Request for crowdsourcing help: procgen market item names (huge update 4/10!).

[Zebeast46]

On the broadcast randomly generated words I saw the words de and da, not sure if that was intentional but you know

[TheVampire100]

I have some new ideas for formats:

Consumer Products

{0} Chips
{0} Game
{0} Food
{0} Clock
The {0} movie
{0} Candy
{0} Cake
{0} Screen
{0} Tissues
{0} Metal
{0} Cocktail
{0} Material
{0} Music

Broadcasts

{0} TV
{0} Radio
About {0}

Military Inventions

{0} Bomb
{0} Missile
Ballistic {0}
{0} Blade
{0} Ammunition
{0} Projectiles
Orbital {0}
{0} Device
Massive {0} Cannon
{0} Vehicle
{0} Wiring
Imrpovised {0}

Writing

I think writing would better work with 3 different lists or at least two. It would first pull a name from the list with names like it is now. A improved versionw ould be, that it differ between first name and last name.
The other list would check for a title of the book. Soemthing like this:

{0} {1}'s {2}

That way you could guarantee a wider area of different names.

[ptarth]

Took a look at the Philosophy list. As wwwhhatt noted, the list is divided into names and concepts. There is a further divide in to *ology, *ism, and *.
I went through and sort into names and concepts in the google docs file labelling names with 2 and concepts as 1. The majority of the list is concepts.

As an alternative I stripped some lists of philosophy terms and grabbed a list of scientist names. Using that along with the already proposed list of philosophy frames, we generate a sample such as:

Code: [Select]

  [1] "In Defence Of De Dicto And De Re"              "Collected Work Of Potter"                      "In Defence Of Mimesis"                       
  [4] "Information Through History"                   "In Search Of Value"                            "Collected Work Of Diesel"                     
  [7] "The Interpellation Of Substantial Form"        "The Origins Of Disciplinary Institution"       "Thinking Through Concept"                     
 [10] "Haber, The Basic Works"                        "The Classics Of Eudaimonia"                    "A Critique Of Harmony"                       
 [13] "After Cartesian Self"                          "Understanding Sattva"                          "An Enquiry Concerning Material Cause"         
 [16] "Notes On Thrownness"                           "Final Cause On Trial"                          "Artificial Condition Of Possibility"         
 [19] "Class Philosophy"                              "Gauss Simplified"                              "Collected Work Of Hilbert"                   
 [22] "The Wisdom Of Norm Of Reciprocity"             "On Unity Of The Proposition"                   "An Enquiry Concerning Moksha"                 
 [25] "The Quality Problem"                           "Khan On Trial"                                 "In Defence Of Dwelling"                       
 [28] "Empirical Relationship"                        "The Essence Of Moksha"                         "In Defence Of Formal Theorem"                 
 [31] "The Hate Speech Of Bosch"                      "On Telos"                                      "Anthropic In The Present Age"                 
 [34] "Reform In The Present Age"                     "The Maya Of The Future"                        "Understanding Kathekon"                       
 [37] "After Sense Data"                              "The Essence Of Presupposition"                 "Artificial Gemeinschaft And Gesellschaft"     
 [40] "Style On Trial"                                "In Defence Of Om"                              "The Wisdom Of Desiring-production"           
 [43] "Landsteiner Simplified"                        "Semantics Philosophy"                          "The Immanent Critique Of Conjecture"         
 [46] "The Formal Theorem Of Nature"                  "The Telos Of Copernicus"                       "The Distributive Justice Of The Future"       
 [49] "Dispositional And Occurrent Belief Philosophy" "The Way Of Choice"                             "Notes On Pratyabhijna"                       
 [52] "Quality Through History"                       "A Treatise On Intellectual Responsibility"     "Advanced Molina"                             
 [55] "Jus Sanguinis Collections"                     "The Foundations Of Aesthetic Emotions"         "Notes On Diksha"                             
 [58] "The Vamachara Principle"                       "Percept On Trial"                              "The Magnificence Of The Future"               
 [61] "The Search After Choice"                       "A Treatise On Conscience"                      "The Classics Of Notion"                       
 [64] "In Defence Of Wrong"                           "A Treatise On Magnificence"                    "On Camp"                                     
 [67] "The Kalachakra Problem"                        "Against Sortal"                                "The Foundations Of Dhyana"                   
 [70] "The Pattern Of Presupposition"                 "Against Composition Of Causes"                 "In Defence Of Arborescent"                   
 [73] "The Duty Principle"                            "The Pneuma Of The Future"                      "The Wisdom Of Property"                       
 [76] "Bernard Simplified"                            "Notes On Gricean Maxims"                       "The Way Of Antinomian"                       
 [79] "An Enquiry Concerning Avant-garde"             "Existence In The Present Age"                  "Artificial Empirical Research"               
 [82] "The Origins Of Epistemic Virtue"               "The Abstract Object Of Norm Of Reciprocity"    "On Idea"                                     
 [85] "After Eupraxis"                                "The Origins Of Objectivity"                    "On Ti"                                       
 [88] "The Search After Disgust"                      "An Enquiry Concerning Peripatetic Axiom"       "Posthegemony Through History"                 
 [91] "In Defence Of Zeitgeist"                       "Name Philosophy"                               "In Defence Of Category Of Being"             
 [94] "Collected Work Of Aristarchus"                 "A Treatise On Subject"                         "What Has Simulacrum Ever Done For Us?"       
 [97] "Artificial Identity"                           "The Qualia Problem"                            "The Nonmaleficence Of The Future"             
[100] "Nakaya Simplified"

