Early game problems (mainly military)

[Tolc]

So far I haven't seen that much of this game, because I always run into problems of the military sort. In my first game I made it to turn 100 before the Krolin decided to subjugate me with 11 saucers (they probably meant eradicate, 'cause that's what they did...) and I didn't have a stable enough economy to pay the in my opinion quite high costs for military buildings (had 1 or 2), so I gave up on that game. Next game was better, but not by much.

In my current game I have another (similar) problem: Started the game of by focusing on crown production this time in order to jumpstart the economy and build more barracks/guard posts. Turns out that I had two Thoraxian nests next to my starting location (ca. 2 territories away) that started bombarding me before I even hit turn 30(!). Due to their attack power of 512 and my one guardpost that I managed to build only having an AP of 77, I lost building after building, after building...

So my question to the shirts of various non-black colours: What am I doing wrong? How do you manage the early game? Does that happen to you as well? Am I just stupid/unlucky/a filthy Zenith?

[Shrugging Khan]

Nah. Just take a beating and wait for them to head off. Sure, you're basically back to where you started out from...but it's not like the game ever gets harder. Just keep trying.

[Zebeast46]

Generally I get attacked at turn 70 or so, my way to deal with the attacks is to save up a BUNCH of money (something like 300k) and then when you see the saucers about to warp in place your building accordingly. This strategy even works with the Peltians.

Edit: Well, I just realized that I play all my games on easy so this might not work on harder difficulties.

[Tolc]

Nah. Just take a beating and wait for them to head off. Sure, you're basically back to where you started out from...but it's not like the game ever gets harder. Just keep trying.

They leave on their own after a while? Ok, but still: I think it's a bit discouraging if you're new to the game...

Generally I get attacked at turn 70 or so, my way to deal with the attacks is to save up a BUNCH of money (something like 300k) and then when you see the saucers about to warp in place your building accordingly. This strategy even works with the Peltians.

Edit: Well, I just realized that I play all my games on easy so this might not work on harder difficulties.

I play on Normal so there might be differences. But aren't you just doing nothing for 50+ turns then in order to get that amount of crowns? That sounds rather boring to me...

In other news: I started yet another game and it seems like I got a bit lucky with my start this time (no incident involving me and two throraxian nests that I had the means to remove so far...*knocks on wood*).

[kasnavada]

Saucers "holo" time is reduced when at higher difficulty.

About Peltians, once you've unlocked the "crop = money" social advance, you've won the game more or less.

[Zebeast46]

Nah. Just take a beating and wait for them to head off. Sure, you're basically back to where you started out from...but it's not like the game ever gets harder. Just keep trying.

They leave on their own after a while? Ok, but still: I think it's a bit discouraging if you're new to the game...

Generally I get attacked at turn 70 or so, my way to deal with the attacks is to save up a BUNCH of money (something like 300k) and then when you see the saucers about to warp in place your building accordingly. This strategy even works with the peltians

Edit: Well, I just realized that I play all my games on easy so this might not work on harder difficulties.

I play on Normal so there might be differences. But aren't you just doing nothing for 50+ turns then in order to get that amount of crowns? That sounds rather boring to me...

In other news: I started yet another game and it seems like I got a bit lucky with my start this time (no incident involving me and two throraxian nests that I had the means to remove so far...*knocks on wood*).

Okay, after recently playing a game as the peltians, I tried to use my strategy again (and this was on easy) and on turn 80 or so the freaking Burlusts teleport in and completely annihilate me, turns out that it is rather hard to save up a reasonable reserve of cash. I decided to mantis the fact that these attacks could easily wipe you out.

[Gwmngilfen]

In my current game I have another (similar) problem: Started the game of by focusing on crown production this time in order to jumpstart the economy and build more barracks/guard posts. Turns out that I had two Thoraxian nests next to my starting location (ca. 2 territories away) that started bombarding me before I even hit turn 30(!). Due to their attack power of 512 and my one guardpost that I managed to build only having an AP of 77, I lost building after building, after building...

IIRC the rogue thoraxian nests won't attack you until you enter their territory, so you should be safe from them until you're ready to take them on. Of course, if you meant the *actual* Thoraxians, that's a different matter

I managed to avoid getting blasted by the Boarines in my current game by pulling in an ally (I helped the Evucks when they were under attack, so they returned the favour). Since I did this during the 10-turn incident warning, when the saucers warped in, they mostly went for the Evucks (evil laugh) and my paltry defenses could handle the few that came my way,

Currently that game is somewhat stalled because I can't make headway against the Thoraxians (see my other post on that stalemate). So, I suspect you're possibly unlucky there - but I agree an early-game wipeout is disheartening for new players. Maybe agression should be delayed until turn X, where X > 0 if difficulty < Hard?

