(From Chris): A break from our regular programming for International Incidents.

[x4000]

They actually already have unique racial lines in a lot of those sorts of cases.  But it's a matter of each race having several potential unique lines they choose from, versus having them have a unique reaction to each other kind of race.

[crazyroosterman]

now that I think about trying to work out why their not bum buddies any more would require an actual time line which would be convoluted as all hell and wouldn't really make to much séance considering that they greet each other like their meeting for the first time.(roughly)

[topper]

How about adding Unique Unitbuilding(s) for each race when under human control? This could be as small as "Krolin condos fit twice as many people" or as far as a unique wonder building for a race-specific victory condition. This could be accomplished with or without the need for modified art assets or entirely new mechanics.

Yeah, I've thought about that also.  One thing that could be done would be to kind of "player-ize" one of the alien buildings for each race, and then give that a specific function in the player race's hands.  That would both help with the visual aspect of making each city feel more race-specific (as you noted, and which I like), and get at that differing-playstyles aspect.

If you guys want to have a brainstorming thread about any and all sorts of content of that sort, I am super down for that and would be extremely grateful actually.  Many heads are better than one.

I think the most important part is that the pieces that differentiate the different races need to modify the way the player plays. That is, they should be somewhat gamebreaking if used correctly. The motivation to use them should be strong so that players are saying "I should play as the ______ this time since I am going for a ______ game".  Basically a strong driver for the player to actually use the unique race building whether it effects food/water/crime/victory/etc.

Specific victory conditions being easier as some races is fine, since there can be achievements for taking certain victory conditions with unconventional race choices or different difficulty levels.

[x4000]

The timeline is waaaay into the future, and these are not the same individuals who knew one another a long time ago.  It would be like a Greek and an Italian meeting today, except even moreso.  I don't think either of them really hold the Athenian and Roman grudges or alliances to be at all relevant; they are modern Greeks and Italians, and they judge each other based on that.

I think the most important part is that the pieces that differentiate the different races need to modify the way the player plays. That is, they should be somewhat gamebreaking if used correctly. The motivation to use them should be strong so that players are saying "I should play as the ______ this time since I am going for a ______ game".  Basically a strong driver for the player to actually use the unique race building whether it effects food/water/crime/victory/etc.

Specific victory conditions being easier as some races is fine, since there can be achievements for taking certain victory conditions with unconventional race choices or different difficulty levels.

General head-nodding here, yes.  I like being the French in AOE3 because it makes the farming so incredibly powerful.  So much so that I have a hard time playing any other country because of it, etc.

[crazyroosterman]

for some reason I keep forgetting this Is meant to be an infinity of years past those events maybe when this game is properly lored ill try and figure out how long exactly those events were ago also I'm all for the races getting to borrow one of the alien buildings per race I've even got a suggestion I came up with an hour ago the krolin under ground building that provides food and housing although with the food/housing increased if desired by chris/the other testers. ps I still wonder if ill get to find out what happened to the hydral even if its just a dusty corpse that's just bones

[jerith]

For the UI backgrounds, that's a good idea, although that's a lot of screens if we were to apply that everywhere.  If it were just for the main HUD... that might be in the realm of feasibility, not sure.

Crusader Kings has different UI chrome for different religions, which works well and has a noticeable impact on the feel of the game. I think something like that could be interesting, although it's probably quite a lot of work given how many playable races there are.

(For comparison, here are some screenshots I found of Catholic, Shia, and Norse interfaces.)

[Captain Jack]

The timeline is waaaay into the future, and these are not the same individuals who knew one another a long time ago.  It would be like a Greek and an Italian meeting today, except even moreso.  I don't think either of them really hold the Athenian and Roman grudges or alliances to be at all relevant; they are modern Greeks and Italians, and they judge each other based on that.

Grudges and alliances are a lot easier to remember when know which of your ancestors killed each other. The Italians and Greeks have interacted with one another far longer than those names lasted. There's a sense of shared history now, and the start of a shared identity depending on how they feel about the EU.

A more correct example would be your Greek and Italian meeting someone from a newly returned Atlantis. The Europeans have to deal with these people they thought were dead if not outright mythical, in their airspace, doing god knows what to their own ends.

[x4000]

@jerith: Thanks for the screens, that's useful.  I've passed those and your notes on to Blue.  We need to get one version of the interface finished before we even consider branching it, but this will at least be in the back of her mind and we'll try to make time for it.  I agree it could be way cool if we have time to pull it off.