They sound pretty good. I note some plurality conjugation issues (e.g., "On Idea"), but it is still pretty good.

Attached are the data lists I used. An expanded philosophy frames, a list of scientist names, a list of philosophical concepts, a list of mythical names, and a list of greek mythical names.

[Teal_Blue]

a number of your entries for the first list, are names and i was thinking it would be interesting if there were names from many different cultures, african, irish, celtic, russian, norwegian, native american indian, welsh, scottish, dutch perhaps? Anyway, i found a site, SheKnows  and there are a lot of listings. Will try to compile some and add them to the document? Or would you prefer just the suggestion and you can make the call on whether or not to add them?

-Teal

http://www.sheknows.com/baby-names/

[ptarth]

One of the problems with the names is that they are all Earth Names. So they aren't going to work for the alien species, unless George is more common intergalactically that I had imagined.

[Teal_Blue]

good point!

I can make some up, but is there a preferred spelling or character format for the races?

Like

Krg... in some combination for the Burlusts?   (Kreegar)

Numbers... for the machine races    (Din Lee-7721)

Apostrophe's...  (T'Lir)

Or

a race that always uses a certain letter to start names... like say 'S'
So we have names like...
Saren, Sael, Soroth, Salon, or Sterek, or Skierra, etc...

I could if you have an idea of a format you want, or if you want me to make up the format that is cool too.

Thanks,
-Teal

[wwwhhattt]

a number of your entries for the first list, are names and i was thinking it would be interesting if there were names from many different cultures, african, irish, celtic, russian, norwegian, native american indian, welsh, scottish, dutch perhaps?

Connected to this, I was adding in some Indian and Arabic people and concepts to philosophy, and often the transliteration uses accents and related things (e.g.  ?a?kara). Would they be usable, or should we stick to plain letters?

Edit: And the forum illustrates my question? Thanks forum!
(It was a copy&pasted name from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concept-emotion-india/ )

[Teal_Blue]

With regards your question to use the accents or plain letters? My guess is the accents make for all the interesting differences, or at least a lot, however not everyone is going to have a computer that can maybe show those cool accent symbols, so.... maybe plain is better? Or have both, but that may be a bear to have different folders with the same data, just one with accents?

Anyway, i'll put a list together, of ideas for the races, oh, we have a list of all the races in the game on this forum right?

Thanks!
-Teal




p.s.   just a quick thought... names and religions, perhaps even governments can be referred to by alien names that humans have no experience with. However, things, such as trees, buildings, weapons and equipment such as generators, tractors, computers, harvesters, seeders, etc... are all going to need  'translation' in order to be understood. Has anyone addressed this yet?

How do we get those items in some form that players will know what they mean when they see them?

I hadn't thought of that before and am wondering how to approach it now.

Off the top of my head there is a possibility, maybe a bad one? Like something like pig-latin? Where the words are modified versions of english words but obviously alien.

Anyway, will try with the rest of it first and see if i can make any sense of it, and post it and see what everyone else thinks.

Thanks,
T

[wwwhhattt]

List of races: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15992.0.html

There was some talk about using linguistics (in the game) to translate messages in diplomatic discussions here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16506.msg182301.html#msg182301

It was a while ago though, and I can't find anything written about it since. Maybe it will work like that, otherwise I'm assuming that everything in the market has been translated, so names would be alien but objects would be in the players language.

This thread has doubled the strength of my procrastination powers.

[Draco18s]

Broadcast addition:

{0} Edition

Your list of {0} entries seems to be populated with names ("Bill" "Steve") which still work ("Steve Edition") but doesn't seem to have other things like "Morning."  E.g. Morning Edition.

