me because I don't know enough about the races. For example, are the Burlusts more like Mongolians, Japanese, or Klingons? Depending on that, it changes a lot. So I went with the brilliant strategy of working on other things.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 01:41:41 PM
Oh holy smokes, that's a much better baseline. I think I can contribute more with all of this as a base.

One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 01:47:22 PM
Okay!  Sorry for being away for so long, it's been nuts.  I finally have actually coded this into the game, and did a ton of updating today.  I see that you guys have already been busy since my work, too, heh.  I've updated the original post of this topic, but I'll repost that here just to have it:

Any questions on it, please feel free!  Or if you have questions about the races, too.

----------------

Hey guys!

So... this is a pretty huge favor to ask, sorry about this.  But if any of you have any time you'd be willing to donate, I'd be much appreciated.  And the market in the game will be that much cooler for it.

Background
The tech tree in this game is a hand-designed affair, and is ONLY used by the player races.  Your race is so far behind everyone else that nobody else needs what you're working on.

BUT!  There's a whole other section of the game called the Market, and it works kind of like a procedurally-generated tech tree.  It's more randomized than that, but you can affect the outcome of what you're "unlocking" in various ways.  And you can then trade those things away even if you don't find them really useful for yourself.  And you can trade for things that other races invent as time goes on.

In order to really make this shine, that involves having each market item come up with a cool procedurally-generated name.  I have the framework for that in place, and as of the 4/9 update it's going pretty swimmingly (thanks in huge part to your help).

The Krolin wrote a hilariously-titled piece of Dark Philosphophy entitled: "Why Do The Fatally Crabby Die?"  Seeing that show up in my inventory just made me laugh out loud.  And there were a bunch of other good ones, too.  What a difference this makes to the feel of the market!

The Task
Okay!  After much work by many talented people, we have arrived at the (current as of now) attached spreadsheet.  The actual online spreadsheet has already evolved well beyond this, naturally, even as I write this. ;)  Here's how this works:

1. There are a variety of categories of market item types, and it looks for a column with the header matching that exact name.  The types are:
    Broadcast_Comedy
    Broadcast_Sports
    Broadcast_News
    Broadcast_Education
    Broadcast_Violent
    Broadcast_Romance
    ConsumerProduct_Hygiene
    ConsumerProduct_Clothing
    ConsumerProduct_DangerousToys
    ConsumerProduct_Technological
    ConsumerProduct_Gadgets
    Military_Components
    Military_PersonalWeapons
    Military_VehicleWeapons
    Military_PersonalArmor
    Military_VehicleArmor
    Military_PersonalBioAugments
    Military_RangedWeaponAugments
    Military_BannedWeapons
    Philosophy_Serious
    Philosophy_Dark
    Philosophy_Trivial
    Philosophy_Social
    Fiction_Uplifting
    Fiction_Tragic
    Fiction_Propaganda
    NonFiction_TortureResults
    NonFiction_MilitaryTactics
    NonFiction_Politics
    NonFiction_Science
    NonFiction_Biology
    NonFiction_Technology
    Periodical_News
    Periodical_Research
    Periodical_Propaganda
    Periodical_Entertainment
    Poetry_Humor
    Poetry_Crude
    Poetry_Uplifting
    Poetry_Romantic
    Poetry_EpicHeroism
    Poetry_Angsty

2. Once it has found the appropriate column for the type of "item" being generated, it then pulls a random row from that column.

3. It then looks into that column and finds any tags (anything that starts with { and ends with } is a tag), and does a couple of things with them.

a. Special tag: {n} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 20.  I'd advise staying away from numbers and mark levels and such too much, though, because if you put that in there players will assume it has meaning when it does not.  If you want to say "A Collection of {n} Poems," that's a good use for this tag.

b. Special tag: {Adjective} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansAdjectives column, for the Andors it's the AndorsAdjectives column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

c. Special tag: {Place} -- In this case, it will look to the column for the race that is inventing this item.  So for the Skylaxians, this is the SkylaxiansPlaceTypes column, for the Andors it's the AndorsPlaceTypes column.  It then pulls a random row from the appropriate column.

d. All other tags are considered custom, and will look for a column in the spreadsheet with that same name.  So if you want to have a tag named {HiThereBob}, you would need a column with the header HiThereBob as well.  These are case-sensitive, so your capitalization matters.

5. The generator runs through this recursively until there are no more tags.  So if there are tags within tags, that is okay.  Also, if you have multiple copies of {n} or {GenericAdverb} or whatever in one name, it will pick a unique name for each instance of that tag.

Important rules of thumb:
I. If you wouldn't mind having everything in proper capitalization, that would be awesome.  It's super easy to do by just going here: http://www.textfixer.com/tools/capitalize-sentences.php  Choose "Capitalize Every Word" and paste in your entries, and bam.

II. The inventor race is something I'd prefer be apparent.  So pretty much everything should use {Adjective} or {Place} in there somewhere.  If we wind up needing to make other race-specific categories, then fine.  And I guess there can be exceptions to this.  But it's pretty nice when the race makes their own mark on things.

III. As mentioned before, the capitalization of the tags matters.  The tag name and capitalization must exactly match the header of the column to pull from.  Just re-emphasizing that. ;)

IV. Overall not having names that are ridiculously super-long is a good thing, as is not having things that seem to indicate a specific function when really the name has nothing to do with the function.  Aka "Amulet of Power Reduction" would be incredibly misleading since it might have nothing to do with power reduction.