@Watashiwa: Very good point on Atlantis.  Or how any of us feel about Mesopotamia and Babylon, even.

[kasnavada]

I think the most important part is that the pieces that differentiate the different races need to modify the way the player plays. That is, they should be somewhat gamebreaking if used correctly. The motivation to use them should be strong so that players are saying "I should play as the ______ this time since I am going for a ______ game".  Basically a strong driver for the player to actually use the unique race building whether it effects food/water/crime/victory/etc.

Specific victory conditions being easier as some races is fine, since there can be achievements for taking certain victory conditions with unconventional race choices or different difficulty levels.

General head-nodding here, yes.  I like being the French in AOE3 because it makes the farming so incredibly powerful.  So much so that I have a hard time playing any other country because of it, etc.

So you're going for "endless legend" type of specialization then ? Have you looked at that game and seen what it does ?

Because there the races play really, really differently despite having 95% of buildings in common. I can write you a summary of the differences, a brief summary of the game's rule, and how they've done, to get some more "inspiration" for SBR if you wish.

[jerith]

@jerith: Thanks for the screens, that's useful.  I've passed those and your notes on to Blue.  We need to get one version of the interface finished before we even consider branching it, but this will at least be in the back of her mind and we'll try to make time for it.  I agree it could be way cool if we have time to pull it off.

The important thing to note is that the content, layout, etc. are identical (minor differences in the CK2 screenshots are unrelated and apply to all variants). It's the same interface with a coat of paint -- or hardwood veneer, as the case may be -- applied to it. The very simple case could be just using different colours for the borders, but race-appropriate scrollwork and such would be fantastic. :-)

Shifting things around (like cockpit layouts in flight sims) is a lot more work and much less useful.

[x4000]

So you're going for "endless legend" type of specialization then ? Have you looked at that game and seen what it does ?

Because there the races play really, really differently despite having 95% of buildings in common. I can write you a summary of the differences, a brief summary of the game's rule, and how they've done, to get some more "inspiration" for SBR if you wish.

You know, I bought that game, but I just couldn't get into it yet really.  If you want to do a write-up with the goal of things that you think might be useful for this game (aka, you don't have to tell me everything, but things that you think are relevant), then I definitely won't say no!

@jerith: Thanks for the screens, that's useful.  I've passed those and your notes on to Blue.  We need to get one version of the interface finished before we even consider branching it, but this will at least be in the back of her mind and we'll try to make time for it.  I agree it could be way cool if we have time to pull it off.

The important thing to note is that the content, layout, etc. are identical (minor differences in the CK2 screenshots are unrelated and apply to all variants). It's the same interface with a coat of paint -- or hardwood veneer, as the case may be -- applied to it. The very simple case could be just using different colours for the borders, but race-appropriate scrollwork and such would be fantastic. :-)

Shifting things around (like cockpit layouts in flight sims) is a lot more work and much less useful.

Right, for sure.  In other news, I tossed that idea to Blue like I mentioned, and she just pretty much freaked out with huge amounts of excitement.   She is totally all over that idea and just chomping at the bit.  There may be more time earlier in her schedule than I thought, based on her current work list and some of the things that she is currently having to wait on me for before she can move on to other elements.  So that's something that's coming for sure!

[jerith]

Right, for sure.  In other news, I tossed that idea to Blue like I mentioned, and she just pretty much freaked out with huge amounts of excitement.   She is totally all over that idea and just chomping at the bit.  There may be more time earlier in her schedule than I thought, based on her current work list and some of the things that she is currently having to wait on me for before she can move on to other elements.  So that's something that's coming for sure!

\o/

(Now I just need to figure out how to play as the Thoraxians so I can have chitinous interface dripping with poison and egg sacs...)

[x4000]

Hahaha.

[kasnavada]

You know, I bought that game, but I just couldn't get into it yet really.  If you want to do a write-up with the goal of things that you think might be useful for this game (aka, you don't have to tell me everything, but things that you think are relevant), then I definitely won't say no!

Ok ! I was asking because some dev / people don't like to look at the competition for information - they generally say they prefer to have their own ideas rather than to be tempted to copy things that already exist. About how they made factions unique...

