Author Topic: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread  (Read 4410 times)

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 09:20:26 am »
What would make the game more dynamic would be planetary disasters. Stuff that affects every race and that you have to deal with.

Some examples:

-Tsunami: Tiles adjacent to water/ocean will turn to ocean, stuff that was placed on top of it is lost (except you have flood protection)
-Earthquake: A region on the map receives heavy damage on every building with stuff in the epicenter getting most damage
-cave in: A random underground section gets destroyed, including resources
-forest fire: destroys forest tiles, spreads to adjacent tiles. Can catch nearby buildings

Some tiles need also more capalities. the "self scrupping" ability of forest is not very helpful, the different tiles need to be more unique.
Since it's forest, why not increase O2 production and reduce Co2 production? That's what forests do.
Mountain tiles are already unpassable for buildings, why not make them impassable for ground troops?
The lack of difference int iles is currently really unbearable and I see Chris efforts to change this (forest tiles take longer to get overbuilt) but that's clearly not enough. There need to be some serious changes. Maybe we also get options to create forests and rocky terraisn when this changes happened.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 09:24:22 am »
I'll poke in here and add to the confusion about the saucers. Theoretically they should move, yes? They don't look like static things, but they never move or do much of anything besides shoot down other saucers that appear next to them. Eventually they vanish.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 09:33:15 am »
I also think the saucers would benefit from some smaller animations like floating up and down above the ground.

Offline nas1m

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 10:56:28 am »
I also think the saucers would benefit from some smaller animations like floating up and down above the ground.
I agree that this would definitely improve the looks of the game. Not that it would alleviate the main concerns uttered here, but nonetheless...
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 11:03:41 am »
Difference is how we approach 4x games.  I turtle.  I'd like to be left alone to build up and then come out like a hurricane once I hit that key tech (tanks in Civ) or feel like I have a severe tech advantage on my foes.  I hardly ever use diplomacy except as means to hide myself from prying eyes.

What you want and what I want are going to be vastly different things.  We don't come with the same approach at all.

Actually, that's not always true.  Yes, I know, I tend to come off as hyper-aggressive in terms of how I approach.... everything, but even in something like a fighting game I'll sometimes go into total defense mode, where aggression stops almost entirely and I simply react to and try to reflect whatever is thrown at me.   It definitely happens in strategy games, moreso than in action games.  Actually, in a 4x,  I'm more passive than aggressive; rarely do I use military measures to instigate anything.  They are used to respond, or to intervene.  I usually defend and manipulate, as my default state.  I wait until THEY start a war; I do not start it myself (unless the situation indeed demands it, lest I lose the game entirely).

And that's the thing about it:  Even playing passive and defensive, in a typical 4x there's ALWAYS stuff happening, and I still am interacting with the map, with buildings and units (there's often plenty of units that ARENT military in strategy games like this, after all; heck, Anno is a GREAT example of that one, and an example of that approach working very well, with all of it's units serving a bazillion purposes that DONT involve explosions).  I'm still moving stuff around, still focusing on different stuff, still strategizing... even if I havent taken a direct action yet.  There's still stuff to DO.  That, not the presence of constant fighting, is what I'm getting at with all of this.  Obviously plenty of players wont want to just be blasting things all the time.  But they still want that involvement, and there's different types of involvement.  The issue to me isnt that theres a different type of involvement here.... it's that involvement as a whole is mostly absent entirely right now.

Never played Anno.  MoO 3, SotS 1/2, Civ 3/4/5 are pretty much my experience in the 4x arena. 
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Offline Misery

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 11:26:13 am »
Difference is how we approach 4x games.  I turtle.  I'd like to be left alone to build up and then come out like a hurricane once I hit that key tech (tanks in Civ) or feel like I have a severe tech advantage on my foes.  I hardly ever use diplomacy except as means to hide myself from prying eyes.

What you want and what I want are going to be vastly different things.  We don't come with the same approach at all.