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.

-- Most importantly, here's the actual sheet where data is to be entered at this point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ngsCKxrQUVM5JRxN5eN-ZnSbWaPvw9G5BKcbFARhVRk/edit#gid=0

Thank you very much for any help!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 01:48:31 PM
One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.

This is a really good point.  I was getting some things like "Peaceful military rangefinders" from the Skylaxians, haha.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (much updated 3/20!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
One thing that's been bugging me is that we went offtrack with the racial adjectives. We found words to describe the races instead of their products, which I think might have been the point. If no one objects I might go through to redistribute and edit what's there now, and add adjectives better suited for products.

This is a really good point.  I was getting some things like "Peaceful military rangefinders" from the Skylaxians, haha.
Actually it was the Peltians who were bugging me most. "Insignificant"? "Primitive"? Marketing 101: sell your product up, not down.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 02:01:59 PM
I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!

In other news, I had it generate 100 random item names for each of the categories for each of the races.  So... 58,800 lines in all.  Note that in a real game it would filter out duplicates, but I did not bother here.  Note also that not every race will use every type of poetry or whatever, either, but I also didn't filter that out here.  I figured it was an interesting export, at least. :)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 02:14:57 PM
I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!
Sure, internally I can see that. But there's also international appeal to consider, and I have a hard time seeing any government (or player!) bringing "Primitive Televisions" to their market. But seriously, if you like them I'll leave them in.


Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
I'm guessing that's me. I'll be filling those in momentarily, just trying to knock out the worst offending adjectives before I go off to work.

EDIT: Oh man, just took a look at the market item list. Right off the bat, the Acutian "Sweatshop Comedy Hour" actually made me spittake. These guys are going to steal the show like they did in TLF, I can already tell.

EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Pumpkin April 09, 2015, 02:56:09 PM
Burlust Broadcast_Comedy:        Fatal Comedy Hour
I know there would be a dangerous amount of !!fun!! in Burlust humour. Not browsed everything, however. Good job, guyz!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: ptarth April 09, 2015, 03:13:14 PM
I was working with numbers some and had a request.

Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal

Also, when it comes to the list, I've been the evil person adding the blank lines. I've been doing so to separate items that I think are good from those that are experimental or I consider poor. This way I don't wipe out someone else's work where my ideas go awry. I'd suggest that we all adhere to this, and that way we don't have to go back to revisions to find things that might have been lost. For the final draft we can cut it all, but this way we have backups and ways to have diverging ideas without multiple files.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 03:29:21 PM
I think that things like that are actually pretty funny, though.  The Peltians are so inept that that's just the sort of thing they'd name their stuff!
Sure, internally I can see that. But there's also international appeal to consider, and I have a hard time seeing any government (or player!) bringing "Primitive Televisions" to their market. But seriously, if you like them I'll leave them in.

I'm flexible either way.


Just added this one additional note:

V. If there is a gap of any rows in a column, there is a good chance it might be skipped.  It's not a certain thing, but once the spreadsheet reaches a row where no columns have any content -- even if more rows down south of that row have content in at least one column -- then it stops.  So leaving gaps is something to avoid when possible.
I'm guessing that's me. I'll be filling those in momentarily, just trying to knock out the worst offending adjectives before I go off to work.

Oh, it wasn't just you.  There have been holes off and on throughout this as people edit, so I just figured I'd mention it.

EDIT: Oh man, just took a look at the market item list. Right off the bat, the Acutian "Sweatshop Comedy Hour" actually made me spittake. These guys are going to steal the show like they did in TLF, I can already tell.

Haha, that is absolutely hilarious!  Man, it's a shame they don't actually export comedy.  That would be priceless. :D

EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.

I don't have any objection to splitting lists however we need to; my only concern is for the maintainability of stuff.  These are for both imports and exports, so right now the naming conventions are the same either way.  I kind of like the simplicity of that, honestly.  I dunno.

I was working with numbers some and had a request.

Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal
  • {n} <- random digit 1:9
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9
  • {XN} <- random digit 0:X

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal
  • {XYN} <- random digit X:Y
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9

Is there really a cause for that?  I have a lot of stuff on my list to do, and adding to parsing like that seems kind of counter to things being random.  I'm cool with adding other things like {n} and {N} and such to denote different ranges if need be, because that's a quick addition.  But adding semantics and ranges and sub-parsing into those items would be more work for sure.

Also, when it comes to the list, I've been the evil person adding the blank lines. I've been doing so to separate items that I think are good from those that are experimental or I consider poor. This way I don't wipe out someone else's work where my ideas go awry. I'd suggest that we all adhere to this, and that way we don't have to go back to revisions to find things that might have been lost. For the final draft we can cut it all, but this way we have backups and ways to have diverging ideas without multiple files.

Aha!  Okay, that mystery is solved. ;)  Yep, that's not a problem.  For things that are super experimental we might want to move those to another tab, potentially.  But yep.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 04:01:04 PM
EDIT2: Actually Chris, while I possibly have your attention, are these market items import/export or import only? If it's import/export we might need a separate list for player Zenith adjectives, since they're not on the same physical scale as their AI controlled counterparts.

