Early 2015: Unnamed Terrestrial 4X...

[eRe4s3r]

Just gonna do a snipe quote here

The object of course, whether its the 64 square board, or the open space map
of a 4X war game, is to have all the spaces turned to your color.

You just explained every 4x game ever made there.... and the primary reason I hate mostly all of them is in bold.

No matter how much fluff there is between this, if the end-goal is to paint the galaxy/map in my color, the 4x fails at some basic level imo

Namely the level that is supposed to put computer games above "board games"

[Teal_Blue]

Well... i feel flattered that you read my little idea. Though, perhaps as you said if the limitation is just to take 'ALL' of the spaces on the map. Then a good 4X should strive to do different things, yes?

Do you like diplomatic wins?
Do you like draws? (seen in chess, but not so much 4X
Do you want something different? Like maybe a co-habitation, or a peace treaty where two or more sides co-exist in relative peace?
Do we want an influence win, where our cultural heritage, or the heritage of the opponent takes the game?
Wouldn't it be cool if there were 27 different ways to win a game? 

Or maybe something completely different?  I was thinking what if a game didn't have to win? Maybe its played just for the interest and elegance of the play? Haha, well... maybe chess could be that way, huh? Or maybe Go, or Soduku, I don't know about a 4x just playing for the elegance of its moves, although, that could be very cool to try to do, yes?

-Teal

[Shrugging Khan]

I for one rarely bother with the victory conditions. Either the game is fun, so I don't want it to end; or it's boring and I just quit.

Countless games of AI War, none of which I've ever won. Possibly even more of Civilization, and I can't remember winning more than maybe 5. I remember having a rather much of a passion to win in Endless Space, but only because I was so bloody angry with the game I just needed to show it who's the boss. Oh, and Dwarf Fortress...so much of it. I'm not 100% positive, but I suspect my victories in DF weren't all that many either.

So you have my blessing - toss out the victory conditions. If the game's good enough, it won't need them.

[topper]

Oh, and Dwarf Fortress...so much of it. I'm not 100% positive, but I suspect my victories in DF weren't all that many either.

What does it even mean to win DF?

In DF, you have fun until you have !FUN!, or you succumb to FPS death. There is no winning except at setting your own arbitrary goals.

[Teal_Blue]

quick question because i haven't played Dwarf Fortress, but what kinds of things are there to do, that could be way cool if brought to either TLF or the New 4X?

-Teal

[Draco18s]

quick question because i haven't played Dwarf Fortress, but what kinds of things are there to do, that could be way cool if brought to either TLF or the New 4X?

147 types of rock
7 types of coal
83 type of ore
26 species of tree
9 species of fungus that can be used as wood
and 397 kinds of insanity

[Teal_Blue]

quick question because i haven't played Dwarf Fortress, but what kinds of things are there to do, that could be way cool if brought to either TLF or the New 4X?

147 types of rock
7 types of coal
83 type of ore
26 species of tree
9 species of fungus that can be used as wood
and 397 kinds of insanity

Of course, i should have known!    Haha, i have always wanted to try DF but was a little itimidated by it. I will have to give it a go anyway.

[eRe4s3r]

Well... i feel flattered that you read my little idea. Though, perhaps as you said if the limitation is just to take 'ALL' of the spaces on the map. Then a good 4X should strive to do different things, yes?

Do you like diplomatic wins?
Do you like draws? (seen in chess, but not so much 4X
Do you want something different? Like maybe a co-habitation, or a peace treaty where two or more sides co-exist in relative peace?
Do we want an influence win, where our cultural heritage, or the heritage of the opponent takes the game?
Wouldn't it be cool if there were 27 different ways to win a game? 

Or maybe something completely different?  I was thinking what if a game didn't have to win? Maybe its played just for the interest and elegance of the play? Haha, well... maybe chess could be that way, huh? Or maybe Go, or Soduku, I don't know about a 4x just playing for the elegance of its moves, although, that could be very cool to try to do, yes?

-Teal

Someone needs to do a prototype to play and test the idea first ,) I am not convinced it would produce a game that'd sell in any kind of quantity or be fun to play for more than 1 or 2 rounds... at least when we talk about a space 4x game. There are TBS games that do things (slightly) better... XCOM for example

But yes, in the end a 4x game in space at least, is imo doing something very very wrong when it's main victory condition is "kill everything and/or ally with everyone left". These games should be more about survival and strategy having deep impact on the gameplay itself. In theory, a good space 4x game is not so much about expansion, as it is about spheres of influence and allegiances. About common goals, unique synergies between races creating opening to new victory conditions etc. About immersion and progression.

So yes, in a way there really need to be "27" victory conditions... but they should not be all obtainable, many of them should be mutually exclusive, and all of them should require either diplomacy and synergistic race interaction or military oppression and conquering of worlds and manging the resulting dissent across the space empire.

A good 4x game, gives you the choice to do things that lead to new ways to win the game. And I am not talking about bigger guns, but rather technologies that are extremely rare and difficult to obtain, say, like access to a alternate dimension that brings in new enemies and random (as in, -1- major randomly chosen) threat that gives player reason to unite races under 1 banner or try to take it solo if he so wishes.

