Linguistics

[ptarth]

I really like the idea behind the linguistics and communication lines, but the current implementation leaves me unhappy.

Problems

• Too hard to parse. I don't bother to try to understand aliens until I have at least 5, sometimes 6 in their language.
• Given that the order of the choices never change, I can also just navigate blind through the discussion.
• Linguistic costs to learn languages is too high.
• You don't really need to understand anyone to be able to use the market. Just short and click until it works.

Thoughts on Solutions

• Reduce cost of linguistic research OR give more bonuses in middle and late game to linguistic research point production.
• Randomize order of dialog options every time.
• Have numbers be completely translated earlier.
• Currently the linguistic error is treated as a cypher substitution code. Which is really cool. But I'd like to see it more gradiated to make it easier and cooler.[/li
  
  • Language processing can be broken up into Phonology (defining basic sounds) , Syntax (word type orders), Semantics (meaning).
  • Let's assume we have 7 levels of linguistic development.
  • Level 0: Everything is gibberish. No diplomatic actions available.
  • Level 1: Phonology 1. 75% of the characters are correct. Can make peace. 200% penalty to prices.
  • Level 2: Phonology 2. 95% of characters are correct. Can make market trades. 100% penalty to discussions.
  • Level 3: Semantics 1. 75% of words are the correct word. 75% penalty to discussions.
  • Level 4: Syntax 1. 75% of words are in correct order.  50% penalty to discussions.
  • Level 5: Syntax 2. 95% of words are in correct order. 25% penalty to discussions.
  • Level 6: Semantics 2. 95% of words are the correct word. 0% penalty to discussions.
  • Level 7: Perfect Speech. Can make all diplomatic actions. 25% bonus to discussions.
  • Now this is just an abbreviated list, and the numbers aren't absolutes, they are just general guidelines.
  • And after developing this more, it still doesn't match up very well.
  • You'd have a sigmoid for the correct generation of characters, words, and orders.
  • At the very bottom, you make all errors. As you progress the different errors change rates at different rates.
  • Let's pretend we want to say. "I like your dog"
  • 0. O Ughs YWerusi AOSDFUsdfi
  • 1. deg toliato your I
  • 2. dog smile for I
  • 3. Me like dog
  • 4. I like dog
  • 5. I like you dog
  • 6. I like your dog
  • 7. My, what a handsome dog you have, it is such a noble creature. It's health and happiness is a testament to your greatness. By the way did you catch the game last night? What a great catch in the 4th inning!

Well, that was a poorly formed description of an idea.[/list]

[crazyroosterman]

that's a pretty sweet idea I was thinking something along the lines my self(ie getting benefits to things out side purely understanding the race) and I think randomising the speech is going to pretty nesacery to keep this a worthwhile mechanic other wise when it comes out people will just memorise what each line of text does and not bother with linguistics on linguistic costs to high I still my idea would help with that.

[tbrass]

Absolutely agree (have you mantisized this suggestion?)

If possible, I would also like any existing trade or political agreements to add to linguistic research for that race. Cross-cultural exchange and the like.

[ptarth]

I haven't mantis'ed it. There have been other people (crazyroosterman i think?) who have also been posting thoughts about linguistics and I'd like to see more exposure and thoughts. The Mantis is already full of stuff that is more low level and critical than this, so we have plenty of time to flesh something out.

[x4000]

Yep, I would definitely like to take the time to expand this some now that we have more time.  I agree that it could stand to feel better and etc.  Right now I'm going to ignore this, but hopefully things have settled down in 2-3 weeks such that I can think about this.  Feel free to discuss in my absence obviously.

[crazyroosterman]

this is little of centre to linguistics but I havent been able to figure out how to ceasefire with other races when I try to use the option I just get a screen with the word offers on it and nothing. ps I love how thoraxians(I think?) language consists 90 percent of the letter z when you've done linguistic work

[x4000]

I'm not sure what the deal is with ceasefire, if it's a bug or some sort of criteria that has to be met that is not met (but that should be telling you it's not met).  It's in mantis already I think, but if anyone has a savegame that shows where they think it should work but it doesn't, that will really help out Keith in figuring out that one.

Glad you like the thoraxian language style, I tried to get really thematic with each race's garbling.

[crazyroosterman]

HU well I didn't realise this was a common problem I thought it was just me.(that I had some weird bug or was missing something obvious)

[crazyroosterman]

also I'm not sure how you activate things like getting them to cure your diseases do I not just have the things I need to offer them or is that not enougher weird thing?.

[ptarth]

The only thing I've gotten to work is the pollution treaty. I've just labelled the majority of diplomacy options as under construction.

[crazyroosterman]

yea I think chris said some time before said that diplomacy wasn't up to scratch at the moment makes me sad really because all those options look really interesting.

[MaskityMask]

So level 7 is the "Speaks the language better than native speaker of the language" tier?

[crazyroosterman]

I don't know about speaking it better than the native speaker but its certainly the point were you can understand them well enough to translate into what ever language is convenient for your race.

[ptarth]

Yes. Level 7 is maximum language skills. (He was making a joke.)

[crazyroosterman]

I totally knew that but still I had to correct him because if the language researched wasn't being translated you'd just be using their language to speak to them any way meaning you would still have no idea what the hell was going on.