I don't have any objection to splitting lists however we need to; my only concern is for the maintainability of stuff.  These are for both imports and exports, so right now the naming conventions are the same either way.  I kind of like the simplicity of that, honestly.  I dunno.
Actually there's a simple way of handling this: give most of the size descriptors to the Spire, who always build on massive scales, and have most Zenith market items described with technological adjectives.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 04:02:55 PM
Totally cool with that, yeah.  The other big descriptor of the zenith stuff would be "old" or "philosophical" or "wise."  Though philosophical and wise both also apply to the Yali and somewhat Evucks.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
Totally cool with that, yeah.  The other big descriptor of the zenith stuff would be "old" or "philosophical" or "wise."  Though philosophical and wise both also apply to the Yali and somewhat Evucks.
Well it's not like the Zenith have a monopoly on tech descriptions. That's shared with the Skylaxians and Evucks, so it becomes a matter of finding different ways to describe advanced technology. I'm imagining comparisons between Apple-style sleekness and post-singularity technological marvels, while the Evucks have black boxes.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 04:21:14 PM
Indeed, I agree on all three.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Draco18s April 09, 2015, 04:35:19 PM
PoetryRomantic:
"{n}0 Shades of {Adjective}"

Sorry, couldn't help myself; I can't wait for the "80 Shades of Tumultuous" from the Burlust romance scene.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 04:37:17 PM
PoetryRomantic:
"{n}0 Shades of {Adjective}"

Sorry, couldn't help myself; I can't wait for the "80 Shades of Tumultuous" from the Burlust romance scene.

Hahaha, I love it. :D
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Draco18s April 09, 2015, 05:02:35 PM
Also filled in a few other short columns.  I've had fun going "hey X and Y can combine to make something different."  E.g. "Making {ScienceName} Funny."  Because honestly, how wouldn't watch a show about petrology if it made you laugh hysterically every time.

Or making use of the racial names to get "{Race} {Science}" as a cross-cultural insight into the other species ways of looking at a given topic.

There's some really clever pairings hidden there.

(Taking the TortureNoun column and turning it into Fiction_Tragic should be easy, but I just can't get them to work, arg.  Same with MilitaryTacticsNoun! (Oh of course... "The {MilitaryTacticsNoun} {TortureNoun}"!).
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: ptarth April 09, 2015, 07:25:01 PM
: x4000
: ptarth
Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal
  • {n} <- random digit 1:9
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9
  • {XN} <- random digit 0:X

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal
  • {XYN} <- random digit X:Y
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9

Is there really a cause for that?  I have a lot of stuff on my list to do, and adding to parsing like that seems kind of counter to things being random.  I'm cool with adding other things like {n} and {N} and such to denote different ranges if need be, because that's a quick addition.  But adding semantics and ranges and sub-parsing into those items would be more work for sure.
[/quote]

Not really.
The original {n} was a 1-20 random, but had limited use.
For example, I wanted to have Specimen #{NNNN} be anything from Specimen #00001 to Specimen #99999. With a 1-20 random field, it would have been Specimen #111111 to Specimen #2020202020.

It actually doesn't require any coding to do the simplest bit. We just add the field {N} and have its values be 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
That would be sufficient catch the broadest case, and is fairly trivial. So then I could just add Specimen #{N}{N}{N}{N}{N} and done.

The other {XYN} could be added if desired, but really I just wanted the ability to create an X digit long number of any value.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 07:46:01 PM
Also filled in a few other short columns.  I've had fun going "hey X and Y can combine to make something different."  E.g. "Making {ScienceName} Funny."  Because honestly, how wouldn't watch a show about petrology if it made you laugh hysterically every time.

Or making use of the racial names to get "{Race} {Science}" as a cross-cultural insight into the other species ways of looking at a given topic.

There's some really clever pairings hidden there.

(Taking the TortureNoun column and turning it into Fiction_Tragic should be easy, but I just can't get them to work, arg.  Same with MilitaryTacticsNoun! (Oh of course... "The {MilitaryTacticsNoun} {TortureNoun}"!).

Oh, super clever!  I really like how you're combining things there.  That really makes for so many combinations.

And I suppose I shouldn't have a stick up my bum about ALWAYS having the adjective or place of a race in there.  That just won't work in all cases, and I'd rather have funny names and variety over a strict adherence of that sort.  So this sort of thing that ignores the race-specific stuff is great.

: x4000
: ptarth
Currently {n} <- random digit 1-20

Proposal
  • {n} <- random digit 1:9
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9
  • {XN} <- random digit 0:X

If I can get a more versatile form:
Better Proposal
  • {XYN} <- random digit X:Y
  • {N} <- random digit 0:9

Is there really a cause for that?  I have a lot of stuff on my list to do, and adding to parsing like that seems kind of counter to things being random.  I'm cool with adding other things like {n} and {N} and such to denote different ranges if need be, because that's a quick addition.  But adding semantics and ranges and sub-parsing into those items would be more work for sure.

Not really.
The original {n} was a 1-20 random, but had limited use.
For example, I wanted to have Specimen #{NNNN} be anything from Specimen #00001 to Specimen #99999. With a 1-20 random field, it would have been Specimen #111111 to Specimen #2020202020.

It actually doesn't require any coding to do the simplest bit. We just add the field {N} and have its values be 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
That would be sufficient catch the broadest case, and is fairly trivial. So then I could just add Specimen #{N}{N}{N}{N}{N} and done.

