5/14: Chris's thoughts on what comes next (yikes balance!), and blueshirts.

[x4000]

Thinking about the international incidents, I think they are actually not too frequent in terms of the number of actual incidents, or at least not far off.  Having some conflicts going at all times, and not just one monolithic one either, is definitely a goal.  And the game used to have that, but it was always border skirmishes.  Now it's more evolved stuff.

The problem is the saucer death brigades, really.  Those need to be toned down at first, clearly, but also the player buildings need some health buffs in general anyway.  Not all of them, but some of them have just ludicrously low health.  That then brings me back around to resources and natural wonders, and having the player use those to help build stronger, tighter cities that can grow up without being those huge sprawls that we've seen in so many cases.  And there's a natural pushback now, because if you can't defend your hinterland, then you can't afford to have a hinterland.

There's a messload of balance I need to do there, but the design is now really clear to me in terms of what balances out what else.  Some things with planet rage are coming clear to me now as well, come to that.  God this is ALL connected, it's really interesting.  I can't fully solve any issues with ICS, planet rage, crime, disease, saucer waves, international incidents, resources, or natural wonders without solving them all at once.  And that's actually cool, I can live with that.  It's going to mean another week or so of very messy balance, though, to be sure.

Getting all of that balanced out with itself is going to basically be the precursor to adding in blueshirts, I've just now decided.


The TLDR: Some of the people who have been playing for a while are going to see some of these current changes and go "aah, things are broken!"  And to an extent that is definitely correct, because now the AI is actually interacting with you and each other militarily and at long range.  And that's not balanced yet.  And the citybuilding balance was only so-so previously, and was predicated around not having your city smashed to bits all the time.  So balance is going to be rubbish for a bit, and I apologize for that, and please just keep helping out with bug reports as you are able, and I'll speed through to the other end of this particular tunnel as quickly as possible.  During the week I expect we'll have daily releases for the foreseeable future, because no one feature is so large at the moment that it would cause a delay.  So in terms of balance swinging around, at least there will be frequent updates to help ease things. 


On my own end I have to just stop panicking and remembe that you guys are the earliest beta testers, and that throughout this particular process I can't provide a pristine experience for you.  It's going to be real sloppy for a week or so, with lots of "gg" situations on your part, and then probably some "ha, I'm invincible!" situations on your part, and then finally something in the middle.  A large part of my brain freaks out and goes MUST WORK ALL NIGHT TO GET THINGS PERFECT NAOW, THINGS ARE BROKENNN!!!  But if I'm to have any sanity and sleep and home life, I have to tell that part of my brain to shut up, and then just work as quickly as I can during regular (which are long anyway) business hours.

And we'll get there!  Soon.

Thanks to everyone for being a part of this ride, and for bearing with me.  Some patience with the process on your part will make this super easier on me, and if you need to step away for a few days or a week while I get things sorted out with these bits, that's absolutely fine.  Those who want to stay through this rough patch, I can definitely use huge amounts of feedback on where you are dying or OP, and why; that will let me get past this balance issue the fastest of anything, is that compound feedback from everyone.

Thanks again, and goodnight!

[Captain Jack]

Aah, things are broken!

Just had to get that out of my system. 

[ptarth]

...Aah, things are broken!...

[jerith]

A large part of my brain freaks out and goes MUST WORK ALL NIGHT TO GET THINGS PERFECT NAOW, THINGS ARE BROKENNN!!!  But if I'm to have any sanity and sleep and home life, I have to tell that part of my brain to shut up, and then just work as quickly as I can during regular (which are long anyway) business hours.

Wait, working all night isn't normal? *makes note to inform project managers*

Chris, you and Keith are among the most insanely productive devs I know. We all understand that quality work takes time, and love that it takes you guys less time than most. We signed up for live ammunition and sticky grenades, so don't be afraid to give us some -- it's what we're here for. (But we appreciate the warning.)

[ptarth]

I'm not sure if you want mantis reports or a central consolidated AI Saucer thread. I'm going to do the latter, since creating a bunch of related tickets seems less useful.