Imo no inspiration AT ALL should be taken from GO/Chess/AnyBoardgame

Because this is where all space 4x games fail, they do not innovate the core idea. They all clone MOO and add fluff, but at the core, it's still MOO (Paint galaxy your color).. which MOO already did perfectly (more or less)

I guess... maybe.. I want a 4x RPG ? ;P

[wwwhhattt]

No matter how much fluff there is between this, if the end-goal is to paint the galaxy/map in my color, the 4x fails at some basic level imo

Namely the level that is supposed to put computer games above "board games"

The problem here isn't that computer games should be above board games, but that all the really neat stuff that would happen in a 4x boardgame happens between the players - all the lies, backstabbing and diplomacy that aren't regulated by sets of rules but by the players' creativity. Any computer game that tries to be a board game is going to miss out on what makes most board games worth playing.

Having said that, there are neat ideas in board games that could be used. Risk Legacy is based around players permanently changing the game over the first 15 games - cards get ripped up, players write on the board, rules get changed - it'd be neat to see a game where you can not only change the rules in play while you're in the game, but where those changes affect all your other playthroughs (although there would never be the same sense of permanence when you can delete the savefile and start from scratch). Dunno if that would work here mind.

And because you all love 43 minute videos of god knows how many guys playing ridiculously huge games: http://www.shutupandsitdown.com/blog/post/susd-play-goddamn-megagame/

Sorry if this comes over as dead evangelical, my initial reaction was to type BURN THE HERETIC over and over.

[topper]

Of course, i should have known!    Haha, i have always wanted to try DF but was a little itimidated by it. I will have to give it a go anyway.

If you download the Starter Pack (formerly the Lazy Newb Pack), then it simplifies setting up the game how you want it and automatically includes some texture packs that make the game a little easier to comprehend for new players (I use Phoebus).

I guess... maybe.. I want a 4x RPG ? ;P

Isn't that The Last Federation? Sort of? 

On topic:
The ideas look cool, I would love to see the Arcen design document at some point. But they probably want to keep that internal until the game is close to complete.

[eRe4s3r]

The problem here isn't that computer games should be above board games, but that all the really neat stuff that would happen in a 4x boardgame happens between the players - all the lies, backstabbing and diplomacy that aren't regulated by sets of rules but by the players' creativity. Any computer game that tries to be a board game is going to miss out on what makes most board games worth playing.

Yes and this is pretty much what I meant with that PC games should not take inspiration from board games. Any system that requires advanced AI or player interaction to succeed (as opposed to good, scripted writing of an NPC/Race) is imo doomed to fail in a pc game. Because even if we HAD real players, we would be stuck having to use the game systems for interaction and not the human interaction that makes board games what they are. I know there are some good 4x board games, but I find all of them require FAR too much PLAYER interaction and have barely if any abstraction mechanics for larger scope or indeed, progression into (potential) infinity.

In the end a 4x game on the pc needs to have systems in place to progress *gameplay*. If I do the same thing on round 1 that I do on round 500 then the game FAILED as a 4x imo. There is no progression. Which is really what I mean with that. (Aside from stagnant victory conditions). It also needs progression in terms of whatever I am playing needs to have a logical reason to have different gameplay in turn 500 than in turn 1. This can be done through MANY ways, like an evolving organism that is your empire, or you gain access to new technology like FTL travel. Or the CHAOS WARP from Warhammer40k....


Well, and @Topper

TLF is clearly not a 4x game

Anyhow, to sum up... the first successful space 4x (to me) will be one merging RPG and 4X and tactical combat together perfectly. I actually played something like that that came very close not so much in terms of 4x, but in terms of what I think could be a good combat system and rpg system in a 4x game (Legend of the Galactic Heroes , JAP only) Yes, it's a game, not just an (superb) epic space opera anime.

I absolutely adored how they handled HUGE fleet engagements in such a way that you yourself and your admirals were on the field, but you commanded FLEETS and what they do, not individual ships. But individual ships each have a chance to be hit/destroyed so huge engagements end up with your fleets slowly dismantling in front of your eyes and giant laser barrages reflecting from your flagship....  where you could try to lure in enemy fleets by presenting your main fleet as target and having your attack fleets do dangerous flanking moves that give you damage and attack bonus since space ships are unevenely armored.

[Aklyon]

Oh, and Dwarf Fortress...so much of it. I'm not 100% positive, but I suspect my victories in DF weren't all that many either.

What does it even mean to win DF?

In DF, you have fun until you have !FUN!, or you succumb to FPS death. There is no winning except at setting your own arbitrary goals.

Well, the Hall of Legends could be considered 'winning', if you include out of game winning.

[ptarth]

Winning in DF is achieved by having something happen that makes a good story. The quality of your win is determined by how many people hearing the story say, "I have to try that game." Previous DF wins include: BoatMurdered, Mermaid Farming, Sea Serpent Farming, and The Elf Dwarf King.