The other {XYN} could be added if desired, but really I just wanted the ability to create an X digit long number of any value.
[/quote]

Okay, so how about I just redefine {n} to be 0-9.  Is that what you have in mind?  I can also have {n1} be just 1-9.  That way you can make sure that your number doesn't start with a 0 if you don't want it to.  So you could do {n1}{n}{n} to get a three-digit number that definitely is 100+, for instance.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 07:49:30 PM
Okay, this is now the definition (see original post also updated):

a. Special tag: {n} -- in this case, it places a number between 0 and 9.  I'd advise staying away from numbers and mark levels and such too much, though, because if you put that in there players will assume it has meaning when it does not.  If you want to say "A Collection of {n} Poems," that's a good use for this tag.

aa. Special tag: {n1} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 9.  Same notes as above.  Note that you can chain these together to make interesting longer numbers.

ab. Special tag: {nn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 99.  A bit more flexibility.

ac. Special tag: {nnn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 999.  A bit more flexibility.

ad. Special tag: {nnnn} -- in this case, it places a number between 1 and 9999.  Yet more flexibility.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
Okay, you guys were basically using these tags without them existing, so it was throwing errors.  I've now made it so that the following exist, and I've made corrections all throughout the spreadsheet and it all works. :)

d. Special tag: {OurRacePlural} -- This is the name of the race that made it.  So if it's an acutian thing, this will always say "Acutians".  If it's peltian, then it will say "Peltians" and so on.

e. Special tag: {OurRaceSingular} -- Same deal as above, except that this is singular.  So if it's an acutian thing, it says "Acutian".

f. Special tag: {OurRandomRaceLeader} -- Each race has three possible leaders, of which only one is in the game at a given time.  However, each is a good source of racial names, right?  So this picks one of the three at random.

g. Special tag: {OtherRacePlural} -- This is the name of any other race EXCEPT the race that made it.  And it's the plural version, as you might guess.  Note that multiple calls to "OtherRace<Whatever>" in an item name will NOT return the same race each time.  It may or may not.  Best bet is to only use one of the "OtherRace<Whatever>" tags in a given name.

h. Special tag: {OtherRaceSingular} -- Same deal as above, except that this is singular.  Once again, any race EXCEPT ours.  And no consistency.

i. Special tag: {OtherRandomRaceLeader} -- Each race has three possible leaders, of which only one is in the game at a given time.  This picks the name of any leader that is NOT from our race.  Again no consistency.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 09, 2015, 09:05:20 PM
So!  The fruits of everyone's labor, as of now.  All of the stuff is seemingly valid -- it's no longer throwing error messages on anything, anyway.  I had to correct a lot of stuff, but it was all pretty minor and didn't take that long.  It also led to some new tools, as my last post notes.  Anyway, you can see just how much more variety (and quality!) there is in the created names compared to what was there just earlier today.

Holy smokes folks, this is amazing. :D
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Captain Jack April 09, 2015, 09:16:17 PM
So!  The fruits of everyone's labor, as of now.  All of the stuff is seemingly valid -- it's no longer throwing error messages on anything, anyway.  I had to correct a lot of stuff, but it was all pretty minor and didn't take that long.  It also led to some new tools, as my last post notes.  Anyway, you can see just how much more variety (and quality!) there is in the created names compared to what was there just earlier today.

Holy smokes folks, this is amazing. :D

Skylaxian Military_Components:        Civilized Electromagnetic Sensors
Skylaxian Military_Components:        Honorable Sound Couplings

Hmm...  ??? Well, it's a work in progress. I'll finish up the adjectives tomorrow.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: ptarth April 09, 2015, 09:17:53 PM
Some entries that made me laugh.
Evuck ConsumerProduct_Hygiene:         Quarantine Zone Cream
Yali Military_PersonalBioAugments:        Thermal Buttocks Replacement
Peltian Military_PersonalWeapons:        Anti-Air Nuclear Bayonet
[/quote]


{OtherRacePlural} and {OtherRaceSingular} were my next wishes.

On (an)other issue(s) Chris:
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Draco18s April 09, 2015, 09:25:44 PM
Oh, super clever!  I really like how you're combining things there.  That really makes for so many combinations.

And I suppose I shouldn't have a stick up my bum about ALWAYS having the adjective or place of a race in there.  That just won't work in all cases, and I'd rather have funny names and variety over a strict adherence of that sort.  So this sort of thing that ignores the race-specific stuff is great.

Oh quite.  I also split up the materials column into two, as "Reinforced Water Bolts" didn't make a whole lot of sense.  So I broke out the solids into their own field, {StructuralMaterialNoun}.

{OtherRacePlural} and {OtherRaceSingular} were my next wishes.

Mine too.  On my way home I was like "shit, does {RacialName} mean 'race that made this' or 'the name of a race' or 'name of an individaul of that race'?"
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: Pumpkin April 10, 2015, 04:47:09 AM
On the other hand, I'm also not sure what the secondary sexual characteristics of the Spire are either.
Who told you they have two genders? Maybe only one, maybe more than two... :o
I'm sure it would be interesting to have more clues about this for each race. I mean, just clues, not details. Look, we already know that Thoraxians have Queens and that the workers/warriors are certainly asexual. And there are the robots that "reproduce" themselves by construction. But for the others, we can only make suppositions and bet they have males and females.

I would be very interested about Zenith and Neinzul reproduction.

Alternatively, where to post this kind of books?
"About {OtherRacePlural} Sexuality"
"Concerning {OtherRacePlural} Reproduction"
"Courtship Rituals Among the {OtherRacePlural}"
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: x4000 April 10, 2015, 09:09:25 AM
Skylaxian Military_Components:        Civilized Electromagnetic Sensors
Skylaxian Military_Components:        Honorable Sound Couplings

Hmm...  ??? Well, it's a work in progress. I'll finish up the adjectives tomorrow.