Actually, that's not always true.  Yes, I know, I tend to come off as hyper-aggressive in terms of how I approach.... everything, but even in something like a fighting game I'll sometimes go into total defense mode, where aggression stops almost entirely and I simply react to and try to reflect whatever is thrown at me.   It definitely happens in strategy games, moreso than in action games.  Actually, in a 4x,  I'm more passive than aggressive; rarely do I use military measures to instigate anything.  They are used to respond, or to intervene.  I usually defend and manipulate, as my default state.  I wait until THEY start a war; I do not start it myself (unless the situation indeed demands it, lest I lose the game entirely).

And that's the thing about it:  Even playing passive and defensive, in a typical 4x there's ALWAYS stuff happening, and I still am interacting with the map, with buildings and units (there's often plenty of units that ARENT military in strategy games like this, after all; heck, Anno is a GREAT example of that one, and an example of that approach working very well, with all of it's units serving a bazillion purposes that DONT involve explosions).  I'm still moving stuff around, still focusing on different stuff, still strategizing... even if I havent taken a direct action yet.  There's still stuff to DO.  That, not the presence of constant fighting, is what I'm getting at with all of this.  Obviously plenty of players wont want to just be blasting things all the time.  But they still want that involvement, and there's different types of involvement.  The issue to me isnt that theres a different type of involvement here.... it's that involvement as a whole is mostly absent entirely right now.

Never played Anno.  MoO 3, SotS 1/2, Civ 3/4/5 are pretty much my experience in the 4x arena.

Hmmm... how best to explain it....

Firstly, Anno (2070 being the one I'm familiar with, it can be found on Steam... HIGHLY recommended) isnt a super traditional 4x.  It still has all of the "x" elements, but it doesnt do them all in quite the same way.  It's actually similar in concept to SBR here; there's a city building aspect, and then an RTS aspect (not turn-based) on top of that.  The citybuilding though has an extreme focus on production and use of items/goods/whatever; you're setting up some darned complicated production/assembly lines in addition to dealing with civilian housing.  It's got alot of depth and there's alot to it.  Kind of a nasty learning curve actually, but sooooo good.

But anyway, there arent actually all that many unit types per side.  Maybe about.... 10?  As opposed to there being about a bazillion different building types (*all* of which are important in some way).  The game just doesnt need that many units, particularly considering the way it uses them.  A couple of units on each side are not capable of combat; cargo haulers, mainly (and note, all units in the game are either boats/subs which make up the majority, or aerial, which tend to appear late-game only and not very often; there are no land units) which are used to transfer goods/whatever from wherever to wherever.  But not just those; even your "military" units can do stuff like that, and indeed, this is what those units will be doing most of the time.  You'll use them to transfer important special items around (as they're fast but cant carry all that much, so they're best for single items or small loads) without disturbing the constant rhythm of your haulers, you might use them to accomplish all sorts of missions, for example, going out and rescuing some people from a boat that had an accident and is sinking in the middle of the ocean (and there's ALOT of ocean), or maybe you're picking up an important scientist and taking him to where he needs to be; NONE of these particular tasks involving bullets or explosions (though obviously there are definite combat uses for them too).  Your units are incredibly versatile, moreso than I see in pretty much any other game like this, and there's so many possible things you can do with them, all of which are interesting and useful.   

While your goal is to somehow defeat the other characters (and there's a variety of ways to do this), moments of combat are over quickly, and not TOO common (unless Hector is around, sometimes he'll just keep pestering you, feh).  You DO have to be very careful in them, as losing just one unit can REALLY hurt, and they're done well, but... yeah.  They're not the main focus even though they remain important.  You're given so many other things to do with the very same units that no matter what, the game keeps you feeling involved in it, keeps you doing stuff at the same time, even without explosions.  It really is the best example of the concept I can think of.  Though it can be a bit TOO hectic for some players, because there's always SOMETHING breaking down or going wrong, and then someone's complaining about a mission they're waiting on, and then Hector is back with his blasted boat jerks, and then suddenly you're not producing glass anymore for no apparent reason... but it's a good example nonetheless.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 11:38:32 am »
Sounds like a bunch of stuff I don't want to do. It's a city builder sim with rts elements.  Not my cup of tea. And not what I think SBR is about.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 11:45:02 am by Cinth »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 12:28:06 pm »
Sounds like a bunch of stuff I don't want to do. It's a city builder sim with rts elements.  Not my cup of tea. And not what I think SBR is about.