I know you've played Civ 5 from the forum, so I'll start from there. Basically, the game is a civ-like, with a few twists:
- a region is controlled as soon as one city is in it (irrelevant to SBR).
- unit unique set by faction. I won't talk much about units as the implementation there is irrelevant to SBR, as far as I can tell.
- there are "minor village" which give extra worker to the city in their region, empire wide-bonuses, and provide (lower) quality of another type of specialized unit (support / infantry / cavalry / flying). This is very useful because your nation starts with one type of unit, and can get 2 more, but to fill the gap you need specialized units from minor factions.
- cities can "grow" by adding districts (this seems to be an SBR possibility), the number of district is dependant on population.
- diplomacy is "paid" with influence points. The lowest the reputation you have with a faction, the more the diplomatic options cost.
- research is a wheel. When you get 8-11 (forgot the numbers) out of the 12-16 lvl 1 research, you get access to lvl 2 researches. Research costs for a new research is a variation of (X* tech lvl) + (Y* number of possessed techs), more or less.

That's the main points, IMO.


What they did next is add multiple special powers, and (still irrelevant to SBR) unique units for all factions.
Ie :
- drakken have the ability to force peace and alliance treaty. Some of the anomalies give bonus ressources (more influence to get to a diplomatic victory), and they start with the position of the capital of all other players (enabling diplomacy from turn one). Basically it's the best nation for diplomatic victory (obtained when spent influence on diplomatic agreement overtakes widely what's spend by other nations).
- cultists can only have one city, but they can convert "neutral" villages from outside their region giving them the same benefits as other have... but with potentially 30 villages instead of the max 3 per region. The cost of "growing" their city is halved compared to others (so their "single" city is generally at least 3 times as large as the next biggest one on the map), and they gain bonus from razing cities too (and they can only raze city, never build another one). It's a good option for tech / expansion victory, as the main city basically is nearly impossible to take, and gets huge bonuses out of being larger than anything else.
- necrophage have a malus to food production, can't be at peace nor at alliance state, but they units can poison (basically a death sentence early game), then zombify others later, and they regenerate everywhere (other can regenerate in friendly territory, mostly). Zombified units can also be sold for a profit if need be. Also, for them, killing stuff gives food, and the more war they declared, the stronger they are (war by opposition of cold war). They also have technologies where they sacrifice their population to give happiness, coming in handy since expansion reduces happiness, and since they can make population with the above mentionned "killing stuff gives food". Obviously, it's one of the best nation for expansion victory.
- roving clan's cities can move, the market place (where you can buy units, pack of ressources and so on) gives 8% of what all players spend to them, and also "neutral" units bought by them from the market have double the HP of other units. Also, making peace with them comes with "free" option to make commercial and tech agreement (since diplomatic have been paid, it's a huge boon actually). It's good to get the economic victory. They also can make "privateer" armies ("neutral" armies to everyone) controlled by a player, made only of non-faction specific units, which can raze enemy cities even if the "controller" is not at war with them. Which makes them quite good at back-stabbing.
- broken lords... don't use food. Actually, can't even see food. They've got a bonus to money, which they use to build population, units, building and so on. A strong competitor for the economic victory.
- vaulters... can teleport. While others have to move to defend their cities, vaulters can move their units from friendly territory to wherever is needed in a single move. They also have a bonus to science. That makes them very good at surprise attacks, good at defence, and good at a science victory.
I've not tested the other ones yet. So can't really tell.

So, basically, they made the factions unique by giving them multiple traits and different mechanics, not "just" a single bonus and one or two time-limited race-specific building or unit like done in Civ5 (apart Venice). I think the keys here are "multiple" and "massive" change from only a few rules.


As for what's relevant to SBR, I don't really know as I don't have a beta key. I'm in the list so I'll wait for when is needed (I'm in no hurry). I work a lot with comparison to what works in other games - I think it comes from reading too much, and overall lack of imagination. So I'll provide that kind of insight when I'll review the game later on.

Right, for sure.  In other news, I tossed that idea to Blue like I mentioned, and she just pretty much freaked out with huge amounts of excitement.   She is totally all over that idea and just chomping at the bit.  There may be more time earlier in her schedule than I thought, based on her current work list and some of the things that she is currently having to wait on me for before she can move on to other elements.  So that's something that's coming for sure!

That sounds great =).

[kasnavada]

Sorry, I edited stuff