Sure, it's not like it's done.  But it is coming along well.  I think humor is a good component to have in these, though.  They make me look forward to seeing the new market items, because the items might make me laugh.  With that in mind, I added "Self-Righteous" to the Skylaxian list.  Honorable Sound Couplings just sounds kind of odd, but Self-Righteous Sound Couplings is freaking hilarious to me. :)

Some entries that made me laugh.
Evuck ConsumerProduct_Hygiene:         Quarantine Zone Cream
Yali Military_PersonalBioAugments:        Thermal Buttocks Replacement
Peltian Military_PersonalWeapons:        Anti-Air Nuclear Bayonet
[/quote]

Oh goodness, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.  We need to start compiling a "best of" market names list.  In fact, I'm starting to make a personal list now.

{OtherRacePlural} and {OtherRaceSingular} were my next wishes.

Nice. :)

{OtherRacePlural} and {OtherRaceSingular} were my next wishes.
[/quote]

I didn't personally have a use for it, so I moved it.  But if you want to use it in stuff, by all means please do so.  I'm not saying "no that can't be there" on anything (that isn't profane or just outright out of character for the game or misleading about game mechanics).

  • Oh, also, did you check the conjugations of the Alien Race Plurals? I made them up a while back and never found out if they matched what you were thinking?

I missed that.  But the values for those are presently:

<ln id="Race_Acutians_Name">Acutian</ln>
<ln id="Race_Acutians_NamePlural">Acutians</ln>
<ln id="Race_Acutians_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown CEO</ln>
<ln id="Race_Andors_Name">Andor</ln>
<ln id="Race_Andors_NamePlural">Andors</ln>
<ln id="Race_Andors_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Minister</ln>
<ln id="Race_Boarines_Name">Boarine</ln>
<ln id="Race_Boarines_NamePlural">Boarines</ln>
<ln id="Race_Boarines_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Regent</ln>
<ln id="Race_Burlusts_Name">Burlust</ln>
<ln id="Race_Burlusts_NamePlural">Burlusts</ln>
<ln id="Race_Burlusts_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Warlord</ln>
<ln id="Race_Evucks_Name">Evuck</ln>
<ln id="Race_Evucks_NamePlural">Evucks</ln>
<ln id="Race_Evucks_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Councillor</ln>
<ln id="Race_Peltians_Name">Peltian</ln>
<ln id="Race_Peltians_NamePlural">Peltians</ln>
<ln id="Race_Peltians_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Speaker</ln>
<ln id="Race_Thoraxians_Name">Thoraxian</ln>
<ln id="Race_Thoraxians_NamePlural">Thoraxians</ln>
<ln id="Race_Thoraxians_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Queen</ln>
<ln id="Race_Skylaxians_Name">Skylaxian</ln>
<ln id="Race_Skylaxians_NamePlural">Skylaxians</ln>
<ln id="Race_Skylaxians_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Senator</ln>
<ln id="Race_Zenith_Name">Zenith</ln>
<ln id="Race_Zenith_NamePlural">Zenith</ln>
<ln id="Race_Zenith_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Golem</ln>
<ln id="Race_Neinzul_Name">Neinzul</ln>
<ln id="Race_Neinzul_NamePlural">Neinzul</ln>
<ln id="Race_Neinzul_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Youngling</ln>
<ln id="Race_Spire_Name">Spire</ln>
<ln id="Race_Spire_NamePlural">Spire</ln>
<ln id="Race_Spire_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Spirecraft</ln>
<ln id="Race_Krolin_Name">Krolin</ln>
<ln id="Race_Krolin_NamePlural">Krolin</ln>
<ln id="Race_Krolin_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Master</ln>
<ln id="Race_Fenyn_Name">Fenyn</ln>
<ln id="Race_Fenyn_NamePlural">Fenyn</ln>
<ln id="Race_Fenyn_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown Cardinal</ln>
<ln id="Race_Yali_Name">Yali</ln>
<ln id="Race_Yali_NamePlural">Yali</ln>
<ln id="Race_Yali_NameOfUnknownLeader">Unknown King</ln>

  • Are you wanting {Periodical_Propaganda} to be pro-propaganda? I had the basics of some Anti-{OtherRace} Forms and they were nuked.

I'm open to either.  I probably nuked your other ones because you were doing "anti-ourselves" propaganda, and so when I saw the wrong form I deleted it.  I later renamed RacePlural to be OurRacelPlural since I figured that was not clear.  Then later I figured "what the heck, I'll add the OtherRace" stuff.  But by then I probably already nuked your entries.  Sorry about that!

  • Would changing {Adjective} to {RacialAdjective} interfere with things?

Yeah, that's a good idea.  Much clearer that way, especially for new folks.  I've changed that, as well as RacialPlace.  I'll update the documentation shortly.

  • I didn't notice you had fixed up the {n} system in your flurry of posts. That sounds great. {OurRacialLeaderName}{ThankfulPhrase}.

My pleasure!

  • Tag plurality? Should we leave it alone or should we make all tags singular? (e.g., BoarinesPlaceTypes => BoarinesPlaceType =? BoarinePlaceType)?