• The AI Saucers show up either at the center of the map or outside my city, regardless if I'm the troublemaker.
• It may be that they have killed the opposition and are on the way across the map, I'm not certain.
• I believe the Laser Saucer's attacks are unblockable until perhaps shield technology, perhaps never? I'm not quite sure.
• The solution to all of the Saucer attacks is actually straightforward. Build 4-6 Missile Launchers. When the Saucers show up, identify the offensive ones, blow them up. The defensive ones can be left alone, or cleaned up later.
• If the saucers survive, they will go after your Lander. Everyone will probably die, and you'll lose all of the power generation from it. Make sure you have backups, or enough missiles that this isn't an issue.
• You'll probably want to think about how interceptions and attackers are going to work out with the various buildings as a priority. I know you were wanting to work on the military once the early game was established, and that seems to be now.
• Otherwise, I think that the AI Saucer problem is fixed and I can go back to building monstrosities.
• To be fair, I did reload 10 times to characterize their behavior before solving the problem. I didn't just die screaming in agony 9 times in a row.
• Also, I still think you should shift (or at least think about it) the player's action phase in a turn earlier, so that the effects of a turn affect the next turn, per that thread in the beta forum. If I'm not clear, give me a heads up, and I'll make a bulleted list.

[MaskityMask]

@ptarth: I forgot to report about it, but shields definitely don't seem to work. That or they reduce damage. Either way, buildings protected by shields can still be destroyed and that was back in 8.14 or older versions

I should get shields at some point again to show it and mantis it <_<

[x4000]

I'm not sure if you want mantis reports or a central consolidated AI Saucer thread. I'm going to do the latter, since creating a bunch of related tickets seems less useful.

For things that are outright bugs in the sense of something is broken, a mantis ticket is preferred.  For discussion-style stuff about balance or mechanics, a megathread like this is fine for now in particular.

• I believe the Laser Saucer's attacks are unblockable until perhaps shield technology, perhaps never? I'm not quite sure.
• The solution to all of the Saucer attacks is actually straightforward. Build 4-6 Missile Launchers. When the Saucers show up, identify the offensive ones, blow them up. The defensive ones can be left alone, or cleaned up later.

I really need to think about ranged attacks in general.  They were always meant to be a trump card, but one that camp with an extended cost to them.  However, I never put in an extended cost or thought about it.  Aka, basically like the US could solve any military conflict by just dropping a small nuke on the problem, but there would be repercussions for sure.  So we have them but don't use them.  In SBR, missiles and lasers would not be remotely so bad as a nuke, but that's the closest real-life example I can think of.  You'd use them, but they'd be something that you rely on absolutely as little as possible.

I'm not sure if it should be planet rage, or loss of trust with other races, or a crown cost to create each missile that gets fired, or something else.

• If the saucers survive, they will go after your Lander. Everyone will probably die, and you'll lose all of the power generation from it. Make sure you have backups, or enough missiles that this isn't an issue.

I need to do something about that, but I'm not sure what yet.  Being able to "go straight for the king" is something I'm not thrilled about.  Maybe a health buff from other buildings in the city is in order, I'm not sure.

• You'll probably want to think about how interceptions and attackers are going to work out with the various buildings as a priority. I know you were wanting to work on the military once the early game was established, and that seems to be now.

In what sense?  In past tests of mine, they've done quite well with combined arms and what they targeted.  Their goals were a mixture of both taking out military installations and taking out other buildings, and they were doing quite well at it, heh.

• Also, I still think you should shift (or at least think about it) the player's action phase in a turn earlier, so that the effects of a turn affect the next turn, per that thread in the beta forum. If I'm not clear, give me a heads up, and I'll make a bulleted list.

That doesn't sound like something I'd do, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I've been staying out of the beta discussions for the most part and letting you guys discuss privately.  The whole "push button, see fireworks right now" mechanic is here to stay 100% for sure definitely, though, and it sounds like that's what you're talking about?  That sort of immediacy is really important to me, and it does confer some advantages to the player that the player needs.

[nas1m]

I'm not sure if you want mantis reports or a central consolidated AI Saucer thread. I'm going to do the latter, since creating a bunch of related tickets seems less useful.