I consider the RTS bit irrelevent;  particularly as it plays *nothing* like one.  For example, you have no army.  You'll have maybe, like, 5 or 6 units active at once?  10-12 by late game, but I find that's usually not very necessary (well, with the way I do things anyway). And much of the time, you arent paying attention to or watching them.  You grab at one (one at a time, usually) and do stuff with it when you need it; often you'll give it a destination (clicking ONCE, not 10000 times!!! Bloody Starcraft...) and while it takes 50 billion years to get there you go back and do whatever... you can check on it once it's done moving and then make it do whatever else.  Otherwise, they sit there.   Honestly, if this actually PLAYED like an RTS usually does, you couldnt PAY me to play it.  I hate what Starcraft made that genre into.  There's no trying to babysit every damn unit ever all at once. No having to know 10 bazillion hotkeys (I know *one* hotkey for it.  Which is city-related)  None of that crap.  Thankfully.  (I'll stop there before this turns into a Starcraft rant).

Which is part of why I can compare it to THIS game, since the actual pacing is very, very similar.  It's not a fast-moving game (and neither is this).  But it shares the same concepts, yet proves that it can be completely done WITHOUT resorting to combat (as I said, combat in that doesnt happen often).  In the end, it really is, to me (and I fully know that game and have spent a great many hours on it, so I find it easy to compare it's mechanics with this one) very similar to this one in a huge number of ways, and a good example of the concepts I was referring to for SBR.

Which I might point out, is the real point... I only used the comparison to illustrate what I was saying up above.  Couldnt really think of a better way to do it.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 12:35:56 pm »
I just don't like sim style games.  And I actually like the non-competitive side of Starcraft.  It's just nowhere near as hard as Warcraft was.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 01:04:45 pm »
I don't  own Anno 2070 but I have the original Anno and one of it's sequels (don't know which one).
The basic concept is still the same in all installments, so I'm just adding my thoughts to it.
The main purpose of Anno is not domination, it's about maintaining a colony and keepong the citizens happy. There are dozens of resources you need. Not for building but for satisfaction.
Cotizens want luxury goods, their initial needs are rather low (some food and low taxes are enough) but they will soon crave for religion, cloth, spices and a lot of other stuff.
That's the basic idea behind the game, build stuff, collect resources, your citizens want something new, build it or if you cannot build it try to look on another place.
Battles aren't important very much unless you need something from a different island and your neighbor won't give it to you with trading.

SBR lacks that part. You have more resources as in Anno but they are not needed, instead they give bonuses. You could change this maybe if some resources are really just needed for keeping your citizens happy ("Your city demands X"). This would force the player to look for resource spots and even fighting for it if you have to (or through diplomacy). It could however turn entirely horrible (you don't find the resource, your city spirales down in crime and deaths).

Anno was also determined by the fact that you had only limited space to build. Every island has only that amount of space and you couldn't increase this in any way, getting more meant to search for another island. This meant also that you had to organize your buildings depending on the shape of your island. SBR lacks this as well, you just have too much space to build your stuff, you don't need to rearenge your buildings depending on where you start. It turns out all the same in the end. Adjecancy bonuses at least gave my city a better shape but other than that I'm still doing entirely the same. Except I'm in war. Than I'm spamming military buildings depending on what I need.