Please change no tags that are official ones!  The game looks for those based off of internal enum values, and if you "fix" those, you break them. ;)  The internal enum uses whatever the tag says, and it's usually plural, so the naming makes little sense semantically but is how the game combines the text to find it.  It's not seen by users anyhow.

As for tags that are custom, I think keeping things singular does make good sense, and I made a lot of such adjustments.  But again that's just a "for our OCD pleasures" sort of thing. ;)

  • {BodyParts} I left the Groin, Buttocks, Nipple in the list. I'm not sure if you want to avoid the potential controversy. The humor is prevalent. On the other hand, I'm also not sure what the secondary sexual characteristics of the Spire are either.

Yeah... not to be prudish, but some people will be playing with their kids around (I will be).  I removed Groin and Nipple, but left Buttocks.  Kids have a monopoly on potty humor as it is. ;)  I also added a variety of body parts from other kinds of animals (noted in a comment on the sheet).

  • Noun Agreement/Plurality. Looking through the lists we are having major issues with noun plurality, either the nouns are plural and are in singular frames or vice versa or needing an appropriate article (e.g., 657 Tales of Wonderfully Bulky Cave(s), A Life Lived In (a/the) Citadel(s)). Care to make a Word of God Statement to direct behavior?

This is one of those situations where we really run into the limits of computer-generated stuff.  I would say that all of the place names for the races should be singular, and anything that references {RacialPlace} should do so with "the" instead of "a" or "an."  Because "the" or "that" or whatever work with pretty much anything.

Tales of The Wonderfully Bulky Cave
Tales of That Wonderfully Bulky Cave
A Life Lived In The Citadel
A Life Lived In That Citadel

If there is interest in having two lists -- one singular and one plural -- for each race, then feel free to set that up and I can make the game recognize those.  The tag would be {RacialPlacePlural}.  And the columns would be the same as the regular place names, but with Plural at the end.  I'd suggest keeping the plural column for each race right next to the singular one, rather than having all the singulars and then all the plurals.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 10, 2015, 09:51:02 AM
Speaking of plural nouns, I've added a few entires along the lines of "{GenericNoun}s" and just pluralizing using a static "s."  I recognize that it isn't perfectly accurate, but that writing something that's accurate is HARD in English.

Also, we may want to trim the list of generic noun/verb/adjectives.  "Attempt" is in both the verb and noun list, for example.  The noun list also contains "Apple" and "Apples" (along with "Ball"/"Balls," but just "Bath").  The lists are staggeringly huge, however.  The GenericVerb list goes down to row 1013! (Speaking of, I'll just trim the 30 or so empty rows after it, its unlikely they'll be needed and tend to slow my browser down when the sheet gets unnecessarily big)
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/9!).
: ptarth April 10, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
On the other hand, I'm also not sure what the secondary sexual characteristics of the Spire are either.
Who told you they have two genders? .....

Secondary sexual characteristics refer to not the number of genders, but the nonprimary sexual characteristics. Typically easily identified visual characteristics believed to be used in mating rituals. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sex_characteristic

Alternatively, where to post this kind of books?
"About {OtherRacePlural} Sexuality"
"Concerning {OtherRacePlural} Reproduction"
"Courtship Rituals Among the {OtherRacePlural}"

NonFiction_Science? Broadcast_Education? Periodical_Entertainment?

: X4000
... add RaceTypesPlural...

I added the columns and started the process. I've been checking that the source word is singular (or converting it) and then pluralizing the new lists. If someone wants to finish the job, I'm not going to complain.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 10, 2015, 10:41:44 AM
By the way, don't be afraid to leave comments on entries to make it clear your intent, especially if you're trying to correct an entry to fit a new schema.

I had added "{RaceName} Xeno{Science}" yesterday (before we had our-race / other-race distinctions) and found it as "{OurRace} Xeno{Science}" a few minutes ago.  "Xeno" means "other" or "foreign" and typically when dealing with the sciences it refers to the science of aliens.  So I had to correct it to "{OtherRace} Xeno{Science}" and I was pretty sure I'd made that same correction last night as well: It's a publication from one race about a foreign race.

I had to do a similar thing to the materials list, where someone shoved all the generic materials back into the separate "structure materials" list I'd made to make the distinction between "it's made of something" stuff and "it stands on its own" stuff.  Yes, it allowed for a cleaner use of the "structure adjectives" (fiber, composite, alloy) list, but completely broke the point of a separate list.

Mystcraft has several material types (http://binarymage.com/wiki/doku.php?id=writing:symbols#materials), because any given structure can only be composed of materials that make sense for that structure.  You can't make lakes out of solids, crystals out of wood, or floating tendrils of sand, and that was the distinction I was trying to make so we don't end up with "Gas Buckles" and "Water Armor": {AnyMaterial} contains {StructuralMaterial}, not the other way around.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: x4000 April 10, 2015, 11:02:11 AM
I totally agree with the problem of pluralizing the nouns.  We may need to have separate lists for singular and plural nouns, much as that pains me.  Because just putting an "s" on the end is going to lead to endless bug reports, I just know it.

In terms of trimming those lists of nouns and so forth, I'm all for it.  There is definitely some unneeded stuff in there, and we have plenty of items that volume of stuff isn't as important as quality of stuff at this stage (in those particular lists).
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 10, 2015, 12:22:49 PM
New columns added for the GenericNouns and GenericNounsPlural, leaving the old one as LegacyNouns (with a back-reference for legacy support until the new columns feel full).