Just grabbing a chunk from the first post:

Code: [Select]

{0} Center Morning Center Steve Center
{0} Insiders Morning Insiders Steve Insiders
{0} News Morning News Steve News
The {0} The Morning The Steve
Doctor {0} Doctor Morning Doctor Steve
{0} Business Morning Business Steve Business
{0} Exchange Morning Exchange Steve Exchange
{0} Morning Morning Morning Steve Morning
Here's {0} Here's Morning Here's Steve
In Depth {0} In Depth Morning In Depth Steve
Inside {0} Inside Morning Inside Steve
That makes me think that the google doc of broadcasters is different from the name of their show and that we're missing a doc.  "Here's Steve" is a fine title for a show, but "Steve Insiders"...not so much ("Morning Morning" is a little odd, but it does work, say... "Morning, morning, gooooood morning Murica!" getting shortened down to just "Morning Morning").¹  I think you need a stronger title format, eg.
{Title} Business with {Host}
Here's {Host} with {Host}
Italics either being something that's implied (not actually textual), after a colon, a subtitle, or as part of the description.  That way you could get "Morning Edition (hosted by Steve Jones)" as one option or "Steve's Thoughts" as another.

¹And now that word looks incorrectly spelled.  Gah.

[Teal_Blue]

List of races: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15992.0.html

Thank you!

There was some talk about using linguistics (in the game) to translate messages in diplomatic discussions here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16506.msg182301.html#msg182301

Very nice, thanks again.

It was a while ago though, and I can't find anything written about it since. Maybe it will work like that, otherwise I'm assuming that everything in the market has been translated, so names would be alien but objects would be in the players language.

Sounds reasonable.

This thread has doubled the strength of my procrastination powers.

Haha, i can understand. I look at the Google docs and ask myself, do i understand what they are doing here? Well, dive in and maybe it will make sense later.  Haha, anyway, i can totally relate.

-Teal

[wwwhhattt]

About alien names: the leaders in TLF are all named, is there a list of them anywhere that could be used? (And anything similar in AI War? I haven't made it out of the tutorial campaign yet)

[ptarth]

• Spreadsheet has been created with the original content and additions as I found them in the thread
• https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vz1PPip4V2UOVdsLBlh2Hm8pg-REfhsUx5F72m6bjIQ/edit?usp=sharing
• TheVampire100 provided several additional frames, but they diverged from the original frame setup to much to fit in without creating additional sections. Additionally, his proposals have received no feedback, so I refrained from implementing it.
• The primary issues seem to be:
  
  • Alien names. Does Arcen intend to have the planet filled with Bobs & Steves or should alien names be taken from tLF, AIWars, etc.]
  • Depth of Frame and Grammars. Current grammar proposals were very basic with frames not differing between content (e.g., names, concepts, and country/locations are treated identically). Parsing these seems to be reasonable but there hasn't been any suggestion from Arcen.

[x4000]

Hey guys!  I'm really sorry about completely falling off the map with this.  ptarth, thanks for the PM poking me about this.

To be perfectly honest, I don't have strong feelings on how these things come out so long as they are thematic and cool.  In other words, I don't have a really narrow definition of "oh, these must be in MLA format or Chicago style" or whatever, if we're comparing this to essays.

Basically, the general things I would say:

1. If you guys can design different grammar frames (as you put it) that we have to put into secondary lists that then get combined in new fashions, that's not a big deal at all.  Aka, if some of them need to pull nouns for {1} and verbs for {0} or whatever, that can be managed.  If it's relatively simple logic (which most sentences are), then it's not a big deal for us to implement the variants.  The hard part is getting the data more than anything else.

2. Definitely was not intending to have lots of Bobs and Steves.  I was planning on going through there and culling out all that stuff, as well as possibly coding a scrambler that mixes up the names in ways that are nice and alien.  But if you guys have alternate sources of lists that are more alien-sounding (without infringing copyright), then I am perfectly happy to completely ditch anything I'm doing there.

3. In short, I'm not super attached to anything I've done so far, as it was mostly a first-pass let's-have-something-to-see sort of situation.  I needed a way to be able to tell apart the names of market items, for sure.  But the more robust and interesting we can make this, within reason, the better.  I am pretty much blocked from working on that right now due to all the other stuff taking up my time, but I promise I will be better about actually coming here to comment.

[Draco18s]

2. Definitely was not intending to have lots of Bobs and Steves.  I was planning on going through there and culling out all that stuff, as well as possibly coding a scrambler that mixes up the names in ways that are nice and alien.  But if you guys have alternate sources of lists that are more alien-sounding (without infringing copyright), then I am perfectly happy to completely ditch anything I'm doing there.

Oh I wasn't worried about names like Bob and Steve, just that grammatically using the host's name (even if its Xerkik'iii) doesn't seem to work very well.