Early game problems (mainly military)

[kasnavada]

@topper

This game should move along just fine independent of player pace, the overall momentum of the races building up and bickering with each other and you ensures that. Do you play AI War with no AIP over time?

I would prefer a more organic solution, where if you hit certain milestones of number of military buildings, it triggers a buildup of the counter in your enemies cities.

I don't understand. Either the Ai's increase of power moves independantly, or it's tied to the player... you can't really do both. I believe we were speaking about the "global" increase of power that the AI has.
Now, if you're speaking about how the AI should react when making aggressive move toward him and / or when victory seems clear for someone else, that's another problem. Yes, the AI should react to your moves. It should turn whatever power and possibilities it has toward killing you instead of whatever goal it wants to achieve. But I don't think its "inherent" power should increase in reaction to what you do.

From an "abstract" point of view, let's say that at turn 100 the AI has a "power" of "100". If you're winning handily it should direct 100% of that power toward eliminating you. If you're not, 20% for example. But still, every game, unless it gets a beating, it should have around 100 power at that point in time. Much like Civ, when the game is around middle age, "everyone" is in middle age. If the player forgot to build research buildings and is still discovering the wheel, that's the player's problem. Am I clearer stating it that way ?

I was only speaking about the "global" power level here, if that makes it clearer. I prefer it more or less tied to time, and not in any way to the player's progress (reasons stated above).

[topper]

I think I understand your idea better, but I still respectfully disagree that this is how SBR should work.

Have you played AI War? When you get near victory with high AIP, the AI is "cheating", it does not follow the same rules that you do. Its power increases even faster to give a fun/difficult challenge right to the end. This is the power of asymmetric (and sometimes cheating) AI.

If you are nearing a domination win in SBR, all the remaining races who are not yet dominated should unite together to fight you, that is good programming. But if you are playing with "fair" AI, then as soon as you reach the tipping point (51% of the military, or likewise), then the game is effectively over already except for a grindfest to reach the end. Anybody who has won a conquest victory in Civ5 can attest that this is not the most fun part of the game.

SBR has great potential from what Chris has hinted at, which I can try to add some guesses of my own to.
When you are reaching near that tipping point, the AI can get special reinforcements and probably cheats to create a big exciting clash. Then, when you are past that hump, they accept you subdued them and the game can be over immediately without the boring end grind.

I don't understand. Either the Ai's increase of power moves independantly, or it's tied to the player... you can't really do both.

1. The AIs power is always increasing over time since they are building and expanding and planet rage/pollution are increasing. This is like ticking AIP.
2. When the player does certain things or reaches certain power levels, then the AI response increases at a faster rate.
The sum of these two things is a game that has its own momentum, but also responds to the player to keep the game interesting. A few good opening moves should not win you the game.

[Shrugging Khan]

The AIs power is always increasing over time since they are building and expanding and planet rage/pollution are increasing

In my experience, the AIs are too busy exterminating each other and ultimately getting eaten by the Thoraxians and the Spire to be a threat.

[kasnavada]

2 seconds of search of my profile would have proven to you that I have played AI war.

The behaviour that you're describing is exactly the one I want to avoid. The AI getting cheats to compete... doesn't appeal to me in most games. Ok, let's be honest. I think it's a artificial way of creating difficulty, rather than designing from the get-go a game whose mechanics make everything work.

From a mechanic point of view power, scaling is very, very difficult to balance properly (AI war being a prime example of that, it's saved by the numerous options it's getting and the fact that 10/10 ain't supposed to be won). When done, it has a high risk of giving the player a feeling of "it's always the same", and / or "whatever I do doesn't matter, as something unpredictable comes up to put me back at square one". SBR seems rather designed from the get-go with the idea of factions already in place, some being "early game" targets and others seem to be meant to be "end-game" targets. Adding another layer of scaling above that one sounds like much work for little benefit, with the constant risk of going overboard.

Also, lore-wise, it does not make sense from what I know of the game. Why would they have bonus stuff, and where does it come from ? Saucers just warping in to reinforced the survivors ? Why the hell did they not come in 5 turns sooner to save the AI I just killed ? If I kill the burlust first, the peltian get reinforcements but whatever reinforcement was meant for burlust does not come if the colony failed ? Why do they not retaliate seriously against people commiting genocide against them, if they have reserves ? In AI war, it makes sense - because the background of the game justifies it. In other games with "similar" mechanics (like most X-Com or jagged alliance clones, to cite only major ones), even the characters in the game lampshade that it does not make sense.


About the "problem" of moping, and the "51%" remaining, you're mentionning Civ which has multiple ways to avoid that particular issue:
- capturing cap is enough for military victory (self explainatory),
- science victory can be achieved (you've won wars = more technology + higher production, others can't reallly compete).
- diplomatic victory can be achieved (you've won wars = more money = buy votes).

That said, the "unit" AI in that game ain't really worth speaking about.

In SBR, there is a "subdue" mechanic in place already, which is clearly one of the ways to avoid moping (even if it's currently needing feedback). I suppose that plans for the diplomatic screen are going to show the other part. I don't see where scaling to the player is needed. Factions are already "supposed" to be scaled on the planet itself, and should gang up against you. If you beat them then ? You've effectively won the game ? Then you make it so the game recognizes it and gives you the victory you earned.