Pull anything that would make a good noun object from Legacy and drop it into GenericNouns and then Pluralize it in GenericNounsPlural.

Note any existing usage, such as the TV show "The {GenericNounPlural} Beyond" (which I created the other day as a kind of reference to the game title, e.g. "The Stars Beyond") and "Journey To The {RacialPlace} Of {GenericNoun}" e.g. "Journey to the {City} of Gold."  Some won't make the best sense, but at least we can avoid the really weird ones like "The Baby Beyond" and "Journey to the {City} of Expert."

Added emotion noun/adj/adv columns.  Those words were under the GenericNoun and I'm sure someone will find a use for them, likely philosophy.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth April 10, 2015, 04:59:48 PM
I made all LegacyNouns singular and all LegacyNounsPlural plural. I don't want to do that again.  :'(

Also, I've been adding thematic noun label lists for various things, (e.g., rocks, insects, etc). The initial idea was they would be useful for flavoring items, e.g., the Thoraxians have Mantis Assault Vehicles and use the Mosquito Air to Air missile system, while the Spire use Marble Defense Drones and Obsidian Ionic Plasma Weapons. I see they've already been used for other things, which is fine. I was attempting to fill in more lists to characterize our races.

Acutians Nicknames: Business Buzzwords (Synergize, Merger, Alignment, Generation, Organic Growth, etc)
Andors Nicknames:   Zen or Buddism
Boarines Nicknames:    Movie Monsters
Burlusts Nicknames:    Russian, Mafia, or Animal Predators
Evucks Nicknames:   Bacteria, Virus, or Parasites
Fenyn Nicknames:   Mammals
Krolin Nicknames:     Crustaceans, Marine Animals
Neinzul Nicknames:   Swarm
Peltians Nicknames:   Birds
Skylaxians Nicknames:    Moralities
Spire Nicknames: Light
Thoraxians Nicknames: Insects
Yali Nicknames:   Religious Zeal
Zenith Nicknames:  Organic Chemicals or Cellular Mechanisms and Parts

Also, since I keep forgetting, the planet is called: Ivoria
Anyone want to help me fill in the gaps with nickname themes if not lists?

Also, Draco's work with Materials got me to thinking that we could further distinguish the Races by Materials they use.
For example, the Peltians would be working with fibres and iron, whereas the Skylaxian would focus on Nano-Forged Carbon and Plascrete,etc.
Thoughts?
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: x4000 April 10, 2015, 05:18:12 PM
Whew, wow!  That's a quite impressive feat.  I am happy to work with nickname stuff as needed in terms of coding it in.  Just let me know!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Captain Jack April 10, 2015, 05:23:31 PM
Anyone want to help me fill in the gaps with nickname themes if not lists?
Tomorrow, sure. Work and socialization today.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth April 12, 2015, 04:43:56 AM
I've been cleaning up the lists, working on conjugation agreement, tag correction, and other maintenance.  To do so I've written up a script similar to the one Chris is using to generate items and used it to generate items. It is mostly done, but it sufficient to generate some check lists that are slightly less intimidating the ones Chris has been posted. Here is a list of things that I've got on my list of things to do. If anyone has time and wants to contribute, but doesn't know where to start, here is good.

To do List

Chris's List

Questions
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 13, 2015, 10:20:15 AM
Emotion list filled in.  There are probably some emotions (derived words based on the more pureized form) missing, but the spectrum is broadly covered, pulled from the Plutchik Wheel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion#/media/File:Plutchik-wheel.svg).  I had a devil of a time conjugating all of them to adjective and adverb forms, most notably with "terror" because "terrific" is wholly the wrong meaning.  In the process I learned more about English, which I will promptly forget later (such as the "-able" suffix).

Also added a few more words to the generic noun list.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: wwwhhattt April 13, 2015, 11:20:40 AM
This is a reply to something on the "Philosophy (consider checking me out!)" sheet - having a conversation there looked like it would become a bit convoluted, layout wise. The first three lines are from the sheet:

"Not A philosophy expert by Any means - what qualifies As social/trivial philosophy?"
"I'd've thought of trivial philosophy as pop philosophy - catchy titles should work"
"Problem being this changes with the ebb and flow of time. Todays established philosophy is tomorrow's triviality."
"Understanding trivial as pop was looking at the difference between serious and trivial as a difference between the target audience. So the content could be the same, but it would be presented differently (serious for academics, trivial for the casually interested)."


On a disused note, I was thinking of using {WeaponModificationAdjective} {GenericEmotionNoun} for trivial philosophy, but it's hard to imagine the Andors or Peltians having much interest in military stuff. Armour-Piercing Acceptance would've been fun.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 13, 2015, 11:24:06 AM
On a disused note, I was thinking of using {WeaponModificationAdjective} {GenericEmotionNoun} for trivial philosophy, but it's hard to imagine the Andors or Peltians having much interest in military stuff. Armour-Piercing Acceptance would've been fun.

Actually, that sounds awesome.  I don't care what race writes that book.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth April 13, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
As I see it, there are two immediate options.

Also, while people are around, can you guys take a look at the RaceFlavor tab and see if you can add any details. I've been trying to flesh things out since Chris wanted more racialflavor, but I've come to the conclusion I know very little about the races.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 13, 2015, 03:13:59 PM
Every time I go into this sheet I find I need/want a new collumn. XD
I just added GenericVerbPresent, to complete the infinitive, past tense, and generic, which resolves the issue I created by doing "{GenericVerb}ing"

But now I find that GenericAdjective comprises two or three different types of adjectives!  That is: some nouns have two different adjectives associated with it that have very different meanings: an object that causes that descriptive, an object that is that descriptive, and an object that can be the descriptive.