For things that are outright bugs in the sense of something is broken, a mantis ticket is preferred.  For discussion-style stuff about balance or mechanics, a megathread like this is fine for now in particular.

• I believe the Laser Saucer's attacks are unblockable until perhaps shield technology, perhaps never? I'm not quite sure.
• The solution to all of the Saucer attacks is actually straightforward. Build 4-6 Missile Launchers. When the Saucers show up, identify the offensive ones, blow them up. The defensive ones can be left alone, or cleaned up later.

I really need to think about ranged attacks in general.  They were always meant to be a trump card, but one that camp with an extended cost to them.  However, I never put in an extended cost or thought about it.  Aka, basically like the US could solve any military conflict by just dropping a small nuke on the problem, but there would be repercussions for sure.  So we have them but don't use them.  In SBR, missiles and lasers would not be remotely so bad as a nuke, but that's the closest real-life example I can think of.  You'd use them, but they'd be something that you rely on absolutely as little as possible.

I'm not sure if it should be planet rage, or loss of trust with other races, or a crown cost to create each missile that gets fired, or something else.

• If the saucers survive, they will go after your Lander. Everyone will probably die, and you'll lose all of the power generation from it. Make sure you have backups, or enough missiles that this isn't an issue.

I need to do something about that, but I'm not sure what yet.  Being able to "go straight for the king" is something I'm not thrilled about.  Maybe a health buff from other buildings in the city is in order, I'm not sure.

• You'll probably want to think about how interceptions and attackers are going to work out with the various buildings as a priority. I know you were wanting to work on the military once the early game was established, and that seems to be now.

In what sense?  In past tests of mine, they've done quite well with combined arms and what they targeted.  Their goals were a mixture of both taking out military installations and taking out other buildings, and they were doing quite well at it, heh.

• Also, I still think you should shift (or at least think about it) the player's action phase in a turn earlier, so that the effects of a turn affect the next turn, per that thread in the beta forum. If I'm not clear, give me a heads up, and I'll make a bulleted list.

That doesn't sound like something I'd do, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I've been staying out of the beta discussions for the most part and letting you guys discuss privately.  The whole "push button, see fireworks right now" mechanic is here to stay 100% for sure definitely, though, and it sounds like that's what you're talking about?  That sort of immediacy is really important to me, and it does confer some advantages to the player that the player needs.

I just had a weird idea:

If the too high mobility/range/whatever of the saucers is a problem (e.g. in terms of being able to go for you Lander no matter what) as well as other issues, why not have the saucers plunk down buildings instead (which still would have to finish their construction)?

These "building raids" would:

a) Provide a means for races to strike afar from their cities wthout being too mobile/dangerous/able to strike anywhere with impunity (as the players city would be able to serve as a "buffer" here).

b) Provide some grace period for other races/the player to react by constructing his "counter" in form of buildings (providing exactly the kind of mutual "stalking" and mixed arms warfare that I think you are after, Chris).

c) Keep the focus on buildings/cities instead if saucers (which would just be the ingame explanation and visual representation of how the "raid buildings"  got to where they are).

Thoughts?
I must say I am fairly enthused by my idea .

[x4000]

I think that perhaps we'd need to have some sort of holographic view of the saucers that are incoming during their "construction" phase, so it's kind of a "they are warping in" phase, not construction per se.  That way they can't be attacked before they are complete, which is really important.  Aka, the build-up process is key, where neither side can attack but they can see what is going on and about to go down.  I like it!

[nas1m]

I think that perhaps we'd need to have some sort of holographic view of the saucers that are incoming during their "construction" phase, so it's kind of a "they are warping in" phase, not construction per se.  That way they can't be attacked before they are complete, which is really important.  Aka, the build-up process is key, where neither side can attack but they can see what is going on and about to go down.  I like it!

.
I hoped as much .
Did I get your vision fairly right?

EDIT: I like the hologram view idea even better than doing usual construction. Kinda like Protoss warping in reinforcements...

[nas1m]

I think that perhaps we'd need to have some sort of holographic view of the saucers that are incoming during their "construction" phase, so it's kind of a "they are warping in" phase, not construction per se.  That way they can't be attacked before they are complete, which is really important.  Aka, the build-up process is key, where neither side can attack but they can see what is going on and about to go down.  I like it!