[ptarth]

The current game framework allows for some opportunities to explore a more classical science-fiction literature backstory. I hate to do it, but I present a work of fan-fiction to illustrate the point, rather than try to explain it another way.

Code: [Select]

They came for us in the night, and we were Taken.
Our vast armadas, our advanced technology, and our people's bravery meant nothing to them.

They took from us, our empire, our homes, and our memories.

We can't remember who they were or what they looked like, but we know they Took us.
We can't remember our previous lives, but we know we had them.
We can't remember going to the stars, but we were there.
These and many other memories are gone from our minds, Taken by Them.

But we remember who we were. We once had an empire stretching across the
galaxy, our cultural a beacon of light against the galactic void, and our
power a testament against the ages.

We are now a remanent planted upon an alien surface.
500 million adults of breeding age, 250 million children to replace them, and 250 million elders to guide us.
There are 1 billion of us here, a testament to the Their precision.

We have discovered others here. Strange creatures.
Creatures that were also stolen from their lives.
They fight over resources, land, and politics.

They have forgotten they were Taken.
They have forgotten who they were.
They have lost the stars, their honor, and their spirit.
They are content to squabble here in the mud with others.

We have not.
We remember.
And we will return.

We don't know who They are.
We don't know where They are.
They may even be here among us.
But it doesn't matter.

We will survive, we will rebuild, we will conquer,and we will unite.
And then, we will return.
We will find Them, and we will have our justice.

This would provide an explanation of how the game situation came to be. It would provide a compelling motivation for the player.
It would have to be adjusted per the player's starting race.

As to what really happened, you have tons of options, each of which might be true in any one particular game. Perhaps finding this out may be a game objective itself. Some of these options include:

• They were kidnapped from their people, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an experiment.
• They were kidnapped, their people wiped out, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an experiment.
• They were rescued, their people wiped out, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an reservation.
• They are the creators of the experiment, who had most of their memories wiped, and setup here as a control group.
• They are volunteers from of a Federation, who had most of their memories wiped, and setup here as a experiment.
• They are laboratory creations with artificial memories, setup here as an experiment.
• They are figments of the imagination, created by a Dreamer/Author from another dimension, setup here to tell a story.
• They are part of a computer simulations, setup here as an experiment.
• They are a group mind that has gone insane and this is just how their world evolved, however unlikely.
• Their minds have been taken over by a mind-controlling species, and this is the illusion that they perceive. Reality can be whatever you want.

[Teal_Blue]

The current game framework allows for some opportunities to explore a more classical science-fiction literature backstory. I hate to do it, but I present a work of fan-fiction to illustrate the point, rather than try to explain it another way.

Code: [Select]

They came for us in the night, and we were Taken.
Our vast armadas, our advanced technology, and our people's bravery meant nothing to them.

They took from us, our empire, our homes, and our memories.

We can't remember who they were or what they looked like, but we know they Took us.
We can't remember our previous lives, but we know we had them.
We can't remember going to the stars, but we were there.
These and many other memories are gone from our minds, Taken by Them.

But we remember who we were. We once had an empire stretching across the
galaxy, our cultural a beacon of light against the galactic void, and our
power a testament against the ages.

We are now a remanent planted upon an alien surface.
500 million adults of breeding age, 250 million children to replace them, and 250 million elders to guide us.
There are 1 billion of us here, a testament to the Their precision.

We have discovered others here. Strange creatures.
Creatures that were also stolen from their lives.
They fight over resources, land, and politics.

They have forgotten they were Taken.
They have forgotten who they were.
They have lost the stars, their honor, and their spirit.
They are content to squabble here in the mud with others.

We have not.
We remember.
And we will return.

We don't know who They are.
We don't know where They are.
They may even be here among us.
But it doesn't matter.

We will survive, we will rebuild, we will conquer,and we will unite.
And then, we will return.
We will find Them, and we will have our justice.

This would provide an explanation of how the game situation came to be. It would provide a compelling motivation for the player.
It would have to be adjusted per the player's starting race.

As to what really happened, you have tons of options, each of which might be true in any one particular game. Perhaps finding this out may be a game objective itself. Some of these options include:

• They were kidnapped from their people, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an experiment.
• They were kidnapped, their people wiped out, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an experiment.
• They were rescued, their people wiped out, most of their memories wiped, and setup here as an reservation.
• They are the creators of the experiment, who had most of their memories wiped, and setup here as a control group.
• They are volunteers from of a Federation, who had most of their memories wiped, and setup here as a experiment.
• They are laboratory creations with artificial memories, setup here as an experiment.
• They are figments of the imagination, created by a Dreamer/Author from another dimension, setup here to tell a story.
• They are part of a computer simulations, setup here as an experiment.
• They are a group mind that has gone insane and this is just how their world evolved, however unlikely.
• Their minds have been taken over by a mind-controlling species, and this is the illusion that they perceive. Reality can be whatever you want.

I really like your fan-fic, could you tell me what the title is and where i could read it?