Author Topic: 5/14: Chris's thoughts on what comes next (yikes balance!), and blueshirts.  (Read 6871 times)

Offline MaskityMask

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Sorry for this bit random question, but um... What does blast pannels do? I've never figured it out and I haven't remembered to ask

Offline x4000

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Cheers guys.  Very brief notes:

1. In terms of having AIs actually plop down permanent expiditionary forces over near you, they already have some capacity for doing that, but they do it rarely and usually more like the middle of the road between their place and yours.  I think the rarity there is a good thing.

2. Re: combined arms still having a lot of trouble and the AI not making optimal decisions, a lot of that comes down to having a design at present that is not AI-friendly.  We could chase AI problems all year by making a game that is ill-suited to AIs.  That not only eats up dev time, but it will create increasingly long interturns.  The solution is to create modifications to balance that make both players and AIs equally suited to combat.  You've given me some interesting food for thought with ranges on things there.  The inability to move into range does make range incredibly paramount, which I hadn't fully anticipated despite being in a number of fights myself.  That is interesting.

3. Re: fighting in general, my goal is to give a MAJOR home field advantage to everyone, including you.  An attack is generally not the sort of thing that should take over an enemy civilization and raze them to the ground, except sometimes when the Thoraxians or Spire do it.  Or in other various circumstances.  Rather, an attack is Really Messing Things Up.  It's one more thing to manage, like trash or disease, in your empire building game.  The balance in fighting is so incredibly far right now from what I want it to be that it doesn't remotely resemble the above, which is part of what I was talking about in my original post.  The new 0.821 actually brings things a lot closer, but anyhow.

4. Given the extreme home field advantages, that should lead to two things:
1) The AI doing raids on you and each other with saucers and other things, and making a mess, leading to temporary setbacks and other empire-building issues that are relevant but not in themselves game ending.  Think Sieges in Dwarf Fortress in a lot of respects.  It really messes up your plans for a while, and can be the start or the middle of a generalized death spiral.  But one on its own is not an immediate gg.
2) You attacking the AI is hard, and you're having to use all of your wits to really solve the combined arms puzzle that is at an enemy city if you want to do more than damage it.  If you really want to capture it or destroy it, you're going to have a fairly lengthy siege with incremental movement forward, etc.

5. Note that the above in #4 has always been my goal, but the balance was not something I could ever really address because the AI wasn't in the right place for that, etc.  As it is, the AI prioritizes doing stuff to mess you up when it attacks you, rather than stuff that is immediately going to lead to the survivability of its attack.  I've shifted that to a more balanced approach in this coming release, which will make the AI more effective and unpredictable in some good ways, I think.

6. This is fascinating in terms of the specific things it brings up: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17467.0.html
-- I haven't had time to digest it yet, but I will think about it some.  I see that as mostly closing some exploits in the form of some things I never thought to do, and some of that might involve some turn order shifts in terms of when what happens, etc, yep.

7. Blast panels protect buildings that are under them.  I originally thought there would be a lot more of those on your side, but I wound up moving away from that because I wanted the player empire to be more visible on the surface and the AI stuff to be a mixture of visible and hidden.  So the design shifted slightly to be what it is now, but yet blast panels remain in a functional but semi-pointless manner.  I think they do need to be repurposed, and ideas on that are quite welcome!  Or they just need to be removed, which is also fine.  It's not like the game is small without them. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline MaskityMask

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Ah. I did have actually guessed that, but I assumed I was wrong when I was unable to build basement under one <_< Maybe underground layer was too hard rock or something...

Offline Captain Jack

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Blast panels, eh? Well, do you want them to remain a military structure or do you want more general suggestions on how to reuse the graphics?

If they're to remain military, I'd recommend following a suggestion I saw before and making them decoy stations. A combined aboveground/underground structure, it broadcasts dummy chatter that convinces enemy forces that it's a target worth striking at over actual valuable structures.

EDIT: Actually, where is it that we make building suggestions? I'd like to propose adding arcologies to the game. Should that go on Mantis?

Offline ptarth

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EDIT: Actually, where is it that we make building suggestions? I'd like to propose adding arcologies to the game. Should that go on Mantis?

Pretty sure Chris wants this type of thing in the mantis.

re: Blast Panels
Adjacent buildings get a damage reduction bonus. Think Evangelion.
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline Captain Jack

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I'm sorry, I can only think Evangelion Re:Death. We're gonna party like it's nineteen ninety ni--


Spoiler for Hiden:
Also I'm pretty sure there's going to be a resource that does that.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 01:51:20 am by Watashiwa »

Offline jerith

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The inability to move into range does make range incredibly paramount, which I hadn't fully anticipated despite being in a number of fights myself.  That is interesting.