Offline Mick

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 01:16:13 pm »
Honestly, I find all the talk and comparison to ANNO a huge digression from what the problems in this game are. This game is like ANNO only in so much as both games involve placing buildings.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 05:14:51 pm »
the way this topic is going its seems to be teetering of the rails  a bit hopefully it won't end up completely derailing like that one topic I made did.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 05:25:29 pm »
Derailed topics are the norm around these parts :)  That aside, the topic is on track for the most part.  Kinda hard to follow an example or comparison when you don't know the source.
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Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 05:44:05 pm »
Honestly, I find all the talk and comparison to ANNO a huge digression from what the problems in this game are. This game is like ANNO only in so much as both games involve placing buildings.


It's completely fair game ;D to compare game mechanics. Misery is not saying "make this game Anno!" Misery *is* using that game to make some points.

Also, as to Misery's original post, my review was much the same thing which you can read for yourself on the forum thread listing. As it stands now, there are some glaring weaknesses, and as testers (and long time fans/supporters of the company), it's our job to be honest and point that out.

When misery,myself, and most people on this forum have criticisms, there's no need to rush to the defense of Arcen games. We are all here as "friends of the company," and we want things to go well. Nobody is trying to be mean, pointlessly negative, etc. so I don't think there is a need to have a defensive reaction to a post like this.

Let's just all be adults about it, we all play lots of games, so let's assume goodwill among each other and get straight to the honesty.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Misery's annual unpleasant feedback thread
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 10:18:02 pm »
Honestly, I find all the talk and comparison to ANNO a huge digression from what the problems in this game are. This game is like ANNO only in so much as both games involve placing buildings.


It's completely fair game ;D to compare game mechanics. Misery is not saying "make this game Anno!" Misery *is* using that game to make some points.

Also, as to Misery's original post, my review was much the same thing which you can read for yourself on the forum thread listing. As it stands now, there are some glaring weaknesses, and as testers (and long time fans/supporters of the company), it's our job to be honest and point that out.

When misery,myself, and most people on this forum have criticisms, there's no need to rush to the defense of Arcen games. We are all here as "friends of the company," and we want things to go well. Nobody is trying to be mean, pointlessly negative, etc. so I don't think there is a need to have a defensive reaction to a post like this.

Let's just all be adults about it, we all play lots of games, so let's assume goodwill among each other and get straight to the honesty.

Yeah, pretty much.  Negative as I may be, the point of all of this is simply to help with development to produce that much of a better end product, however I can.  The comparison to Anno is because I indeed do see *alot* of similarities; not in terms of just HOW they play; but in the mechanics and concepts.  Neither is a true city builder (as I said, Anno is about production lines; the housing stuff is very simplistic compared to that) as both are not focused on being a sim at all (no, seriously, you couldnt call EITHER of these games a sim, not remotely) but are instead focused on managing a complicated mesh of buildings working together to create what passes for a city in each game, while at the same time managing all of these strategy aspects that are the stuff that's NOT related to just slapping buildings down (and which are typically the actual goal of the city stuff; you use the city stuff to generate what you need to reach the victory condition).   That's pretty much what I meant.  The concepts, not the style of play, are what's important here; SBR will fully develop it's own unique style of play as development continues.  Right now, I actually think it's too early to even determine just what that style is, since the whole game isnt there yet. 

So yeah, that's what that's all about.  So far, everything I've pointed out (aside from the explanation of how the other game works, which I gave just as a reference point) about the connection between the two games and their concepts does indeed have a purpose for the stuff I'm trying to get at here.

Confusing, maybe.  I aint always so good at phrasing stuff, so there mighta been better ways to do it, but that was the best I could think of at the time.  Just consider not the games themselves, but just the ideas in play here, as that's all that matters at this point.

...and besides, I cant imagine that Chris or Keith would take any offense to anything I've said here.  Certainly, none of it is meant as such, of course.

Honestly, I find all the talk and comparison to ANNO a huge digression from what the problems in this game are. This game is like ANNO only in so much as both games involve placing buildings.

This is the Arcen forum.... if the topic here isnt being derailed at least once every page or two, I'm relatively certain the server will implode.  Cant have that, so....