E.g. "the distracted guard" vs. "the distracting gaurd" vs. "the distractible guard"!
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: wwwhhattt April 13, 2015, 04:42:38 PM
Would it be possible to use item names in the names of other items, for instance 'The Use Of {Generic Adverb} {Racial Adjective} {Military_BannedWeapons} In {Broadcast_Education}'?
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth April 13, 2015, 05:57:03 PM
Every time I go into this sheet I find I need/want a new collumn. XD
I just added GenericVerbPresent, to complete the infinitive, past tense, and generic, which resolves the issue I created by doing "{GenericVerb}ing"

But now I find that GenericAdjective comprises two or three different types of adjectives!  That is: some nouns have two different adjectives associated with it that have very different meanings: an object that causes that descriptive, an object that is that descriptive, and an object that can be the descriptive.

E.g. "the distracted guard" vs. "the distracting gaurd" vs. "the distractible guard"!

Amen.

Would it be possible to use item names in the names of other items, for instance 'The Use Of {Generic Adverb} {Racial Adjective} {Military_BannedWeapons} In {Broadcast_Education}'?

It is. You can see examples of it already in the Tags.


After browsing these lists so much, it is hard to make me laugh. However, I still find Peltians with nuclear weapons hilarious. I present to you:
Homey Uranium Grip Replacement - Its the equivalent to a pearl-handed revolver in humans.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 13, 2015, 06:24:15 PM
Would it be possible to use item names in the names of other items, for instance 'The Use Of {Generic Adverb} {Racial Adjective} {Military_BannedWeapons} In {Broadcast_Education}'?

I was doing stuff like that all over the place.  It makes things muuuch more interesting when you can combine subjects.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 14, 2015, 03:31:32 PM
I need an intervention.

(http://s16.postimg.org/nf6tr33hh/Capture.png)

Or we're going to end up with a noun/plural/verb/adjective/adverb form of every single imaginable category.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth April 14, 2015, 05:25:23 PM
I need an intervention.

(http://s16.postimg.org/nf6tr33hh/Capture.png)

Or we're going to end up with a noun/plural/verb/adjective/adverb form of every single imaginable category.

I've been having similar problems. To curve it, I've been focusing on making sure that there are sufficient "decent" items for every single race/item combination. Once we have that, then we can go overboard with the other lists. Assuming Chris has this automated, as long as we can keep the tags clean, it shouldn't be a problem.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 14, 2015, 07:45:44 PM
Oh, I've been fleshing out the various lists when I can.  I tripled the size of the "banned military tech adjective" list today.

But that specific column expansion was so that I could get some more interesting TortureNonfiction items.  I was too hamstringed by having only nouns to work with.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: PokerChen April 17, 2015, 03:49:18 AM
May I clarify that the game can draw a particular entry multiple times in a game?

For example, say I write
{BannedAdjective} ribald fantasies of {OurRacialLeader}
It's possible that this item will be created multiple times, which is not very good?
As opposed to
{MediaSuffix} {MediaSuffix}
Which can be repeated N times without problems.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Endymion April 17, 2015, 04:55:09 AM
I think so but it does prevent duplicates afaik, so if you removed the {BannedAdjective} it shouldn't appear too many times(I assume you meant {OurRandomRacialLeader}).
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Draco18s April 17, 2015, 08:31:59 AM
May I clarify that the game can draw a particular entry multiple times in a game?

Chris mentioned that exact duplicates are suppressed in the game, yes.
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: Claive May 13, 2015, 03:47:43 PM
Place Types
Waste Reclamation Facility

Place name?
{0} Assembler
(Energy/Adjective) Accumulator
(Energy/Adjective) Harvester
(Energy/Adjective) Distiller

{0} Hive

ConsumerProductGadgetNoun
{Energy Adjective} Screwdriver

InsectNoun
Caterpiller
Cocoon

GunPartNoun
Trigger
Barrel
Assembly

Energy Adjective
Cosmic
Solar
Geo
Psionic
Resonance
Acoustic
Exotic

WeaponModificationAdjective
Flack
Chaff
Smart
Automatic
Incendiary
Low Quality
Precision
Silenced
Adaptive

PersonalArmorNoun
Suit

StructuralMaterialNoun
Bone
Vatflesh
Fungalplex
(InsectNoun) Wax
(InsectNoun) Resin
(InsectNoun) chittin
Bioengineered (InsectNoun) chitin
Bioengineered (InsectNoun) Wax
Bioengineered (InsectNoun) Resin

StructuralMaterialAdjective
Space

NonSolidMaterialNoun
Aether

VehicleArmorNoun
Coating
Superstructure
Substructure

BodyPartNounSingular
Eye

PersonalWeaponNoun
Saw
{Energy Adjective} Ray
{Energy Adjective} Death Ray
{Energy Adjective} Projector

Military_PersonalBioAugmentNoun
Treatment
Training
Exercise

BannedAdjectives
Heretical
Controlled
Restricted
Unethical

TortureNoun
“Guest”
: Re: Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).
: ptarth May 14, 2015, 01:25:53 AM
re:Claive - Add them to the list

General Update
I filtered and cleaned the current items on the list.
To make things easier on my formatting code I comment each questionable item with #.