Crazy idea time:

What about making "move into range" a thing? Instead of constructing a building, you can move an existing building to a new location. The cost would be the same as a new building (hiring all those trucks and burly gents to pack and unpack) but "construction" time would be shorter because you're not waiting for the arms contractors to return from skiing holidays to deliver equipment. There would be very little benefit to it except giving you a way to shift things around more quickly (at relatively high cost) and move your military buildings to your new borders while expanding. (Also, having to wait several turns to build new armaments when a saucer or Grial appears in an awkward spot is a bit frustrating. I suppose new countermeasures will help with that, at least.)

I can see this being tricky to build UI for, though, and it also has balance implications that I'm not smart enough to figure out.

Offline MayhemMike

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Chris you should really chill out a bit. I'm for the most part just a silent (*cough* blueshirt) lurker on these forums but from what I've read throughout the last couple of months (maybe even years) I can safely say that you're surrounded by some of the nicest and most mature gamers out there. No one will bite your head off if something isn't working, everyone really appreciates the hard work you and the others are putting into your games.  Just relax and let us do the dirty beta testing work. :-)


Offline ptarth

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Good Morning Chris, you've been at work for whole minutes by now.  ;D
Any new words on your vision of combat?

Note: This has gone by without Chris making a funny comment, so now it just seems mean. I just wanted to say that this was a joke. No reasonable person would assume that Chris would have a completely rebuilt combat system and a 15 page thesis on how it works, with a 37 page appendix explaining how it was derived from Chess, finished barely a half hour into the start of a Monday. So we'll accept the 10 page draft without complaining much, as long as it is in either MLA or APA.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 05:02:52 pm by ptarth »
Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

Offline jerith

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My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy. She might even think I have unrealistic expectations. I just got yelled at because my obsessive refreshing and commenting about how long it's been without any activity on Mantis reached "It's been nearly an hour! What is everyone doing!?" while lying in bed with my laptop at 1am.

In my defence, it's after 1am and my meds wore off a while ago.

Offline x4000

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Cheers guys. :)  Just catching up to this thread now.

You're right, I should chill out, because you guys are super nice and really understanding.  But I don't like testing the patience of anyone, and there are always new people who I don't know as well, etc.  In general my intent is to err on the side of being too nice.

To specific discussion points:

1. Blast panels giving a defensive bonus to adjacent buildings is interesting and definitely is something that would be insanely trivial to code now, actually.  That's probably the best thing to do with them.  I think I'd make it a health boost rather than a damage reduction, though.

2. Regarding moving player buildings, that's not something I want to do, ever.  If there's something that requires that, then the design has gone wrong somewhere.  I've actually been contemplating how to remove the targeting of cities with buildings, too.  Basically so that you'd never do anything in the building details menu except disable a building (if you don't know to x-click), or select a resource (because that's unavoidable).  This may be unrealistic, and it's not a top priority of mine.  But keeping things fast and fluid definitely is.

3. Overall I think combat is more or less doing what I want at the moment, though the international incidents are not fully yet.  Basically:
a. If you're not in an incident with an enemy, then you creep up near to them and build a base, then attack them like mad. 
b. When you are already in a conflict with an enemy, you daisy chain the construction of interceptors and attackers forward, like doing the old tower offense lines in Age of Empires 1, and hurt them even more if you want to press the attack.  This is meant to be very hard, as defense is supposed to be easier than offense here.
c. Alternatively, you can get a temporary ceasefire (if you can afford it and they will allow it) and then build like mad.  Or you can wait until they get less angry at you, and the incident expires, and then go build closer again and resume your murdering.

Overall AI cities are too large right now, which is part of the problem, for one thing.  So are player cities.  The player side is not egregiously so, but the AI ones are easily 4x larger than I wanted.  So that makes attacking a big city a huge chore.  A lot of that has less to do with combat and more to do with how the AI builds its cities and how it marshals power.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline crazyroosterman

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I cant remember if this has already been mentioned but outside the saucers at the moment the ai feels really freaking passive I mean top part of the krolin city I'm keeping back 2 helicopters and 3 missiles it feels really easy the only reason I haven't gone on a crusade to slaughter the lot of them is that to be I cant really be bothered it feels like it would be a massive choir.(then again it might just because I'm playing as the zenith and as we all know there op as hell)
c.r

Offline jerith

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Overall AI cities are too large right now, which is part of the problem, for one thing.  So are player cities.  The player side is not egregiously so, but the AI ones are easily 4x larger than I wanted.  So that makes attacking a big city a huge chore.  A lot of that has less to do with combat and more to do with how the AI builds its cities and how it marshals power.

Does this mean the AI is going to start building multiple cities instead?

Offline x4000

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No, the AIs have always been meant to be smaller than you in terms of scale of their cities, but super duper dangerous balls of death where they are.  So you wind up expanding way more than them, but you don't want to get near them because they will keel yuu. ;)

In terms of passivity, that's an ongoing thing.  Some more international incidents are needed, among other things.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline jerith

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Ah, cool. I look forward to not having the Peltians and Krolin taking all my lebensraum. :-)