[Tolc]

In my current game I have another (similar) problem: Started the game of by focusing on crown production this time in order to jumpstart the economy and build more barracks/guard posts. Turns out that I had two Thoraxian nests next to my starting location (ca. 2 territories away) that started bombarding me before I even hit turn 30(!). Due to their attack power of 512 and my one guardpost that I managed to build only having an AP of 77, I lost building after building, after building...

IIRC the rogue thoraxian nests won't attack you until you enter their territory, so you should be safe from them until you're ready to take them on. Of course, if you meant the *actual* Thoraxians, that's a different matter

I managed to avoid getting blasted by the Boarines in my current game by pulling in an ally (I helped the Evucks when they were under attack, so they returned the favour). Since I did this during the 10-turn incident warning, when the saucers warped in, they mostly went for the Evucks (evil laugh) and my paltry defenses could handle the few that came my way,

Currently that game is somewhat stalled because I can't make headway against the Thoraxians (see my other post on that stalemate). So, I suspect you're possibly unlucky there - but I agree an early-game wipeout is disheartening for new players. Maybe agression should be delayed until turn X, where X > 0 if difficulty < Hard?

Interesting, I didn't know that and yes, I meant the rogue nests, sorry. I had not expanded to their territory, but unfortunately they attacked me nevertheless...(see the attached save)

[kasnavada]

I'm beginning to be dubious about the whole "no unit" thing.

About this thread, for a solution, what do you guys think of making offensive building costs a function of the number of already existing buildings ? Also, of the position of the offensive itself ? And its type ? Or maybe just one condition, or 2 ?

For example, building 2-3 barracks in your starting might cost maybe 3000k, whereas building a lot of them to prepare for an assault would cost significantly more ?

I think it would ease a lot early game, while seriously limiting end-game scaling. Now that I think of it, that could actually apply to every building.

[topper]

I'm beginning to be dubious about the whole "no unit" thing.

About this thread, for a solution, what do you guys think of making offensive building costs a function of the number of already existing buildings ? Also, of the position of the offensive itself ? And its type ? Or maybe just one condition, or 2 ?

For example, building 2-3 barracks in your starting might cost maybe 3000k, whereas building a lot of them to prepare for an assault would cost significantly more ?

I think it would ease a lot early game, while seriously limiting end-game scaling. Now that I think of it, that could actually apply to every building.

I think that I dislike this solution? Punishing expansion (we need some punishment for balance) can make a game feel less fun, and this game already punishes large city sizes.

I would prefer a more organic solution, where if you hit certain milestones of number of military buildings, it triggers a buildup of the counter in your enemies cities.

[nas1m]

I'm beginning to be dubious about the whole "no unit" thing.

About this thread, for a solution, what do you guys think of making offensive building costs a function of the number of already existing buildings ? Also, of the position of the offensive itself ? And its type ? Or maybe just one condition, or 2 ?

For example, building 2-3 barracks in your starting might cost maybe 3000k, whereas building a lot of them to prepare for an assault would cost significantly more ?

I think it would ease a lot early game, while seriously limiting end-game scaling. Now that I think of it, that could actually apply to every building.

I think that I dislike this solution? Punishing expansion (we need some punishment for balance) can make a game feel less fun, and this game already punishes large city sizes.

I would prefer a more organic solution, where if you hit certain milestones of number of military buildings, it triggers a buildup of the counter in your enemies cities.

This is more like it in my book. AI progress style .

[topper]

This is more like it in my book. AI progress style .

Exactly. I'm sure something similar is already on the plan when they work on the AI, we just need to be patient.

[kasnavada]

I don't like what the AI progress style of advancement would do on a 4X style game.

It makes everything move at the pace the player moves at. It removes all sense of having to surpass them, removes sense of competition and so on, and makes the AI completely passive. Actually, it's part of my lesser liked AI War design parts, that it's completely responsive to what you do. It fits with the theme though, so can't really be removed. About that 4X, there is no theme suggesting that they'd all wait for you. The AI already can't win (AFAIK)... so yeah, if the game's AI is designed for that, that sounds like a game I'd want to avoid.


About what I proposed, the whole point is to avoid problems associated with large cities, and to counter expansion hard, and to punish players for overexpanding. That's a heavy trends in current 4X because of a whole lot of reasons. The "main" one, IMO, is that not having any counter-balance for expansion leads, after a while, to a deterioratation of the mechanics into (boring) clicky grindfests by mid or end-game.

[topper]

This game should move along just fine independent of player pace, the overall momentum of the races building up and bickering with each other and you ensures that. Do you play AI War with no AIP over time?

Civ5 has similar mechanics if you are headed towards a conquest victory, they denounce you and ally together to fight you.

The AIs responding to player expansion is a way more interesting solution than just cranking up the building price. With an increasing AI response the closer the player gets to victory, the AI cant snipe a victory away from you,so it can only destroy you. The game can be interesting and difficult even at the very end if the AIs can respond to growing player power.

[Shrugging Khan]

In any case, I'd consider it a harsh failing if the AI did not respond to growing player power. At least for any Victory Type that would end up affecting the AIs.