Just to clarify: I was thinking about actually putting down buildings (or warping them in) instead of warping in the saucers.
The rationale behind this being that:

a) Only a single asset (potentially per race) is needed for a single transporter/construction/warp gate type saucer or vehicle which flies out to place/position the actual buildings performing the raid

b)  Providing an explanation this way, why e.g. the central building of a race can't be assaulted directly using a saucer

c) Changing the map more thoroughly by (possibly) persisting buildings (instead of saucers)

I also clarified my original post a bit.

[crazyroosterman]

don't worry about me I managed to survive the era of pollution death spirals I can survive this fine in my burlust game at the moment(which is the only one fresh from international incidents) I'm doing alright(although that might be because I'm only near the andors who I'm slaughtering) but that might change when these incidents start actually accruing also I have to ask from a lore/thematic point of view if these saucers are so powerful then why do some of these races use helicopters at all?.

[crazyroosterman]

o dear after I noticed the krolins drop ship on the edge of my city(gotta say I really I like its design by the way) which I promptly blew up with my helicopter(my ground couldn't blow up/capture it realy?! in fact that might just be a sext little thing for ground forces ill mantis that) the krolins sent their f you brigade of 6 saucers and 1 by its one which destroyed something like 3 or 4 buildings by it self don't know whats going to happen next since my laptop crashed.

[crazyroosterman]

for some bizarre reason the boarines have landed next to my city I'm not sure why the krolins decided to go for me in the first place to be honest.

[ptarth]

re:x4000 I'm trying to address the relevant portion and not get into unproductive distraction. If I fail to address something important, please note it.

In what sense?  In past tests of mine, they've done quite well with combined arms and what they targeted.  Their goals were a mixture of both taking out military installations and taking out other buildings, and they were doing quite well at it, heh.

Due to the lack of proper responsiveness by the AI complicated military strategies have thus been unnecessary. For example, my largest battle was versus the Acutians with the Skylaxians. They had a very nice defensive line with all mixture of defensive buildings. My solution: Build 1 more helipad than they had interceptors. Then destroy everything they had. I only built barracks because I need to destroy underground buildings. Bombers weren't feasible because their damage was not very good.

Today (In the AI Saucer game) was the first time I had ever seriously built a missile unit. I needed to do 30k?(or was it 60k?) damage to kill a saucer. None of the other military buildings would come even close to that amount of damage. Likewise, the amount of range and territory to protect was huge. The Saucers have 8+ range, so they can spawn quite a ways away (and even in water) and still shoot you. There is also the question of what type of attacks can even hit the Saucers. In the end, missiles were the obvious choice.

For balance purposes helipads and bombers have the longest range, therefore there is no good reason (as it stands) to build many of the other buildings. They have shorter range and less impressive damage. For the Boarines this might be less of the case, because they have penalties to non-barrack attacks. Once combat operations start, getting the range boosting social upgrades is vital. That way you can destroy your opponent before they can even shoot back at you.

Mind you, this all requires that the damage scaling is as intended, which as you noted on the helipad damage calculations, wasn't what you thought it was.

• Also, I still think you should shift (or at least think about it) the player's action phase in a turn earlier, so that the effects of a turn affect the next turn, per that thread in the beta forum. If I'm not clear, give me a heads up, and I'll make a bulleted list.

That doesn't sound like something I'd do, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I've been staying out of the beta discussions for the most part and letting you guys discuss privately.  The whole "push button, see fireworks right now" mechanic is here to stay 100% for sure definitely, though, and it sounds like that's what you're talking about?  That sort of immediacy is really important to me, and it does confer some advantages to the player that the player needs.

I'm refering to this thread: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17467.0.html
I'll try to provide a briefer but more informative summary if the one I provided is not sufficient.

I'm trying to find ways of providing useful information and feedback. But I don't know what you are thinking, so I end up just finding a weak spots in the system and exploiting it.  However, this method isn't useful for system development, so I'm concerned that the feedback I give is misleading you into how important it is.

Also, I'm amused that today's patch notes are:
Ptarth did this to stop the AI Saucer Horde. Never again.